Why always start last and only have 5 rounds

[Splitten65]

Hi

I haven't played GT7 (I'm new into GT7) for but getting bored of this issue

A little bit tried off always starting last and only have 5 rounds to get in top3
It's no realistic, unless you take the PP to its limit and that's really not that fun - Who can take 15 sec on a round to the car up in front of you ???

Why ?

 

[Nebuc72]

That's what PD think good game design is. Been this way since 2010. Hope you enjoy!

 

[TumeK5]

Because Sophy isn't fully implemented yet.

 

[sswishbone]

It's a format since pretty much GT4 and they've not really gone away from it much for some reason. Back to front victories have been done by John Watson, Jenson Button and Sergio Perez to name a few... however, they are rare, so PD should move on from chase the rabbit racing

 

[smoothbore12]

Hi

I haven't played GT7 (I'm new into GT7) for but getting bored of this issue

A little bit tried off always starting last and only have 5 rounds to get in top3
It's no realistic, unless you take the PP to its limit and that's really not that fun - Who can take 15 sec on a round to the car up in front of you ???

Why ?

Why ?
Because everyone has the " right " to win somehow 🤣
Look the Big picture, if it was realistic it will be playable only from professionals , for the majority or the other players would be unplayable and nobody want to participate in a game that winning is out of question.

Fun have many parameters that comes from and vary from one to another .

 

[Everpure]

It’s a total drag and I also dislike it very much. But in the absence of the rompers endurance races, qualifying and the like, the only alternative would be random placing in the starting grid every time you enter a race, wouldn’t it?
What’s more annoying is the fact that almost all races are rolling start. How many races in real life are like that?

 

[BangsMcCoy]

You’re looking at it all wrong. The ‘fun’ part is figuring out how to get cars like a Gr.1 car down far enough in PP rating where you can enter them in events against Gr.3 cars and then seeing how many times you can lap them. Or say using an engine swapped car that has the same PP as the AI, but 4x the power and seeing how quickly you can catch the rabbit. Or better yet, use these methods to practice dive bombing and punting your opponents for when you move over to multiplayer lobbies, that way you can fit right in there.

In all seriousness though, it’s probably because starting out in front is even more boring than chase the rabbit and putting you somewhere in the middle of a grid start makes it very difficult to get the CRB on your average race of 2-5 laps if you’re using a car that is suggested or “fair” for the race and still want a shot at winning.

I’m not advocating for the current, or saying it’s ‘good’ but it certainly could be worse. If you’re looking for more of a challenge then I’d stick to the 4 and 5 chili pepper races, Human Comedy missions, the BoP races, or setting up custom races.

 

[Sir Crashalot]

That's a question asked many times but can't be answered. Nobody here knows why it is as it is. We can just guess and the most common guess is that PD just can't create a good enough AI . (I myself don't think that's the reason)

 

[Splitten65]

You’re looking at it all wrong. The ‘fun’ part is figuring out how to get cars like a Gr.1 car down far enough in PP rating where you can enter them in events against Gr.3 cars and then seeing how many times you can lap them. Or say using an engine swapped car that has the same PP as the AI, but 4x the power and seeing how quickly you can catch the rabbit. Or better yet, use these methods to practice dive bombing and punting your opponents for when you move over to multiplayer lobbies, that way you can fit right in there.

In all seriousness though, it’s probably because starting out in front is even more boring than chase the rabbit and putting you somewhere in the middle of a grid start makes it very difficult to get the CRB on your average race of 2-5 laps if you’re using a car that is suggested or “fair” for the race and still want a shot at winning.

I’m not advocating for the current, or saying it’s ‘good’ but it certainly could be worse. If you’re looking for more of a challenge then I’d stick to the 4 and 5 chili pepper races, Human Comedy missions, the BoP races, or setting up custom races.

Have tried Custom Races, but it's still not good, even though I chose "same class"

But its fun to build a Yaris, who beats ALL gr.3 cars - But not in the length of the games

 

[Splitten65]

If you choose races where it's "only" Gr3 or Gr4 it's much better as you can't tune a Gr3/Gr4 car that much

Could yo make some algorithms who looks into your driver licens level and past races and as ACC make a qualification races and be MORE strict with which car you can choose to a race
You can choose level of your skills, couldn't that be calculated into the races - Maybe it is

It's OK if you what to lap a Gr3 car with a VGT car, but not in the lenght

 

[MatskiMonk]

What’s more annoying is the fact that almost all races are rolling start. How many races in real life are like that?

Errr... a lot. WEC, IMSA, Le mans, IndyCar, NASCAR, DTM, pretty much all GT3 and GT4 series, SuperGT... F1 doesn't, in fact most of the series that use a standing start I can think of are Formula series (like the Super Formula races should probably be standing start by default), and touring car races, but even then, they've had a mix of starts to neutralise the benefits of RWD.

 

[Splitten65]

Why ?
Because everyone has the " right " to win somehow 🤣
Look the Big picture, if it was realistic it will be playable only from professionals , for the majority or the other players would be unplayable and nobody want to participate in a game that winning is out of question.

Fun have many parameters that comes from and vary from one to another .

How do you divide drivers in real life ?
Couldn't that be more usefull

Yeah that's right 3 or 4 or chili races are more fun (harder)

Have just spend a week (on / off) to get around Suzuka in rain / tyre wear / petrol use in a Ferrari VGT
It was pretty fun but again, I have to have a 948 PP car to keep up as I started LAST
But it was fun to calculate wear / petrol / rain / soft slick / intermediate tyre / rain tyre

Maybe I don't have all the settings right in game settings
Any recommendations ?

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

Because the AI is far too slow to compete on equal terms so PD places them way out in front and often times gives their cars significantly more performance than what you are limited to in an effort to make the game challenging. I don't think anyone likes this. I doubt PD even like this, but until the AI is drastically improved (Sophy, hopefully) that will be the format.

 

[Everpure]

Errr... a lot. WEC, IMSA, Le mans, IndyCar, NASCAR, DTM, pretty much all GT3 and GT4 series, SuperGT... F1 doesn't, in fact most of the series that use a standing start I can think of are Formula series (like the Super Formula races should probably be standing start by default), and touring car races, but even then, they've had a mix of starts to neutralise the benefits of RWD.

Ok, but there would still be qualifiers to determine the starting order - which is actually the far bigger issue anyway.

 

[Nebuc72]

Because the AI is far too slow to compete on equal terms so PD places them way out in front and often times gives their cars significantly more performance than what you are limited to in an effort to make the game challenging. I don't think anyone likes this. I doubt PD even like this, but until the AI is drastically improved (Sophy, hopefully) that will be the format.

I'm fairly sure PD like this.

It's something I'm surprised more people didn't pick up on as I think it's quite frankly crazy - but this is behaviour mimicked in Sophy (namely the fact they slow down and speed up to give you an artificial feeling race) and that's something they have done by design, @Jordan asked Sony AI about the behaviour here: https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/thre...y-ai-x-polyphony-digital.404129/post-14156845

and was met with a runaround where they just said it was part of the games design (and therefore, likely something that PD wanted).
I don't think Sophy will change a thing in the future. If PD are wanting to make the races like this, then Sophy will just be a slightly smarter rubberbanding rabbit. And that sucks!

It's the game design that needs to change more than the AI. The few times the AI in this game gets to shine (namely the Clubman Cup Plus events) they are pretty fun and challenging.

 

[MatskiMonk]

Ok, but there would still be qualifiers to determine the starting order - which is actually the far bigger issue anyway.

Yeah, but with GT AI cars lack of 'I', and poor low speed tyre physics, if you started first, be it by chance or skill from a qually mode - you're going to win by half a lap and not see another car anyway, which isn't really any better.

 

[Everpure]

Yeah, but with GT AI cars lack of 'I', and poor low speed tyre physics, if you started first, be it by chance or skill from a qually mode - you're going to win by half a lap and not see another car anyway, which isn't really any better.

Yeah, I get that - and I agree. And it really highlights one of the main issues with the game. Because in lots of the races, I start last, get past everyone and before the race ends, I already lap the last “AI” cars often… also quite boring… and not very “realistic” either.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

If they aren't good, it would be at least fun if they were varied. Anyone remember the old N64 game Perfect Dark? The combat simulator mode enabled you to pick from a pretty wide range of bot personalities to fight against. A few notable ones:

Judge Sim: Will always hunt down the opponent winning
Kaze Sim: (Short for kamikaze) Will always go in for the kill even if their chances of success are low
Turtle Sim: Has extreme shielding
Speed Sim: Unusually fast
Peace Sim: Will go around disarming opponents
Meat Sim: Just really low skills (GT7 AI, basically)
Rocket Sim: Will always prefer explosive weapons
Fist Sim: Will always use fists only

It wouldn't work for the single player, probably, but for custom races having some personality in the AI could be really fun. Some ideas:

Late Brake Sim: Will always try to dive bomb other drivers (Gan San? )
Shall Not Pass Sim: Will always try to move to block others from overtaking
Drift Sim: Will often oversteering through the corners (Dori Dori)
Loophole Sim: Will always enter races with overpowered cars
Sato Sim: Will drive consistently well over the limit of the car and frequently crash and/or wear out tires very fast
Slipstream Sim: Will relentlessly follow slipstreams in races
Gutter Sim: Will use runoff areas gratuitously for advantage
Pinball Sim: Will use track walls gratuitously for advantage

The real problem, still, is that none of the above would be fast enough to make their personality count for anything.

 

[smoothbore12]

How do you divide drivers in real life ?
Couldn't that be more usefull

Yeah that's right 3 or 4 or chili races are more fun (harder)

Have just spend a week (on / off) to get around Suzuka in rain / tyre wear / petrol use in a Ferrari VGT
It was pretty fun but again, I have to have a 948 PP car to keep up as I started LAST
But it was fun to calculate wear / petrol / rain / soft slick / intermediate tyre / rain tyre

Maybe I don't have all the settings right in game settings
Any recommendations ?

Harder doesn't mean more fun , means just harder .
What we name as Fun is the feeling we get by achieving a task.
You can always put your self in a disadvantage to make things harder and greater the feeling.
Also skills are vary for person to person as and the equipment they use .

The harder part is to realise where you stand in case of skill performance.
When you know where you are , your targets be more realistic.
For example, being somewhere between 15.000- 20000 in a world rank TT and aiming to hit the top 100 isn't realistic, it's an utopia. .


The game has 3 levels, easy , regular and hard so it's up to you what to use .
As your skills grow the better will be and as i said, nobody wants to play any game if win is out of reach .

 

[Badstdad]

Hi

I haven't played GT7 (I'm new into GT7) for but getting bored of this issue

A little bit tried off always starting last and only have 5 rounds to get in top3
It's no realistic, unless you take the PP to its limit and that's really not that fun - Who can take 15 sec on a round to the car up in front of you ???

Why ?

Realistic depends on your reality I guess, lol. I also hated it at 1st, now I like the challenge. It reminds me back in the olden days, we'd race our dirt track cars in an inverted lineup, based on a coin flip AFTER qualifying to eliminate sandbagging. 20 laps on a dirt 1/4 mile with 20 other screaming nutbags, let the mayhem begin!

 

[Meythia]

Yeah, I get that - and I agree. And it really highlights one of the main issues with the game. Because in lots of the races, I start last, get past everyone and before the race ends, I already lap the last “AI” cars often… also quite boring… and not very “realistic” either.

As you already noticed, the AI is bad and for a game that GT7 is, PD decided to go by this to make it "fun" for the biggest part of players (I guess).
If you are too fast, you can always downtune your car to find a point at which you can have your challenge, nothing besides your own way of playing is preventing you from doing this.

 

[Badstdad]

As you already noticed, the AI is bad and for a game that GT7 is, PD decided to go by this to make it "fun" for the biggest part of players (I guess).
If you are too fast, you can always downtune your car to find a point at which you can have your challenge, nothing besides your own way of playing is preventing you from doing this.

Yup yup. Hard tires and full lean ft, then start squeezing the restrictor OR, as I ought to spend more time on, winning some of those races we all have in g7 that we've been avoiding, lol!

 

[BangsMcCoy]

PD has a wide range of skill levels for all players to have “equal terms” applied for everyone. It’s virtually impossible to equally meet everyone’s skill level at the same time. What may be good for some would certainly be bad for others. It’s really how they choose to utilize what they already have that makes the AI so bad. PD knows how to make fast AI without using Sophy. Though definitely not perfect, they do it in select races and missions, and in almost all races there’s always that 1 or 2 that are much faster than the rest, even though you still typically catch them too before the race ends unless you make some significant mistakes.

Maybe if they made all of the field to that same standard the races would be more challenging or more fun, yet still consistently winnable instead of the leisure cruise to the checkered flag 90% of the races currently are. Then again, maybe PD wants that for the majority of their races…somewhat relaxing run around the track moreso than a frustrating ‘I only podium 20-30% of the time and win even less’ controller throwing, rage quitting sessions for your average player? Maybe a bit of an exaggeration, but you get the point. People already complain about making enough Cr. now imagine if it was exponentially harder. That wouldn’t go well.

Sophy isn’t the only answer or way PD can provide a challenge with AI, they just choose not to except for those 1 or 2 cars in the field and for certain races and I have a feeling this is to hopefully make it more enjoyable for a wider range of players rather than make it too difficult for them.

It’d be nice to see us be able to choose chili pepper ratings for difficulty for any race in addition to the ‘Easy’, ‘Normal’ and ‘Hard’ difficulty settings. Between the 4 and 5 chili pepper races and the Human Comedy missions the challenge yet win-ability of those races is pretty well balanced for most I think.

 

[jonoholland29]

If they aren't good, it would be at least fun if they were varied. Anyone remember the old N64 game Perfect Dark? The combat simulator mode enabled you to pick from a pretty wide range of bot personalities to fight against. A few notable ones:

Judge Sim: Will always hunt down the opponent winning
Kaze Sim: (Short for kamikaze) Will always go in for the kill even if their chances of success are low
Turtle Sim: Has extreme shielding
Speed Sim: Unusually fast
Peace Sim: Will go around disarming opponents
Meat Sim: Just really low skills (GT7 AI, basically)
Rocket Sim: Will always prefer explosive weapons
Fist Sim: Will always use fists only

It wouldn't work for the single player, probably, but for custom races having some personality in the AI could be really fun. Some ideas:

Late Brake Sim: Will always try to dive bomb other drivers (Gan San? )
Shall Not Pass Sim: Will always try to move to block others from overtaking
Drift Sim: Will often oversteering through the corners (Dori Dori)
Loophole Sim: Will always enter races with overpowered cars
Sato Sim: Will drive consistently well over the limit of the car and frequently crash and/or wear out tires very fast
Slipstream Sim: Will relentlessly follow slipstreams in races
Gutter Sim: Will use runoff areas gratuitously for advantage
Pinball Sim: Will use track walls gratuitously for advantage

The real problem, still, is that none of the above would be fast enough to make their personality count for anything.

This would be really good - and I mentioned something similar in the Sophy thread how it would be good if it could mimic the "behaviour" (and importantly NOT skill) of real-life drivers. So when I'm making a move on Polis in his Alfa he defends like he does in real life.

Scaleable skill from Sophy is key though plus the ability to react/cope with stress and fatigue. I'm really fascinated to see how it progresses.

More on topic, It would be good if there was a different difficulty settings where you can have standing starts/qualifying instead. Its the quali aspect I miss more than the standing starts.