Why is it so hard for PD to create a competitive AI system for GT?

[drivingmeinsane]

I've been reading quite a few posts on these here forums the past hour or so and i've noticed that those who are against PD adding more A-spec events or some kind of A-spec event creator tool to GT5 is because of the AI not being competitive enough for them, and to some degree-i agree. so the question is, why is the AI in GT so lacking?

I still have my SNES and sometimes when i get that nostalgic feeling i get it out of the cupboard and play Mario Kart. the AI in Mario Kart is very competitive. whenever you over take an opponent that opponent speeds up to try and retake his position until you over take the next opponent until you get to the front. once in front 2nd place does their best to retake the lead and if successful 3rd place does their best to overtake you and so on and so forth. so if Mario Kart on the SNES (which by today's consoles is a dinosaur) can have such a competitive AI system, why does GT's AI lack so much? is it simply down to PD's oversight, lack of development if you will, or is there more to it than that?


I'm not a developer and have no idea about development, so please go easy on me if this topic seems stupid to you.

 

[Akwaaba]

I found this recently, and found it interesting



I know which I prefer!

 

[SilverArrow]

I found this recently, and found it interesting

I know which I prefer!

If the AI aggresion was turned up to 10 for arcade mode, does the same thing happen?

 

[drivingmeinsane]

I know which I prefer!

Same here, but that doesn't really address the lack of competitiveness as far as racing goes. it simply shows which games AI is best at avoiding a hazard

 

[QB1o]

In MarioKart, when you passed an opponent they use 'boost' to chase you down.
Which is cheating.

I would argue that the AI in the GT series hasn't changed appreciably since the PS1 days which is why online racing against people rocks.

 

[drivingmeinsane]

In MarioKart, when you passed an opponent they use 'boost' to chase you down.
Which is cheating.

True, but the AI in GT doesn't push hard enough to regain the lead (or position) when you overtake them. i would think PD would have devoted more time to this issue, would you agree?

I would argue that the AI in the GT series hasn't changed appreciably since the PS1 days which is why online racing against people rocks.

Online "rocks" for you, i'm pleased for you, no sarcasm, i really am...but there's a million and 1 reasons stated all over these boards why online does not "rock" for everyone but that's not what this discussion is about

 

[DrTrouserPlank]

I assume that they don't have the AI coded in a way where they can "ask" it to set a time with x variance and have it actually do it (if it is physically possible). Their AI must need to be coded on a difficulty-by-difficulty basis and that would be quite time consuming.

It's annoying because the early braking, apex parking, and being so late on the power at the exit makes them nothing more than mobile obstacles. Even when you massively undertune your car, you can get some excitement out of the race, but it doesn't change the fact that you are lapping a lot faster than them, and they are still parking on the apexes to light up a cigarette as you breeze past.

 

[Samus]

I found this recently, and found it interesting



I know which I prefer!

Completely irrelevant when it comes to actually racing the AI.

 

[the Interceptor]

True, but the AI in GT doesn't push hard enough to regain the lead (or position) when you overtake them. i would think PD would have devoted more time to this issue, would you agree?

There are a few moments where you can get the impression that GT5's AI puts up a fight. When you just overtook an opponent, he still is close behind you and there's a corner coming up, he often breaks late and tries to overtake you back inside or outside. Also, the obstacle avoidance system has been improved, as shown in the above video. Otherwise however, GT5's AI is pretty wooden, predictable and, on top of all, slow. You can of course weaken your own car with cheap tires, extra weight and the power limiter to level your performance with theirs, but it's a poor man's workaround at best.

Why the AI is comparably weak is unknown. If you watch them racing (which you eventually have when you B-Specced), you can almost feel how they programmed this bit by bit and added careful improvements to increase the overall AI performance. But still, it feels like a dated system which in turn makes you drive circles around computer opponents and thus takes a good portion of possible fun out of offline play.

I don't believe in hardware limitations to be honest, I think this is lack of programming quality, as hard as that is to believe after so many iterations of Gran Turismo and so many years of GT5 development.

 

[Tornado]

I found this recently, and found it interesting



I know which I prefer!

Ah. The very important "stopped in the middle of the track facing the wrong way" litmus test. Because we all know how often that comes up in a race.

I still have my SNES and sometimes when i get that nostalgic feeling i get it out of the cupboard and play Mario Kart. the AI in Mario Kart is very competitive. whenever you over take an opponent that opponent speeds up to try and retake his position until you over take the next opponent until you get to the front. once in front 2nd place does their best to retake the lead and if successful 3rd place does their best to overtake you and so on and so forth. so if Mario Kart on the SNES (which by today's consoles is a dinosaur) can have such a competitive AI system, why does GT's AI lack so much? is it simply down to PD's oversight, lack of development if you will, or is there more to it than that?

I never want rubber band AI to come back into the series.

Ever.






The GT5 AI isn't actually that bad in regards to situational awareness. It just doesn't push hard enough and has a few really dumb quirks. The A-Spec AI is also, for whatever crazy reason, worse than the B-Spec AI.

 

[drivingmeinsane]

There are a few moments where you can get the impression that GT5's AI puts up a fight. When you just overtook an opponent, he still is close behind you and there's a corner coming up, he often breaks late and tries to overtake you back inside or outside. Also, the obstacle avoidance system has been improved, as shown in the above video. Otherwise however, GT5's AI is pretty wooden, predictable and, on top of all, slow. You can of course weaken your own car with cheap tires, extra weight and the power limiter to level your performance with theirs, but it's a poor man's workaround at best.

Why the AI is comparably weak is unknown. If you watch them racing (which you eventually have when you B-Specced), you can almost feel how they programmed this bit by bit and added careful improvements to increase the overall AI performance. But still, it feels like a dated system which in turn makes you drive circles around computer opponents and thus takes a good portion of possible fun out of offline play.

I don't believe in hardware limitations to be honest, I think this is lack of programming quality, as hard as that is to believe after so many iterations of Gran Turismo and so many years of GT5 development.

Great post mate 👍

I've been B-speccing the Sarth seasonal for cash buying up every car in the game using the Chappy 2J, what i have noticed is that the AI when overtaken on the straights will brake late and overtake on the chicanes due to the 2j's lack of top speed (except when slip streaming), but when the 2J overtakes on the corners it can keep the lead even when not pushing hard while the AI is just happy to sit behind the 2J and lose ground through the corners resulting in the 2J gaining a huge lead when hitting the top of the Mulsane straight. you could argue that the 2J has a huge cornering advantage and you would be right but the AI does not do enough by pushing harder through the bends even though the cars can go that bit faster and compete more....or am i talking rubbish?


@Toronado, neither do i, i'd just like the Ai in A-spec to have that bit more of an edge to it...see what i'm saying?

 

[GT6mebe]

Completely irrelevant when it comes to actually racing the AI.

At least it sows that the AI are aware of you and race safely (albeit slowly). Its a step in the right direction but they need to be faster.

One thing that is obvious with the Ai is that when you overtake them they immediately stop. Is there any need for that?

 

[the Interceptor]

you could argue that the 2J has a huge cornering advantage and you would be right but the AI does not do enough by pushing harder through the bends even though the cars can go that bit faster and compete more....or am i talking rubbish?

No no, you're right on the money. When you watch an AI opponent approach a corner in the replay, you can clearly see how he goes through the stages of braking, coasting for a moment, getting up to the speed which was programmed to be "safe" and accelerating after coming out of the corner. There is no flow at all in that, it is a clearly visible and audible succession of commands.

It's a wild guess, but here's my theory: the programmers had to make sure that the AI doesn't spin out on every corner. So since the physics system is identical for man and machine, they had to stay below "the edge of driving" if you catch my drift. They had to make sure that the AI stays on track at all times (which it occasionally doesn't), so they took the "slow and steady" approach for their computer drivers to make absolutely sure that they don't overcome the physics system at any time. That's why they drive slowly through bends, make pauses and don't push the car to its limits. You could conclude that the physics people did a good job, and the AI people had a much harder job because of that.

 

[MeanElf]

There is of course the theory that in order to draw new players into the game the AI difficulty has been set purposefully low for most races - that, if true, is more likely a requirement from Sony, not PD.

As mentioned above, you now have the option to set AI difficulty in Arcade mode - the place where the most fun can be had, in my opinion.

As for comparisons between older consoles and current-gen games, there really are a lot more factors involved vis á vis driving physics, graphics and all the peripheral stuff going on that vie for game-engine capacity. Lastly, I suppose as this is the first full PD game that has online capacity, it might well have been assumed that most folks would be seeking their opponent thrills online.

 

[Akwaaba]

Completely irrelevant when it comes to actually racing the AI.

I thought it was vaguely related, and more so - interesting
sorry if you'd seen it before of didn't find it interesting

Ah. The very important "stopped in the middle of the track facing the wrong way" litmus test. Because we all know how often that comes up in a race.

Oh I do that all the time, no seriously - when I fall off, and try to get back on the track - I want the AI to avoid me

I did think it shows that the AI have some reasonable er ... wel AI!

I never want rubber band AI to come back into the series. Ever.

The GT5 AI isn't actually that bad in regards to situational awareness. It just doesn't push hard enough and has a few really dumb quirks. The A-Spec AI is also, for whatever crazy reason, worse than the B-Spec AI.

The AI I've read by far the most complaints is ... B-spec BOB
I would like AI to push harder, but we'd be annoyed if they kept crashing into us, or raced dirty ... wouldn't we?

At least it sows that the AI are aware of you and race safely (albeit slowly). Its a step in the right direction but they need to be faster.

One thing that is obvious with the Ai is that when you overtake them they immediately stop. Is there any need for that?

Agreed, it'll be great if they become more competitive

No no, you're right on the money. When you watch an AI opponent approach a corner in the replay, you can clearly see how he goes through the stages of braking, coasting for a moment, getting up to the speed which was programmed to be "safe" and accelerating after coming out of the corner. There is no flow at all in that, it is a clearly visible and audible succession of commands.

It's a wild guess, but here's my theory: the programmers had to make sure that the AI doesn't spin out on every corner. So since the physics system is identical for man and machine, they had to stay below "the edge of driving" if you catch my drift. They had to make sure that the AI stays on track at all times (which it occasionally doesn't), so they took the "slow and steady" approach for their computer drivers to make absolutely sure that they don't overcome the physics system at any time. That's why they drive slowly through bends, make pauses and don't push the car to its limits. You could conclude that the physics people did a good job, and the AI people had a much harder job because of that.

That seems spot on

There is of course the theory that in order to draw new players into the game the AI difficulty has been set purposefully low for most races - that, if true, is more likely a requirement from Sony, not PD.
As mentioned above, you now have the option to set AI difficulty in Arcade mode - the place where the most fun can be had, in my opinion.

As for comparisons between older consoles and current-gen games, there really are a lot more factors involved vis á vis driving physics, graphics and all the peripheral stuff going on that vie for game-engine capacity. Lastly, I suppose as this is the first full PD game that has online capacity, it might well have been assumed that most folks would be seeking their opponent thrills online.

also seems very realistic ... however, I didn't notice any progression in AI difficulty from beginners hall to Expect, am I alone in not noticing much difference?

 

[Samus]

At least it sows that the AI are aware of you and race safely (albeit slowly). Its a step in the right direction but they need to be faster.

One thing that is obvious with the Ai is that when you overtake them they immediately stop. Is there any need for that?

No, it shows you how the AI react to stationary cars. Nothing more, nothing less.

 

[MeanElf]

...also seems very realistic ... however, I didn't notice any progression in AI difficulty from beginners hall to Expect, am I alone in not noticing much difference?

True, just a few outside races showed any real difference but generally all AI were pretty much the same from start to finish.

I had noticed though if you reload a race then different sets of opponents would be racing against you and you get to know some of the names. If one gives you a hard time in one race, he'll certainly do the same when you race him again.