Where are these absurd wattage numbers coming from?

  • Thread starter Eks
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Eks

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Brucifxr
Take a look at this:
p0SCgE1.png


"700 watt music system." Pretty much all of Sony's shelf stereos (and other companies' too, I'm sure) have this gigantic wattage rating. I've singled out this particular model just because it's the one I actually own.

Before I tried educating myself on the subject, I assumed that the 700 was taken from the combined output of both speakers and the subwoofer (placing each speaker at 235W and the sub at 230W).
Then, I noticed that the little receiver itself consumes just 90W of power. Quite a fall from 700. Not to mention that some vastly-superior A/V receivers are doing 135W per channel. It just doesn't make sense.

I understand that, when a consumer sees a big number like "700," they are immediately attracted. I was one of those consumers.

It gets worse, though. Sony Shake models, like this one, have a rating of three thousand watts! Not only that, but, to make things more confusing, this Sony model (the predecessor to the model I own) has a lower rating of 540 watts; however, I've actually owned that one, too, and not only does its receiver consume around 250W of power, but it also has superior sound quality, is pretty much equal in loudness, and has a subwoofer that can produce sound at 20Hz and below, whereas my current one seems to cut off at around 40Hz.

I know frequency response doesn't have much to do with it, and maybe I can chalk up the sound quality and power consumption to the class of amplifier used (the 700W model uses Class D, and I'll guess the 540W model uses a Class A/B because of how large its heatsink was), but I'm still confused as to why Sony decided to market that model with a lower (though equally absurd) wattage rating when it is equal, if not superior, to the 700W model that replaced it.

I guess that brings me back to the original question - where on earth do these ridiculous numbers come from? Is there any basis in truth?
 
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Those wattage numbers are the peak power the system can deliver, not the average power. Listening to a piece there's an average level and peaks from drums or cymbals or some such. Even though the nominal output may be only 25 watts, it still has to be capable of delivering those peaks without clipping (ie distortion).

Plus you can be sure there's a healthy amount of marketing exaggeration in the numbers. It's been my experience that 100 watts per channel is adequate for pretty much anything as long as it's true watts, not "marketing" watts.
 
Eks
where on earth do these ridiculous numbers come from? Is there any basis in truth?
They come from tests that are designed to deliver big numbers for the marketing department.
It usually involves a 1000 Hz sine wave at low impedance through a single channel.
 
Amp specs are a farce!

From the manual:
AUDIO POWER SPECIFICATIONS
POWER OUTPUT AND TOTAL HARMONIC DISTORTION:
(The United States model only)
With 3 ohms loads, both channels driven, from 120 - 10,000 Hz; rated 30 watts per channel minimum RMS power, with no more than 0.7% total harmonic distortion from 250 milliwatts to rated output.​
Amplifier section
MHC-ECL99BT

U.S. model:
Front speaker:
Output power (reference):
235 W + 235 W (per channel at 3 ohms, 1 kHz)
Subwoofer:
Output power (reference):
230 W (at 3 ohms, 100 Hz)​
Other models:
Front speaker:
Power output (rated):
60 W + 60 W (at 3 ohms, 1 kHz, 1% THD)
Output power (reference):
235 W + 235 W (per channel at 3 ohms, 1 kHz)
Subwoofer:
Output power (reference):
230 W (at 3 ohms, 100 Hz)​
MHC-ECL77BT
U.S. model:
Output power (reference):
235 W + 235 W (per channel at 3 ohms, 1 kHz)​
Brazilian model:
Output power (reference):
320 W (160 W per channel, at 3 ohms, 1 kHz, 10% THD)​
Other models:
Power output (rated):
60 W + 60 W (at 3 ohms, 1 kHz, 1% THD)
Output power (reference):
235 W + 235 W (per channel at 3 ohms, 1 kHz)​

All different specs for the same thing, just because different countries have different laws on what they can say!

So a truer spec for the fronts is 30W + 30W, which allows less than 30W for the sub, to still fit within the 90W power supply budget. I guess US laws are tighter on THD specification than on output power.

Note that power consumption specs are the same for all, with no country specific rubbish:
Power consumption:
MHC-ECL99BT: 90 W
MHC-ECL77BT: 75 W​

If the sub is the only difference between the 77 and the 99, then that may only be 15W for the sub.

And, of course on average you can't get more out than you put in. Only for very brief moments when capacitors in the power supply are supplying the extra current.
 
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If the sub is the only difference between the 77 and the 99, then that may only be 15W for the sub.
Good find(s). My unit's included manual mentions none of this. The sub is not significantly quieter than the satellite speakers at full volume, though. Would I be correct in saying that the sub is able to be nearly as loud (if not equally) with less wattage because it does not have to produce those middle/higher frequencies? Or does 15W really not make that much of a difference?

Those wattage numbers are the peak power the system can deliver, not the average power.

Yeah, peak power was something I thought of as well. Still, a number like "100W," while still false, would've at least been believable. I guess that wouldn't be as attractive, though. I'm not disappointed with the system, but, taking a look at the Amazon reviews, many people are going in to this with 700W expectations, and coming out disappointed.

They come from tests that are designed to deliver big numbers for the marketing department.
It usually involves a 1000 Hz sine wave at low impedance through a single channel.
So tests like this on a unit that seems to do ~30WPC can return numbers large enough that rounding up to 700 seems believable?
 
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Eks
So tests like this on a unit that seems to do ~30WPC can return numbers large enough that rounding to 700 seems believable?
Yes, they can deliver those sort of numbers, that's why they're advertised. If they weren't realistic numbers they'd get sued for false advertising. Your job as a buyer is knowing what those numbers mean and which numbers to look for.
 
Eks
Good find(s). My unit's included manual mentions none of this. The sub is not significantly quieter than the satellite speakers at full volume, though. Would I be correct in saying that the sub is able to be nearly as loud (if not equally) with less wattage because it does not have to produce those middle/higher frequencies? Or does 15W really not make that much of a difference?

Sorry, I forgot to link to the manual I found, which was on the Sony UK site.

Typically you want more power on a sub since it's harder to produce bass dB and because there's only one sub vs two or more main speakers. However, if there's an overlap with the main speakers it doesn't take a lot of power to fill out the sound of the bass. That 15W is just a guess based on the consumption specs, and other factors could well be involved - maybe the 77 puts out a little more power to the front channels than the 99, who knows. Another way to guess would be to take their figures and divide by 10, giving 23.5W + 23.5W + 23W = 70W, which seems more balanced.

Yes, they can deliver those sort of numbers, that's why they're advertised. If they weren't realistic numbers they'd get sued for false advertising. Your job as a buyer is knowing what those numbers mean and which numbers to look for.

I dunno about 'realistic', more like 'legally defensible', at a stretch. When I first got into audio stuff the claims were nowhere near as outlandish, maybe they'd state 2x the correct power. These days, it seems to be 10x! Good article here.
 
I dunno about 'realistic', more like 'legally defensible', at a stretch.
And in order to be legally defensible they have to be realistic. The fact that these numbers are in no way representative of the actual performance in a real world application is another matter.
 
And in order to be legally defensible they have to be realistic. The fact that these numbers are in no way representative of the actual performance in a real world application is another matter.

In the sense that AFAIK they are calculated theoretical values, rather than measured, I wouldn't call them realistic. I'm an engineer not a lawyer, but I suspect they wouldn't risk using the word realistic either, unless the local law demanded it - and in that case the claimed power would probably be lower :)
 
In the sense that AFAIK they are calculated theoretical values, rather than measured, I wouldn't call them realistic. I'm an engineer not a lawyer, but I suspect they wouldn't risk using the word realistic either, unless the local law demanded it - and in that case the claimed power would probably be lower
Well, now we're discussing semantics and speculating so I think we had better stop.

We mostly agree though and I share your concern that the problem of deceptively inflated power ratings seems to have gotten worse with time. As an engineer I'm sure you agree that the lack of a proper industry standard with regards to power ratings is a problem.
If such standards were in place this wouldn't be an issue.
 
Well, now we're discussing semantics and speculating so I think we had better stop.

We mostly agree though and I share your concern that the problem of deceptively inflated power ratings seems to have gotten worse with time. As an engineer I'm sure you agree that the lack of a proper industry standard with regards to power ratings is a problem.
If such standards were in place this wouldn't be an issue.

Of course we mostly agree, the whole thing is ridiculous from any common sense perspective! But while I understand when you say "they can deliver those sort of numbers ... realistic ..." that there are many unspoken conditions, and a particular use of the word realistic, others might not. They state a 3 ohm load - but that doesn't have to be a speaker (and in this case, almost certainly not the supplied speaker). The internal sources will have nowhere near the output voltage required to max out the amp, so use an external source. Measure (maybe) a single pulse, or single square wave cycle (1ms at stated 1kHz). That might deliver the number - might also cause the amp to fail, but that's allowed!

Maybe it is semantics, but 'realistic' can only apply the above test in terms of being technically accurate. In practise we'd be more likely to use it in the sense of "The rated power is 235W, but 30W would be a more realistic value". I just wanted to remove any possible misunderstanding of it.

They've been getting away with this for so long, I don't think they bother doing such a test any more, if they ever did. So the calc could simply derive power from PSU voltage and output resistance, assuming the current gets supplied. Whatever gets them the biggest power figure without technically breaking the law. Pure speculation, granted.

We've needed a decent standard for decades, nothing much has happened :(
 

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