What do you think of MP Ken Livingstone and Labour then.

[Smoke&Slide]

I know this is a hot topic at the moment, he has come out with these anti-semetic messages about Jews.Personally speaking i think he is an idiotic tool.He has said anti-semetic mesages for about 30 years according to the Daily Mail.He won't apologise because he thinks he is telling the truth.He is a racist and don't like jews.And as for mentioning Hitler what an absolute idiot for saying that.Jeremy Corbyn should be sacked because he employed him and most likely knows what he is like.There have been 12 cases of anti-semitism in the labour party since Corbyn was employed there.Ed Milliband stood in and stopped Ken from writing an autobiography about the Nazi's.Good on you Ed nice one.We don't want trash like this running England.Boot them all out.

 

[Liquid]

Where would you propose booting these Englishmen to?

 

[Smoke&Slide]

Well when i boot Ken Livingston up the the bum with my size 9 boots, i hope he lands on the moon and doesn't come back.He is also anti-zionist too and that means he doesn't want Jews living on this earth.Zionist means that Jews living together in some place and mean no harm to anyone.It is idiots like Livingston and Corbyn and other same thinking people in the party that cause the trouble.We dont need these people running the country.As they are racist.That goes for anyone else too who is racist in our country.We don't want you here anymore go away.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Which Anti-semetic messages are we talking about here?

 

[Smoke&Slide]

Have a read of this Matskimonk.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...don-mayor-publishing-views-autobiography.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36180572

 

[Johnnypenso]

I don't know anything about Livingston and whether he's anti-semitic or not but the historical record seems clear:

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v13/v13n4p29_weber.html

On this basis of their similar ideologies about ethnicity and nationhood, National Socialists and Zionists worked together for what each group believed was in its own national interest. As a result, the Hitler government vigorously supported Zionism and Jewish emigration to Palestine from 1933 until 1940-1941, when the Second World War prevented extensive collaboration.

The SS was particularly enthusiastic in its support for Zionism. An internal June 1934 SS position paper urged active and wide-ranging support for Zionism by the government and the Party as the best way to encourage emigration of Germany's Jews to Palestine. This would require increased Jewish self-awareness. Jewish schools, Jewish sports leagues, Jewish cultural organizations -- in short, everything that would encourage this new consciousness and self-awareness - should be promoted, the paper recommended.

The official SS newspaper, Das Schwarze Korps, proclaimed its support for Zionism in a May 1935 front-page editorial: "The time may not be too far off when Palestine will again be able to receive its sons who have been lost to it for more than a thousand years. Our good wishes, together with official goodwill, go with them."/10 Four months later, a similar article appeared in the SS paper: /11

I don't think the Nazi's had the Jews best interests at heart, I believe they just wanted them gone and out of Germany. but the fact remains that, for a few years, Hitler and the Nazis supported Zionism and the establishment of a Jewish state.

 

[Smoke&Slide]

This is what Zionism means.This is taken from a dictionary by the way.

Zionism
ˈzʌɪənɪz(ə)m/
noun

1. 1.
   a movement for (originally) the re-establishment and (now) the development and protection of a Jewish nation in what is now Israel. It was established as a political organization in 1897 under Theodor Herzl, and was later led by Chaim Weizmann.
2. 2.
   (in southern Africa) a religious movement represented by a group of independent Churches which practise a form of Christianity incorporating elements of traditional African beliefs.

 

[Famine]

Boot them all out.

For an opinion? You want to kick people out of the country for having and expressing an opinion?

Have you even begun to think about how that would work? You'd need legislation about what qualifies as acceptable opinion, criminalising some kinds of expression. Once that's in place, what's to stop the majority from making more and more kinds of expression illegal, deporting those who dissent?

For instance, I think that people who continually mangle the English language on forums despite being warned repeatedly about it should be kicked out of the country.

i ... anti-semetic ... mesages ... jews ... labour party ... Nazi's ... i ... the moon ... It'sots ... anti-zionist ... dont

Oh, snap.

Then to cap it all off you quote the Daily Mail! The paper surrounded by, steeped in and an overt supporter of fascism, national socialism and Hitler himself!

 

[Liquid]

I don't think the Nazi's had the Jews best interests at heart, I believe they just wanted them gone and out of Germany. but the fact remains that, for a few years, Hitler and the Nazis supported Zionism and the establishment of a Jewish state.

It's one of those topics where it is sometimes often difficult to have a serious, academic or analytical discussion without falling back on the pop cultural opinion. It's as though for a lot of people it's "How can you describe [x] as anything other than a monster?" with no deviation permitted.

 

[Smoke&Slide]

I am not a supporter of what Hitler did to those Jews pal.I don't like hitler, never have and never will.He was a nasty murdering scumbag.Don't ever accuse me of being a Nazi, Hitler supporter ever.

 

[Johnnypenso]

I am not a supporter of what Hitler did to those Jews pal.I don't like hitler, never have and never will.He was a nasty murdering scumbag.Don't ever accuse me of being a Nazi, Hitler supporter ever.

Yes he was, but did you read the quotes I provided showing that Hitler did support Zionism?

 

[Famine]

I am not a supporter of what Hitler did to those Jews pal.I don't like hitler, never have and never will.He was a nasty murdering scumbag.Don't ever accuse me of being a Nazi, Hitler supporter ever.

No idea who you're addressing here, but you clearly didn't read my subtle hint...

hitler

 

[Smoke&Slide]

I did read that mate yeah, it's obvious that at some time hitler turned on these people.I don't know when though.Sorry Famine i meant to say boot out the anti-semetic and anti zionist people out of the labour party that's all.Not literally everybody.

 

[TenEightyOne]

Yes he was, but did you read the quotes I provided showing that Hitler did support Zionism?

History seems to disagree with you.

The official German line under Hitler was that they did not support the creation of Israel... and that's the basis of Zionism by definition, it's Israel-ism in English.

Hitler had an interest in removing Jews from Germany to, amongst other places, the Palestinian Mandate. The scheme whereby Jews handed over their property (to later be bought back as a "foreign export") that began in 1932 did not have Hitler's support until around 1938.

 

[Liquid]

I am not a supporter of what Hitler did to those Jews pal.I don't like hitler, never have and never will.He was a nasty murdering scumbag.Don't ever accuse me of being a Nazi, Hitler supporter ever.

Yes he was, but did you read the quotes I provided showing that Hitler did support Zionism?

Disingenuously, seeing it as an opportunity to remove the Jews from Germany rather than an explicit desire to see a peaceful homeland for Jewish people.

And I'm pretty sure it wasn't an official policy, if ever at all, until the late 1930s after Kristallnacht and all the other atrocities concentrated on actually harming Jews rather than assisting them in moving elsewhere.

It's inescapable that Hitler did not like Jews and Judaism so whether that would still class as true Zionism is up for debate.

 

[TenEightyOne]

It's inescapable that Hitler did not like Jews and Judaism so whether that would still class as true Zionism is up for debate.

Zionism is (as I've said) the belief that Israel (Zion) should be created for the Jews. German policy was explicitly against this. Red Ken is, once again, wrong.

 

[Smoke&Slide]

Actually no Hitler didn't support Zionism because he wouldn't have killed all the jews would he eh.Pretty obvious really what a duh brain i am.

 

[Liquid]

Zionism is (as I've said) the belief that Israel (Zion) should be created for the Jews. German policy was explicitly against this. Red Ken is, once again, wrong.

I agree with you but as I said just before, it's one of those topics where it's difficult to have a serious discussion at all so playing devil's adovcate to advance the debate probably isn't wise.

 

[Famine]

jews ... i

Sure, keep ignoring me. Let's see how far that gets you.

 

[Johnnypenso]

History seems to disagree with you.

The official German line under Hitler was that they did not support the creation of Israel... and that's the basis of Zionism by definition, it's Israel-ism in English.

Hitler had an interest in removing Jews from Germany to, amongst other places, the Palestinian Mandate. The scheme whereby Jews handed over their property (to later be bought back as a "foreign export") that began in 1932 did not have Hitler's support until around 1938.

You put the wrong link in there. You refer to history but the link goes to the BBC.

At it's heart, Zionism is the establishment of a Jewish homeland. As I said, I don't think Hitler had their best interests at heart, he just wanted them gone because he hated them, but it doesn't change the fact that technically it was Zionism.

Actually no Hitler didn't support Zionism because he wouldn't have killed all the jews would he eh.Pretty obvious really what a duh brain i am.

Brilliant response.

 

[TenEightyOne]

You put the wrong link in there. You refer to history but the link goes to the BBC.

...and series of quotes from a Yale History Professor explaining why Livingstone is wrong.

As I said, I don't think Hitler had their best interests at heart, he just wanted them gone because he hated them, but it doesn't change the fact that technically it was Zionism.

No, it's far from it.

 

[Smoke&Slide]

I didn't know the Daily Mail were like that.I don't like their views and i am all for free expression.I don't have any problem with that at all Famine.And as for my outburst I should read properly before saying something.Again my fault.As for spelling mistakes etc.I need to do a spelling and grammar course at college.

 

[Famine]

At it's heart, Zionism is the establishment of a Jewish homeland. As I said, I don't think Hitler had their best interests at heart, he just wanted them gone because he hated them, but it doesn't change the fact that technically it was Zionism.

I think that, at best, you can say that part of Zionism overlapped with part of Hitler's goals - the part of getting Jews out of Germany was the bit he liked and since the Zionist were wanting Jews to move into the Mandate (which pissed off the British, who were losing control of the region), it was a happy alignment of goals.

But let's not pretend that Hitler was anything but a raging anti-Semite and rose to power on a platform of extermination of Jews, not relocation of them. Livingstone (who has an "e" on the end of his name, for @Smoke&Slide's reference) commented that Hitler supported Zionism before he 'went mad and killed 6 million of them', which is straight up inaccurate.

i ... i

*sigh*

 

[Johnnypenso]

...and series of quotes from a Yale History Professor explaining why Livingstone is wrong.

No, it's far from it.

I didn't say Livingstone was right nor did I say that the Nazis had the Jews best interests at heart. What I said was that Hitler and his minions supported establishing a Jewish state and getting the Jews out of Germany which is the definition of Zionism. Not an altruistic, "hey guys we really want you to have your own country", Zionism, but more of a, "Get lost or we'll kill you", Zionism.

The historical record is clear and back up by numerous official statements from Hitler and various high ranking party officials.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v08/v08p372_Ries.html

Although Zionists today are loath to admit it publicly, the fact remains that the Zionist movement, during the period leading up to the Second World War, worked closely with the National Socialist government in Germany to solve the so-called Jewish question. Needless to say, professional historians have largely neglected this surprising cooperation. Two works by Jewish journalists, Lenni Brenner's Zionism in the Age of the Dictators and Edwin Black's The Transit Agreement, have dealt with the aspects of it, but their books must now be regarded as superseded by Francis R. Nicosia'sThe Third Reich and the Palestine Question, the first (and probably definitive) study of National Socialist Germany's Palestine policy in the 1930's.

On August 25, 1933, the Ministry of Economics issued a circular to all German currency control offices informing them of the recently concluded agreement with the Jewish Agency for Palestine. Known as the Haavara, or Transfer Agreement, it tied the emigration of Jews to Palestine to the sale of the German goods. By permitting each Jew who indicated a willingness to emigrate to Palestine the opportunity to take along a fixed portion of assets in the form of German goods, Germany's tight currency restrictions were circumvented, while the depressed export economy of the Reich received a much needed stimulus. Above all, the arrangement greatly promoted the removal of Jews from Germany, a principal domestic goal of the Hitler regime.

The Haavara was extortion pure and simple, but I'm sure the millions of Jews who died in WW2 would have preferred to be extorted and living in Israel than the alternative.

But let's not pretend that Hitler was anything but a raging anti-Semite and rose to power on a platform of extermination of Jews, not relocation of them. Livingstone (who has an "e" on the end of his name, for @Smoke&Slide's reference) commented that Hitler supported Zionism before he 'went mad and killed 6 million of them', which is straight up inaccurate. *sigh*

You quoted me with this response and I've made it quite clear that there was no altruistic motive behind the Nazi enthusiasm for getting rid of the Jews by extorting them and sending them off to the desert.

 

[Johnnypenso]

delete double

 

[Famine]

You quoted me with this response and I've made it quite clear that there was no altruistic motive behind the Nazi enthusiasm for getting rid of the Jews by extorting them and sending them off to the desert.

Indeed - but neither was Hitler's support of that aspect of Zionism a support of Zionism.

 

[TenEightyOne]

What I said was that Hitler and his minions supported establishing a Jewish state

Which is incorrect.

What I said was that Hitler and his minions supported establishing a Jewish state and getting the Jews out of Germany which is the definition of Zionism.

And getting Jews out of Germany (leaving their property behind, incidentally), isn't the definition of Zionism.

The historical record is clear and back up by numerous official statements from Hitler and various high ranking party officials.

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v08/v08p372_Ries.html

None of which are proved in Nicosia's book. Here's a review of the same book by somebody else.

The facts do stand that German written policy explicitly spoke against the creation of a Jewish state and that Germany was therefore anti-Zionist, however many writers try to conflate Haavara and Zionism.

 

[Furinkazen]

Have a read of this Matskimonk.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...don-mayor-publishing-views-autobiography.html

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-36180572

You just quoted the Daily Mail as a source. Congratulations on not just shooting yourself in the foot but also lighting a grenade, dropping it on your foot, and then super-glueing it to your foot.

 

[Johnnypenso]

None of which are proved in Nicosia's book. Here's a review of the same book by somebody else.

The facts do stand that German written policy explicitly spoke against the creation of a Jewish state and that Germany was therefore anti-Zionist, however many writers try to conflate Haavara and Zionism.

Your source:

Hitler described Zionism as a ‘great movement’ which had resolved his ‘indecision’ as to whether or not the Jews were a separate people. [A Hitler, Mein Kampf, James Murphy, April 1942, p. 41][op. cit. p.184] He certainly doubted Zionism’s ability or even sincerity in wishing to build a Jewish State in Palestine but he was no opponent. On the contrary Hitler supported those who saw ‘the utility of Zionism in a future National Socialist state.’ [2:72] In January 1938 Hitler made a specific commitment to continued Jewish emigration to Palestine.’ Hitler ruled that ‘Jewish emigration from Germany should continue to be promoted with all possible means, and it should be directed in the first instance to Palestine.’

In the debates over Ha'avarah [Edwin Black, The Transfer Agreement] Hitler consistently supported its continuance against growing opposition from the Interior and Foreign Ministries.

The SD (Security Service of the SS) main worry was the danger to Jewish emigration from Britain’s restrictive immigration policy in Palestine rather than an independent Jewish state. [2:140]As late as July 1939 Hitler was still firmly supportive of Ha'avarah and Jewish emigration to Palestine. [2:142]

The Nazis support of Zionism was partly because they also saw it as a white settler colonial movement. Leopold von Mildenstein, head of the SD's Jewish department, went on a six-month visit to Palestine in 1933. This was followed, from 26th September to 9th October 1934, by a series of 12 articles in Goebbel’s paper Der Angriff. [Jacob Boas, A Nazi Travels to Palestine, History Today, January 1980, p.35] which waxed lyrical about Jewish settlement in Palestine.

Alfred Rosenberg, the Nazis Minister for the Eastern Territories was Hitler’s favourite theoretician. Rosenburg argued that ‘Zionism must be vigorously supported in order to encourage a significant number of German Jews to leave for Palestine or other destinations.’ [1:25] He was also fond of citing the Zionists’ own statements:

 

[Smoke&Slide]

It's obvious the press have nothing to do, so they twist a story and put it out there for everyone to see.They have taken what Ken Livingstone has said out of context and blown it out of proportion again.Well done the press for trying to screw up the labour party for which they are trying to get votes in the next election congratulations on that NOT.