What would make sports car racing better?

[Mr. Boy]

I read an article once that complained that the Prototype class of Le Mans was killing the sport. The one-way domination of Audi in Le Mans made the P1 class boring, while the factory Corvettes were having some entertaining competition with the Prodrive Ferraris. This suggests that the Prototypes should be done away with, leaving the more appealing production-car based GT1 and GT2 classes.

My opinion: The 2004 and 2005 Le Mans races were very good. The 2004 races had competition amongst the privateer R8s (the Japanese and British R8s finished on the same lap), while the in the 2005 race, for the first time ever, the R8 was challenged at Le Mans. The Pescarolo-Judd finished 2 laps behind the American Champion Audi. And in America, Champion Audi has been having good racing with the Dyson Racing cars. So it looks as if the prototype class is on the up. But the Audi R10 will be racing this year, so it looks like it will be one way domination once again.

I think that if the ACO abolishes the prototypes, then companies like Courage and Judd would go out of business. Car companies enter factory teams in racing mainly to advertise their brand. Right now, the only factories that are taking a whack at Le Mans are Audi, Chevrolet and Aston Martin (dunno if they will be racing again this year). And sports car endurance racing isn't an entertainment and marketing oriented form of motorsports like F1 and Nascar. Its just pure sport. The guys who race there don't do it for fame or cash. They do it because they love cars and racing. For me, there just needs to be good competition, even if its just between two privateer cars.

What do you think would increase the marketing and entertainment value of sports car racing? (if you think it needs any).

 

[Kylehnat]

The problem with prototypes (particularily P1) is that they are hideously expensive to run, so without factory-backing, it's just too expensive for most teams to even consider. So, they stay in the GT classes, running spec-cars which are easier to work with, less expensive to fix, and more durable. For a more competitive P1 class, more manufacturers need to get involved.

The P1 battle in ALMS between Champion and Dyson is actually very competitive. Still, with only two teams, if Dyson fails (which they do frequently), then Audi can drive home in reverse.

Sports car racing is my second-favorite motorsport (after F1). It has no real public interest because there aren't a whole lot of crashes or driver fights a la NASCAR. That said, there is a core group of die-hard fans (much like NHL fans) who will keep the sport going.

I can't think of a more blissful place to be than at the track on ALMS weekend, when the engines fire up and break the morning silence as they head out for practice. If people don't want to appreciate that, it's their loss

 

[Sbatts6]

I hate to keep my answer short but i agree with you 100% Kyle. I just think a little bit more factory support would be awesome

 

[YSSMAN]

If anything, the biggest thing that needs adjustment in racing is the difference between the racecars and the street cars in which they are based uppon. Cars in the GT and GTS classes appeal to me because they share many of their bits and pieces with cars on the street, and they even look like them. That said, they still arent the same differences that we had even 10, 20, or 30 years ago.

Way, way back in the day they used to make the homogenization rules so that street versions of the cars had to be made. Thats why we had cars like the Camaro Z/28, Boss 302 Mustang, Dodge Daytona, and even newer models like the Mercedes-Benz CLK DTM and Maseratti MC12. That gave people the oppertunity to own and drive the cars their favorite drivers took around the track, and let some people at home be the race drivers they always wanted to be.

Other than that, my only other complaint is how outrageous F1 has gotten, which makes it unappealing to some American fans. NASCAR encourages competition by controlling the cars and setting standards for every team. It keeps costs down, and competition compeditive. Thats why you dont see Chevrolet or Ford completely dominating like Ferrari or Renault every season...

 

[mwoodski]

Three words. Bring back GTP.

 

[Layla's Keeper]

To those of you who've asked for more factory support I propose this question.....

What encourages the manufacturer's to participate?

I'll tell you the answer; Return On Investment. To a manufacturer, a racing program is an investment. Usually, the investment is in one of two things: marketing or R&D (research and development).

As the racing becomes more specialized and more removed from production cars, the marketing aspect becomes more critical.

So, what a manufacturer looks at when they consider a racing program is X amount of exposure/publicity vs Y amount of dollars.

In top rank prototypes, Y is considered too large an amount (because of the firmly entrenched Audi effort) and X is considered too small for the manufacturers to come play.

A good example is Cadillac. Caddy, Katech, and Wayne Taylor all took one look at the Audi engine and their engine and decided it'd cost too much money to develop a purpose built engine to go fight Audi. Instead, they invested in building the CTS-V into a dominant car in the then-growing Speed World Challenge, got a championship in their second year of trying, and became a star car of the series.

Return On Investment.

As prototype costs, and the costs of competition, rise, the manufacturers take a longer look at the ALMS. Already, as the Porsche Spyder LMP2 program proves uncannily fast, many of the chassis builders who'd built new-spec LMP2 such as Lucchini, Picchio, Kudzu, and Radical, are scaling back production and development programs, or even withdrawing completely.

What happened with the LMP1 rules is a perfect example of how absolutely wrong the ACO's methods are. LMP1 rules went into effect two or three years ago, when NO CARS HAD BEEN BUILT. The ALMS grandfathered LMP900/675 cars just so that they'd have a P1 grid.

At best, the ACO had handshake agreements from some of their stronger teams to purchase LMP1 cars as they came online, but there were no signs of new team or manufacturer participation and there was nothing in the new rules to improve on the poor return on investment of a P1 program.

Rules stability (that means no changing the rules according to how much the French want Pescarolo to win). A level playing field. A ruleset that makes the cars good value for the money. And quality exposure (good marketing, television, and media packages) will ALL create good sports car racing. The cars will come once the sanctioning body creates a viable series.

Even though the cars aren't everyone's favorites, GARRA's Rolex series has started from the ground up on all of the points I've mentioned and the cars have come all on their own. The same that works for a regional sports car series under a national sanction will work for a national sports car series under an international sanction.

 

[JohnBM01]

I think in terms of Americans into sportscar racing, what I think would be a start is to stop thinking about passing all the time. Stop thinking that all racing should be like NASCAR because these are people who actually understand what racing on the limit is like. Passing is earned, not granted. The 2005 race "very good?" It was a classic to me. Second thing, as much as I hate saying it, don't be so much like "oh, they win all the races all the time." The idea I usually give myself is that when Pontiac kept winning races in the GARRA, American race fans weren't complaining. When Corvettes were dominating ALMS GT1 ranks, nobody complained. But if something like "oh, the Audis keep winning these damn races" or outside of sportscar racing, "why is it that Ferrari and Renault keep winning F1 races?" So, perhaps is all this about American hating non-American brands winning all the time or something? What if Chevrolet entered Formula One and beat every one? Are people here in the States going to say "damn Chevrolet! Keep winning all the races!" If it's like this, then I'd hope all the prejudice among foreign and domestic (as in America) brands in world-class racing.

The thing I love most about sportscar racing of any kind is diversity. That is a formula I would not want to tamper with. You know, I might even say that some more GTP racing would be nice. Weird idea I had was to have certain racing manufacturers come off with turnkey GTP cars and drop in an engine to make them go. They don't have to have GTP factory teams like Bentley in 2001-2003, Toyota in the late 1990s, or anything like that. It can be a team purchasing something of Courage or Riley, then have a team drop in a Judd V10 or something.

One thing REALLY got me into sportscar racing when I didn't have (then) Speedvision- just watching those GT1 machines of then. There used to be cars like the Panoz Esperante GT1, Lotus Elise GT1, even the Nissan R390 GT1. But if something like that were compete now, I think they'd be relegated to LMP1 or something. I'd likely would want to see these super versions of cars. I hated that I couldn't get something like Speedvision before Speed Channel's NASCAR-mania ruined everything for the network.

Just a few ideas to contribute. I only wished I had more good ideas.

 

[mwoodski]

I ment GTP of the 80's 90's. the super cool ones, not that Bently monstrosity.

 

[Layla's Keeper]

A common misconception, John, is that a lack of passing in sports car racing is a normal thing. This is something that the flat-bottom idiocy has brought about.

Back in the true GTP days that both myself and FireEmblem are talking about, the cars were laden with ground effects venturis and huge slick tires, instead of today's comparably narrow tires and flat bottom cars. The combo of wide tires and ground effects led to huge amounts of grip at all speeds that opened up amazing passing oppurtunities on all tracks. Road America, Mid Ohio, Mosport, Watkins Glen, and Lime Rock all made their name as blindingly fast and wickedly technical tracks that made the GTP cars come to life with their fast esses and elevation changes.

There were turnkey cars in those days, as well. You could go to many different chassis shops and buy competitive chassis and combine them with (most commonly) Chevy or Judd power. Also, the Porsche 962 was readily available as a customer car (in fact, in later years, purely available as a customer car) as revised for IMSA competition by Fabcar, Crawford, Akins, and several other shops.

The grip led to phenomeonal racing with high speeds and lots of passing, and the cars were still exotic and advanced. The PROBLEM was rapidly escalating costs. During the height of the GTP wars, the top teams were Tom Walkinshaw Racing (factory Jaguar - 2 cars)

Nissan Performance USA (factory Nissan, 3 cars, plus 4th factory supported)

Dan Gurney's All American Racers (factory Toyota, 2 cars)

In those 8 cars, there were approx 30million dollars tied up in CAR COST ALONE. It cost hundreds of millions to campaign the cars over the season. In one event, two Nissans and a Toyota were involved in heavy crash. Gurney was heard to comment, "There's 15million I'll never get back."

GTP was EXPENSIVE. It got great return on investment for the factories able to play, but at the end of the era, only the big guns of GM, Nissan, and Toyota were able to play at the front of the field.

The exposure from GTP came from the fans loving the blindingly fast pulse pounding racing and coming in droves. The LMP's don't have that sort of draw because they are mechanically incapable of the racing that GTP provided and do not match the field size of the GTP heyday.

 

[mwoodski]

Heh, all those pics look like they were taken at lime rock's front stretch, i think, i live about an hour from there.

Anyways, I think the Nissan GTP ZX-Turbo is by far the most beautiful car ever built.


And to think, I wasn't born till 1990, just when GTP was going out....

 

[Layla's Keeper]

Actually, those pics were from the 1990 Road America at Elkhart Lake round of IMSA competition. However, RSC has some from Lime Rock races, too.

In fact, their IMSA section is pretty comprehensive.


http://www.racingsportscars.com/photo_imsa.html

I myself am also partial to the Nissan ZXT. Geoff Brabham to this day remains one of my all-time favorite sports car drivers.

 

[mwoodski]

Yeah, RSC is an awesome site, one race at fuji for WSC i belive was ont he day i was born! (March 11, 1990)

 

[JohnBM01]

Well, do you think it's possible to start a new-age GTP movement here in 2006? What has to happen to make it work?

I was getting around to the IMSA-type GTP race cars, but I'm more used to more of today's GTPs. I seen my first bit of sportscar racing in 1997 or 1998. I saw my all-time favorite race car, the Ferrari 333SP, win the Petit Le Mans with the Momo team. I'd say it's the best car to never win Le Mans. It's up there with the Panoz LMP-1 Roadster in terms of best cars to never win Le Mans. I highly respect GTPs, but I've never really seen them to appreciate them except for some televised vintage races. The Can-Am racers were also impressive. Now, if GTP were to make sort of a comeback, there's one factor- times have changed. Aerodynamics have surely changed. Cars will have to have smoother curves, better feeding of air to the engine, and a lot of other stuff. What could be lost in translation from the earlier times to today if they were to return? Something to think about if someone comes up with a 21st Century turnkey race car.

In terms of making really powerful versions of cars as race cars, take a look at this 1990s monster of a Corvette- http://www.4-lesco.com/pages4/car4sale6.html . This was the Chevrolet Corvette which competed in the 1990 24 Hours of Le Mans (since we're talking about GTPs, Jaguar won it all in 1990 with their awesome GTP racer. They've had more sportscar wins than their Formula One team EVER did). I just think it would be interesting if people created extreme versions of road-going cars again.

This is how I've grown up with sportscar racing. So, I don't think I've known it long enough to appreciate it more than I should.

 

[YSSMAN]

Being brought up watching NASCAR and old-school Indy Car Racing, I would suppose my view of auto-racing is a bit skewed when it comes to more than left-hand turns, lol.

As of late, my interests have turned to GT and F1 racing, but the lack of availability to watch in the US doesnt allow for too much viewing of the "more compeditive" racing. As of late, I've herd a lot about how limited Chevrolet has been in GT racing and it has put the car back in line with it's Prodrive 550 and DBR9 competition... Fair is fair I suppose... But there is a sense of American pride when American cars completely dominate, and when it is you who is winning, why would any American complain? I'm sure there were plenty of outcries in Japan, Britain, and France back when Ferrari won (what seemed like) ever single race on the F1 circuit, but I doubt you herd a peep from anyone in Modena...

...And I completely agree with Layla's Keeper... The investment into racing technology has to be worth it at some level, and thats why so many people have called for cost control and a movement back twards production-based vehicles.

Considering how much technology has come from racing over the years, I cant imagine what it would have been like if they didnt use production based cars. Disc brakes, independant suspensions, engine designs, and even tire compounds have all come directly from lessons learned at the track. Atleast in America, much of that came from NASCAR, Trans-Am, and GT racing, and I'm sure much of the same happened with European and Japanese cars as well.

Someone also mentioned a turn-key racing series, and there were rumors about that a while ago that had to do with a restructure of IRL and CART to make it more appealing to American companies and racers. The idea was to go back (way, way back) to the front-engined cars of the '50s and '60s and take off the majority of the special aero equipment that is on many of the cars we see today. It would have to become a showcase of power and performance, and would "enourage" better designs street engines as they would have to be production-based... Its kinda stupid, baisicly making a NASCAR-ified IRL, but the notion of using production engines is interesting.

If there is a series that is a good example of where (IMO) racing should be going, it is the SCCA SPEED World Challenge, with production-based vehicles that are "close" to models found on the street, and offer a pretty good ammount of competition between the different models, classes, and drivers. Other than that, the SCCA Showroom Stock C class races are rather interesting, along with touring/touring 3 classes as well...

 

[m.piedgros]

21st Century turn-key racecars? Daytona Prototypes are as close as it gets. And so long as GA keep the costs down, DP racing alone, forget those GT's, could turn itself into an International series (by which I mean they could run in Europe.) The DP's aren't exactly the pinnacle of automotive technology in racing, the way say... Audi LM P's are, but reading some of what Layla's Keeper has said about manufacturer involvement in racing, it'll take the ACO a lot more than Audi and Peugot's involvement in prototypes to keep that class going. How long 'till Intersport get screwed by yet another sanctioning body wanting them to build a new car? I think we all dream of some sort of super performance sports-prototype series (in my dreams, based around the Le Mans 24) that would have all sorts of manufacturer involvement but would have the status of F1, so that if costs kept climbing manufacturers would want to stay in, purely because of the status. Sports car racing as we know it can't, in my opinion achieve that, because manufacturers are looking for a return on their investment and if one enters F1, people around the world, racing fans or not, recognize that name. And would see a relationship between the manufacturer being involved in F1 and their street cars. Us edumacated folks wouldn't but be honest, you've seen Honda's adverts. Realistically, how do these multi-national corporations judge whether or not racing is a viable investment? You can't directly see a coralation of dollars invested in racing, and then money made because of it. Maybe it's not too late to start a sports car equivilant of F1. Whoever takes on the task would have to start at the bottom and work their way up. Grand-Am anyone?

m.piedgros

 

[Mt. Lynx]

ACO has taken a step towards more "carlike" cars, as of 2010, all P1 models has to have a closed top.

But what I think sportscar racing really need, is less aerodynamic grip, and more mechanical grip. IE, harder rules for downforce, looser rules on suspension, and alot more tyremanufacturers! I was happy to see Kumho at Le Mans, that means atleast they are interested.
Imagine having a tyrewar between Michelin, Bridgestone, Dunlop, Pirelli, BF Goodrich, Kumho, Yokohama, Good Year, Continental and Firestone in the same series! That would mean alot more grip, and alot more competition between the cars!

 

[m.piedgros]

I hate to drag up this old thread again but I'd like to make yet another comment. It seems racing goes on a cycle similar to that of the business cycle. Take this for instance. In the late 1960's sports and GT prototypes like Porsche, Ferrari and Matra were heavily backed in terms of "cash money" (to quote Wilmur Valderamma) and provided close classic sports car racing from Nurburgring to Sebring. In the 1970's, partly I'm sure do to oil prices, the race cars became less extravegant and more production based (GTO, GTU, TO, TU etc.) Because of costs. Then Can-Am started coming to the fore front of racing and money started pouring in. When Can-Am failed cars like the GTX Porsche 935's (production based turn-key racecars) were at the fore front. Than Group C and GTP racing started up and, like you pointed out Layla's Keeper, the dollars they came-a flying. When Group C / GTP racing failed, it was production based GT racing that took over once more. WSC prototype racing (changing from their original formula of Group C) started up which were cars that were built to spec of the GTP (known as GT1 cars, Nissan R390, Panoz Esperante etc.) in order to compete at Le Mans. In the early new millenium we've seen what I think could be the begining of the end of this Prototype style racing. In 2000 FACTORY Audi's faced FACTORY BMW's, FACTORY Panoz, FACTORY CADILLAC, and to a lesser extent EX-FACTORY Ferrari's along with a multitude of private engine and chassis/body constructors like Judd and Courage. Today, Audi has left the game essentially, leaving Champion to run the cars. Sadly, the only other manufacturer in Prototype racing is Porsche. Now, we expect to see Acura come in and there are rumors of more manufacturers going prototype racing. Is that really sustainable? By as early as 2010 will we be seeing production based GTP (not Group C GTP's) dominating sports car racing? In an era where if you are a road racer you HAVE to be in F1 and NASCAR is taking over the United States, is factory sports car racing doomed? In Europe they don't have factories running sports cars (they also have better taste in Motorsports for the most part IMO.) They are on the right track. Now I've always said that I love the concept of Audi and Porsche and Ferrari yadda, yadda, yadda pouring money into racing but I'm starting to believe that is unreasonable. I think if someone could find the median between GARRA and their Rolex Series, IMSA and ALMS, and ACO with LMS we could be seeing quality international sports car racing. We need some sort of cheap turn key cars (thanks GARRA) that are fast and exotic (the concept taken from Le Mans Prototype cars) but with a sanctioning body that don't change the rules every 30 seconds (I'm looking at you ACO) and can keep racing close (ALMS and GARRA get points on the board.) In my opinion the series should be based on the Le Mans 24 Hours (definitely the most significant 24 Hour race in the world) and should feature circuits from around the world. That may be an unachievable goal, but then how about National Championship's with International "all-star" races. Start the year at the Daytona 24. Give a break for one or two series' to start, then go to the Sebring 12 Hour. In June they'll meet at Le Mans with the best of the best from the year prior to battle it out to find the International Champion. Following that somewhere in August Watkins Glen could play host to a 6 hour. September would host a European race (sorry Petit Le Mans, there is no historical significance there, but, heck maybe the Petit could still hang around and act as an invite race for Daytona or something...) Now I'm just spouting ideas here but, I guess what my original purpose was. We need to find some way to get out of the cycle of REcycling sports car racing.

m.piedgros

 

[RACECAR]

I think for Sports car racing based around the ACO, this is all it needs, bottem Line:
stable rules that very seldomly change or require small updates.
why? this will solve every problem being seen now. this is what has made the Grand American Rolex Sports Car Series grow. teams see a competitive series that is a level playing field and rules don't change very often(or at all for that matter) so everyone gets an chance at winning. picture this:what if the LMP rules of 2000 didn't get changed and instead remained all the way to this year?. Cadillac would perhaps still be competing as would Riley Technoligies, Panoz would still perhaps have a Factory Prototype team and the European entries would be really big. i could be the only one thinking this but think about this expression: " if you keep changing the rules of the game and one player keeps winning that same game, no one will be interested anymore, but if you don't change the rules and others start winning at random, then everyone will want to play.

 

[Layla's Keeper]

Quick point, m.piedgros. WSC was created as an IMSA class for new flat-bottom open cockpit prototypes that used production engines. The idea was that production engines and mass-production chassis (that is, no dedicated factory chassis, ONLY chassis that everyone could buy) would keep costs down, and flat-bottoms and open cockpits would keep speeds safe for privateer drivers.

It worked quite well once the cars caught on, thanks to Riley&Scott, Ferrari, and Kudzu.

In Europe, Group C died out thanks to the Cat.1 regs, and Le Mans became a sort of glamourized GT race for privateers and their supercars. The first year after the collapse of Group C was 1994, and its grid was a mishmash of cars, including JSPC Toyota Group C cars in the early LMP1/C90 category, Dauer Porsche 962C's, Ferrari F40LM's, Bugatti EB110's, and Detomaso Panteras in LMGT1, and even the IMSA GTS class Nissan 300ZX's (one of which finished 5th overall).

GT1's regulations, obviously, were geared around a loose road car standard and in 1995 the supercars dominated with the fight tossing between Jaguar XJ220's, Ferrari F40LM's, and the eventual winners the McLaren F1.

Seeing that Le Mans would go to GT1 cars more easily than through the IMSA WSC cars (hobbled by their high drag bodywork and road going engines), Porsche, Mercedes-Benz, Nissan, Toyota, and others all took this route.

Meanwhile, the ACO was establishing their own ruleset for open cockpit cars which would become the modern LMP1. This ruleset allowed for racing engines, more radical aerodynamics, lighter weights, and dedicated factory cars.

So, when Audi got involved in 1998, they had their choice of open formulas, while most folks had invested serious dollars in one or the other. The R8 lucked out by being developed as both from the get go, so Audi didn't get caught out when the ACO - to most everyone's surprise - threw their weight behind LMP1 instead of continuing the fan favorite GT1 class.

 

[m.piedgros]

I prefered the WSC regs over GT1. I've always liked open-cockpit sports prototypes. From the Matra to the R10 I think they are all fantastic. What do you think though, about the idea of racing going in a cycle and where do you think the sustainable future for sports car / GT racing is going to come from? Will it spawn from DP style cars or GT1 style cars? Is LM P1/P2 sustainable be they closed or open cockpit? I agree with RACECAR in that in order for ACO/Le Mans based sports car racing to grow it needs stable rules. Which is my and many others major beef with the ACO.

m.piedgros

 

[RACECAR]

Quick point, m.piedgros. WSC was created as an IMSA class for new flat-bottom open cockpit prototypes that used production engines. The idea was that production engines and mass-production chassis (that is, no dedicated factory chassis, ONLY chassis that everyone could buy) would keep costs down, and flat-bottoms and open cockpits would keep speeds safe for privateer drivers.

It worked quite well once the cars caught on, thanks to Riley&Scott, Ferrari, and Kudzu.

In Europe, Group C died out thanks to the Cat.1 regs, and Le Mans became a sort of glamourized GT race for privateers and their supercars. The first year after the collapse of Group C was 1994, and its grid was a mishmash of cars, including JSPC Toyota Group C cars in the early LMP1/C90 category, Dauer Porsche 962C's, Ferrari F40LM's, Bugatti EB110's, and Detomaso Panteras in LMGT1, and even the IMSA GTS class Nissan 300ZX's (one of which finished 5th overall).

GT1's regulations, obviously, were geared around a loose road car standard and in 1995 the supercars dominated with the fight tossing between Jaguar XJ220's, Ferrari F40LM's, and the eventual winners the McLaren F1.

Seeing that Le Mans would go to GT1 cars more easily than through the IMSA WSC cars (hobbled by their high drag bodywork and road going engines), Porsche, Mercedes-Benz, Nissan, Toyota, and others all took this route.

Meanwhile, the ACO was establishing their own ruleset for open cockpit cars which would become the modern LMP1. This ruleset allowed for racing engines, more radical aerodynamics, lighter weights, and dedicated factory cars.

So, when Audi got involved in 1998, they had their choice of open formulas, while most folks had invested serious dollars in one or the other. The R8 lucked out by being developed as both from the get go, so Audi didn't get caught out when the ACO - to most everyone's surprise - threw their weight behind LMP1 instead of continuing the fan favorite GT1 class.

that would be 1999 actually because not only was audi running the R8R and R8C, but throughout the year there were three variations of the R8R, witch include the concept car, the Sebring car, and the Le mans car. http://www.mulsannescorner.com/audir8r-99.html