Whats next for Saturn?

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GM has a really great opportunity with Saturn, and I think they should take the brand alignment even further, and introduce even more models, I think that there could be a market here for the Corsa, to maybe compete with the Yaris, and it would blow that particular car out of the water, and if they could bring over the VXR as a redline, they would pretty much dominate that end of the car market in the performance sense. Another car that would be really great here would be the Signum, it looks fantastic, seems to have a decent amount of room in it, and the interior is great looking. 👍
The Tigra could be sold as an Astra here, and if the G6 is going RWD, i wouldn't see a problem with selling it here. The Zafira would work great against the Mazda 5 and Kia Rondo, I could see that selling quite a bit better than either of them.


What do all of you think about what GM could do with Saturn, and what are they really missing in terms of a U.S. Specific model?
 
saturn cant be all things to GM. its got a good thing going with the euro cars its now using.

but pontiac will always be GMs performance division. chevy the everyman division. (saturn and chevy are in close contact on this one as it is. so the VXR will be a pontiac version of the chevy before its a saturn IMO.

but as you say, with pontiac going rwd, there are some opportunities for saturn. the only thng really standing in thier way is that its a USDM brand. no growth outside the US forecast and as chevy is the worldwide brand, more cars and effort would be put into chevy than saturn. the US market is too congested with product to be really profitable in cars anymore (unless youre japanese)

AFAIC saturn is a lame duck.
 
Its okay for Saturn to be a US brand only because they're all Opels now! 💡 Saturn is no lame duck, its a brand with a new image, with a good product line, and with a long life ahead of it. You won't be seeing a Chevy or a pontiac that looks like an Opel at any time, because Saturns thing. Also i think its supposed to be AFAIK. ;)
 
Speaking on a global level, Saturn is now officially aligned with Opel/Vauxhall, which also shares a few models with Holden as well. With this deal we will likely see that as the chassis are replaced or updated, the Saturn lineup won't look too different than what is made available by their corresponding partners in the UK or in mainland Europe. Basically, it will be a process that will take several years, but it is already underway, clearly with the Aura (Vectra), VUE (Antara) and Astra (duh).

As to what I've understood will be happening:

Astra: The Astra as we know it right now will have a roughly three year stint in the US as the Delta-II model of the car is being designed. Built in Belgium, it will start arriving in the United States (at full capacity) officially in January, but some may sneak in well before then. The two-to-three year run won't likely see many changes outside of the possible addition of a diesel model and the near-certain Red Line version likely with the 260 BHP DIG I4 from the Sky Red Line. The updated Astra should bow in 2009, with an all new chassis, engine, and transmission lineup... Which will likely carry over the same basic options of several petrol I4 models, at least a diesel I4, a high-performance Red Line version, and presumably a hybrid as well.

Aura: The Aura as we know it will likely have a short lifespan as well. The next-generation Epsilon-II cars are already being tested in Europe to replace the current Vectra, so while that version may be due in 2009 across the Atlantic, we'll likely see our next Aura debut as a 2010 model. It will be a bit larger, a bit more roomy, will likely have more power, and a Red Line version doesn't seem out of the question. Diesel power and hybrid power is also a near-certainty as well. The larger question will likely be how the updated Chevrolet Malibu and the Epsilon-II Buick LaCrosse will effect it, as the Saturn must split the difference between them (remember; The Pontiac G6 is going RWD post-2011).

VUE: Don't expect much to change anytime soon. The only update I've heard coming down the pipe was the addition of a Two-Mode hybrid (similar to a Prius or Tahoe Hybrid), and presumably the addition of a six-speed automatic on the four-cylinder models. As of right now, I'm not sure if there are any plans to update the Theta chassis in the near-future.

Outlook: The Outlook has done marginally well for Saturn, simply put, the Buick Enclave has stolen the show for the Lambada triplets. The only major concern will be the new Chevrolet Traverse stealing too much of it's thunder, but outside of that no major changes are expected any time soon. My guess is that a DIG V6 will eventually be added, the styling will be updated to match that of the new Aura (come 2010), and the big rumor is that there may be a CUT (crossover utility truck) coming sometime soon.

Sky: All that I have heard as of late is that production of the Sky and Solstice will be moving to Bowling Green (alongside the Corvette) in the not-too-distant future. No major changes are to be expected, although with the Solstice likely receiving a coupe or targa option, I'd suspect the same for the Saturn. The big question is likely over how the Kappa chassis will survive as there are two main theories;

1) Kappa sticks around, moves to Kappa-II around 2012 or 2013, and may spawn some kind of Corvette... Likely depending on if the "true" Corvette stays FM or goes MR.
2) Kappa dies-out and gives way to the Alpha chassis, which will allow for a cheaper basis for a next-generation Coupe/Roadster.

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What would I like to see added?

The Corsa: All current plans put fourth by GM and accidentally leaked by the UAW point to the US getting a small Gamma-based vehicle for 2009 or 2010. This would likely mean that we will have a Corsa, no word on if the name will be the same, and we may in fact build the cars for other parts of the world if the dollar remains as weak as it is. I'm crossing my fingers for diesel power, as well as a light-boost turbo model, but we'll have to wait and see.

The Zafira: Similar to the Corsa, UAW contracts say that we're going to be building a Delta-II MPV, so its pretty much a case of connect the dots I'm afraid. I am uncertain, again, if the name will remain the same, but I'd suspect a diesel and turbo version, and possibly even a V6 should the Americans get their way when designing the vehicle.

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Lingering questions:

Q: Will Saturn get a Zeta model like everyone else seems to be?

A: No, probably not. Pontiac will likely end up with the most RWD offerings, Chevrolet with (presumably) just the Impala and Camaro, Buick with only the Park Avenue and possibly Velite, and Cadillac with their STS and DTS replacements. Saturn, much like Saab, will remain Zeta-free.

Q: What about Alpha?

A: Alpha seems like a more-likely chassis should Saturn/Vauxhall/Opel decide to do a small RWD car, but generally speaking, I doubt it happening in the US. The only Alpha Saturn we will likely see would be the Sky successor, that is, if they do not develop a Kappa-II chassis.

Q: What about trucks?

A: Its a tough question, but I'm under the assumption that Saturn will only offer the Outlook and VUE for the foreseeable future. Should Outlook sales slump too far, my guess is that only the VUE will remain, allowing for the Zafira to pick up where the Outlook left off.

Q: What about alternative fuels and hybrids?

A: Its a tough question because GM wants Chevrolet to be the volume-brand (like Toyota), but wants to make Saturn seem like an upscale brand that everyone can afford as well. My guess is that the Volt and all of it's stuff will remain Chevy-exclusive, will be sold all-over the world, and everyone else will have to get by on Two-Mode hybrid systems. The Two-Mode changeover won't likely come until closer to the end of the decade (knowing GM, it has to become cheaper for them to produce before they offer it everywhere). The only other change for the "greenies" would be diesel power, which I suspect would be GM's leading brand in the United States.
 
Its okay for Saturn to be a US brand only because they're all Opels now! 💡 Saturn is no lame duck, its a brand with a new image, with a good product line, and with a long life ahead of it. You won't be seeing a Chevy or a pontiac that looks like an Opel at any time, because Saturns thing. Also i think its supposed to be AFAIK. ;)

theres no scope for much further expansion is what i was getting at with the lame duck comment. saturn doesnt cover ground thats fresh for GM. its all being done by chevy, pontiac, opel etc. early nineties it had a viable mission. even a viable product. but lack of development killed saturn, and GM shoring up chevy and its other "core brands" is of far more import than saturn. GM would rather beat the imports (in this market at least) with chevy than saturn.

i like the current saturn range. but i dont see it going much beyond the four or five cars they currently sell.
 
It all likely depends on how GM decides to fracture the brands in the coming years. The current plans are choosing to align Pontiac, Buick and GMC brands into essentially one "brand" that offers a wide-range of products. It would be like a more luxurious and occasionally "sporty" version of the Chevrolet lineup that will essentially cover just about everything, but that being said, Saturn will likely end up a niche brand like Saab and Cadillac.

So, similar to rundowns that I've posted elsewhere:

- Chevrolet : Toyota
- Pontiac: Cheap BMW Alternative
- Saturn: Honda/Acura
- Buick: Lexus
- Saab: Audi and Volvo
- Cadillac: BMW and Mercedes

Note: GMC will be paired with Pontiac and Buick to form a "brand," HUMMER may do similar things with Cadillac.

Saturn won't likely expand too far, only where there clearly are wholes in the overall brand lineup... Where they know they can make sales. The addition of a true sub-compact, I suspect, will do wonders... As will the addition of an MPV. They won't directly reflect that of Vauxhall/Opel in every way, but they will come close-ish with the "core" models.
 
It is, but thats why they're rolling it in with Pontiac and Buick. The hope is that by offering a more luxurious version of the Silverado/Tahoe/Suburban with these other more luxurious cars (over Chevrolet) it will guarantee sales. Generally speaking though, it isn't hurting GM to have it there... GMC fans are die-hard folks, and no matter how similar they may be to a Chevrolet, they'd still pick the red letter vehicle.
 
But.... it makes no sense.
emot-psypop.gif
My brain hurts. They even look the same as a Caddy.
 
i would argue that the honda and toyota are the same market and therefore so is saturn and chevy. i see very little differentiation between them (prefer aura over malibu) and in the future i can see saturn getting scuppered for chevy models.

put another way, i think they are all appliances until you start talking mercedes, cadillac, BMW, saab, hummer, lexus etc.
 
I repped YSS for that beast #4 post.👍

I don't quite get the whole concept of being "paired" like you said GMC would be with Pontiac and Buick.

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As for the different badges competing, I would say that Chevy has a ways to got to reach Toyota any time soon. Although their image just doesn't really seem to say "Toyota competitor." I would just leave Toyota alone and try to keep Chevy as "The American Brand" and compete with Ford.

Pontiac really just loosely competes with the German brands, as it seems to have a different character, probably closest to Mercedes IMO.

If GM is aiming for it, I wouldn't be surprised if the next Saturns effectively competed with Honda.



And Buick I would say has no chance at Lexus. They should probably stick to trying to bridge the gap between Lexus and what Chevy offers. I just don't see an American badge competing there, partly on a technical basis, but mostly on price. A $80,000 Buick just doesn't suit my fancy.

Saab: I think you are spot on and they are doing it effectively.

I don't really know what the point of Cadillac is. It seems to be trying to be Buick and Pontiac at the same time. It seems that GM is aiming them at BMW, but they have quite a bit of work to do to get there.

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As for YSS's questions, I think he answered them well. I do feel pretty passionate about the truck one, and that Saturn should probably not lean that way, as in that case it just seems like a "me too" thing. I just don't see them pulling SUVs off too well.

An appliance you say?

The Corvette is different. It isn't quite like any other GM vehicle in terms of marketing.
 
I don't quite get the whole concept of being "paired" like you said GMC would be with Pontiac and Buick.
The idea is to bring the three brands together to effectively act as one solid entity. Think of how the Chevrolet brand looks, and then try to imagine Pontiac/Buick/GMC reflecting that slightly with more luxury options made available. Think three or four cars per brand and you get the idea...

I would just leave Toyota alone and try to keep Chevy as "The American Brand" and compete with Ford.

I believe they're trying to out-American Toyota, but they want to offer the same level of quality and "niceness" to consumers for a lesser price. Problem is, they need to show everyone that it is the case...

If GM is aiming for it, I wouldn't be surprised if the next Saturns effectively competed with Honda.

With the tilt towards "sporty" driving, I'd say Saturn approaches Honda more effectively than Toyota does. That being said, it shouldn't be too hard for them to compete almost model-for-model sometime soon.

And Buick I would say has no chance at Lexus. They should probably stick to trying to bridge the gap between Lexus and what Chevy offers. I just don't see an American badge competing there, partly on a technical basis, but mostly on price. A $80,000 Buick just doesn't suit my fancy.

I honestly disagree. Considering that Lexus owners are getting older and older, Buick stands a good chance by offering similar levels of luxury, performance, and most importantly "isolation" for a much lower price. I'd honestly take the LaCrosse Super and Enclave CXS over a similarly-priced ES350 and RX350, and I really do like the looks of the Lucerne over the GS. They won't do everything directly (thats what Cadillac is for), but Buick will take their shots.

I don't really know what the point of Cadillac is. It seems to be trying to be Buick and Pontiac at the same time. It seems that GM is aiming them at BMW, but they have quite a bit of work to do to get there.

Cadillac on the lower levels wishes to compete with BMW given that they are the standards of the market. The RWD BLS = 3-series, CTS = 5-series, Zeta STS replacement = 7-series, The BRX = X3, etc.. Everything else is supposed to compete with Merceds; the Escalade = GL, Zeta DTS replacement = S-Class, XLR = SL, etc...
 
The idea is to bring the three brands together to effectively act as one solid entity. Think of how the Chevrolet brand looks, and then try to imagine Pontiac/Buick/GMC reflecting that slightly with more luxury options made available. Think three or four cars per brand and you get the idea...[/quote]

So Pontiac/Buick/GMC will offer one line of vehicles and HUMMER/Cadillac/whatever will offer the same line and both lines will be equivalent to Chevy's current lineup? Basically three giant brands in one instead of a giant and a few "lessers"?

I believe they're trying to out-American Toyota, but they want to offer the same level of quality and "niceness" to consumers for a lesser price. Problem is, they need to show everyone that it is the case...

That makes sense. GM obviously is going the direction of niceness, but the levels of Toyota seem to be a generation or two out. And I never had thought of Toyota as becoming an American brand. Wow. Based on that, I would say that GM is right about shooting Chevy at Toyota.

With the tilt towards "sporty" driving, I'd say Saturn approaches Honda more effectively than Toyota does. That being said, it shouldn't be too hard for them to compete almost model-for-model sometime soon.

At least it's the brand image that are similar IMO. Model to model comparison just doesn't make Saturn feel very Honda-y.

I honestly disagree. Considering that Lexus owners are getting older and older, Buick stands a good chance by offering similar levels of luxury, performance, and most importantly "isolation" for a much lower price. I'd honestly take the LaCrosse Super and Enclave CXS over a similarly-priced ES350 and RX350, and I really do like the looks of the Lucerne over the GS. They won't do everything directly (thats what Cadillac is for), but Buick will take their shots.

Maybe that is the difference. Lexus is going after the successful businessman while Buick is targeting the older folks. That would make the brands have very different feels. Sure, Buick might offer similar luxury, but it won't be all the way there. And that small difference will be huge comparing the two models.

I guess the age and budget difference of the two markets will lead GM to not do a full on Lexus like Lexus is doing with BMW.

Cadillac on the lower levels wishes to compete with BMW given that they are the standards of the market. The RWD BLS = 3-series, CTS = 5-series, Zeta STS replacement = 7-series, The BRX = X3, etc.. Everything else is supposed to compete with Merceds; the Escalade = GL, Zeta DTS replacement = S-Class, XLR = SL, etc...

If you look at who they are trying to be, then Cadillac makes sense. The problems are that what Cadillac is doesn't really separate it that much from Pontiac and Buick and that it's target competitor is very similar to the competition of Pontiac and Buick. Model to model though, the brand makes sense, but I feel that they still have quite a ways to go. Maybe a budget nice car?
 
GMC is redundant IMO.

They sell commercial grade trucks, like medium duties. The Topkick is supposed to be an amazing work truck, although save from the few I see on the road I don't know much about them. I don't see a point for the Yukon, Arcadia, Canyon, and Envoy line but the Sierra is grouped in with the commercial work trucks as is the Sienna G-Van. There is a point to the GMC brand.

Put simply: Nothing good, unless GM does something fast.

Where have you been, are you completely blind to what Saturn is turning out as of late? The Aura was North American car of the year, so obliviously they are doing something good.
 
Where have you been, are you completely blind to what Saturn is turning out as of late? The Aura was North American car of the year, so obliviously they are doing something good.


Ouch! I completely forgot about that! Sorry!

Reconsidering this, I guess GM may actually try to manipulate and reuse Saturn's cars as badge-engineered products, if they could continue this performance.

And again, I remember only Saturn from my 1996 magazines, so I apologize for my shortsightedness.

And don't you mean, 'obviously'?
 
Ouch! I completely forgot about that! Sorry!

Reconsidering this, I guess GM may actually try to manipulate and reuse Saturn's cars as badge-engineered products, if they could continue this performance.

And again, I remember only Saturn from my 1996 magazines, so I apologize for my shortsightedness.

And don't you mean, 'obviously'?

Saturn of even 5 years ago was crap, they have really turned themselves around in the past 2 or 3 years to become a force to be reckoned with. With the new models they have planned I can't see them going anywhere but up, although I would suggest they dump the Outlook for something a bit more appealing.

And yes I meant obviously, but I have an auto-correct thing on my web browser that sometimes changes things incorrectly when I make a typo, think MS Word, but crappier.
 
Reconsidering this, I guess GM may actually try to manipulate and reuse Saturn's cars as badge-engineered products, if they could continue this performance.

I don't see them as reusing Saturns elsewhere, so much as Saturns just being rebadged Opels and Vauxhaulls. I would expect Saturn to get anything these two brands put out, within reason. VW does not offer some of their cars here because they are too small. Saturn probably won't see the compete Opel lineup until the US market shapes up and starts wanting even smaller cars.
 
Saturn of even 5 years ago was crap, they have really turned themselves around in the past 2 or 3 years to become a force to be reckoned with.
Saturn of 5 years ago was good. Saturn of 4 years ago through last year was crap. Saturn is now good once again.
 
No it wasn't. It was pretty fast. And pretty powerful. And pretty awesome looking. But it was firmly in the back of the compact SUV group (excepting, perhaps, the Jeep Liberty and Ford Escape). And that isn't even arguing its Equinox and Torrent cousins.
 
You may think they were poor and that's your opinion but that doesn't make them poor vehicles.
So what was the Vue better than overall that wasn't domestic or a Suzuki? What was the Saturn L-series better than in the midsize segment? What was anywhere near as bad as the Ion that wasn't the Cavalier? What kept the Saturn Relay from being just as 100% terrible as everything else that was based on that minivan platform?
Give me an example for each and I'll agree that the Saturns aren't as terrible as everyone has always made them out to be since inception. Explain to me how Saturn could have gotten the stigma that they are still fighting as a lackluster brand if all of there products were triple-A goods.
 
I didn't claim the Saturns of the the last 4 years were crap...you prove it to me that Saturns from the 2003 model year to the 2007 model year were crap.

I showed you through reviews that people thought their VUE's were average and obviously people bought them over the Honda CR-V for one reason or another, I think one of the review cited room in the vehicle.
 
Here is a Saturn VUE coming dead last in a comparison test between it and the Escape/CR-V. Here is one where it just edges out the Escape, mostly because of its new Honda engine. Here is one where they blasted the Ion for pretty much existing. Here is another one. How about one where the L-Series comes in dead last? You know, behind the generally terrible old Kia Optima. And it should go without saying that the Relay was terrible, considering the other 3 identical pieces of crap that GM tried to sell at the same time were.
Seriously, you act like its surprising that Saturn's were total crap. It really is pretty much common knowledge that they were. In fact, I'm helping you, because I didn't think that the SC was all that bad, when many thought that was crap as well.
 
The L-Series and the Ion are two things that Saturn engineers would prefer to forget, so with the exception of the VUE, there wasn't much going on for the brand. Simply put, the transition between the S and the Ion was a serious drop of the ball, and really the previous L to the updated version as well.

The good news is that they've fixed it, and without any other brand reciving the Opel/Vauxhall models, it really doesn't make much of a difference if they're "badge engineered" as long as they are drastically different (and better!) than the siblings.

Until Ford ships over the new Mondeo and the MKII Focus, the Saturn Aura and the Saturn Astra will take the top spots in their respective American classes without much of a problem. Well, I'll have to see the new Malibu to completely decide on the Aura, but yeah, I'll stick with that.
 
I agree with the general opinion: Its a nice car thats marred by cheap plastics and poor attention to details, its almost like Lutz came in halfway during developement and couldn't stop the beancounters fun. Its a good car looking for a great interior.
 
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