Why race series fail-version 2

[AngelCreator]

Ok this is being done in reponse with the last "Why race series fail" thread.
I have made this poll with what people have said so maybe you will be able to pick
the real reson why race series fail. Also I have made it so you can pick more than
one because it is hard to pick just one in a poll like this.

 

[GM]

Racers get lazy, I've seen it happen quite alot, and I'm worried about it for my DTM series.

 

[m.piedgros]

I have to agree, it happend to my GT3 series.

m.piedgros

 

[Drew22]

I think it's more that they don't like losing week after week. Even in the very well run JGTC series alot of drivers that pledged to participate dropped out after several weeks without a win. The sad part about that is the JGTC is handicapped weekly so eventually most everone will win if they stick it out. As for myself, I'm quite a bit older then most drivers here and have learned to lose as a natural process of age,I enjoy the challenge and friendships made in race series.

 

[Danisfast]

Lazy racers and lazy me!! Nearly killed my series! I've been VERY lucky though and have run into the right people (so I suppose luck is a factor as well...) and now my 2.3 Sports Car Championship is running like clock-work with a good number of regular participants and a closely fought, exciting championship that every organiser wants when he or she first dreams up an idea for a tournament.
However, I have to agree on the lazy racers thing, I've had a few people join up and I've never heard from them again. I was thinking about it earlier on today and thought about things like references, looking at people's past tourneys when they apply for mine so I can check if they're reliable etc. Because there is no bigger injustice for a hard working race organiser than lazy racers who make it look bad by not showing up.
Thanks,
Danisfast
PS George, if only one tournament was allowed to succeed for the rest of the year, I'd probably put my money on yours mate. It really is taking off like an aeroplane. I'd be desperatly dissapointed if your DTM crashed.

 

[Drew22]

Hey Danifast, you hit the nail on the head with your point of injustice by dissapearing drivers to the organizer. I give anyone that's willing and able to put together a series alot of respect, it can be a thankless job with rampant apathy and disregard to commitments.
EV4L made it extremely clear at the beginning of his JGTC series that if you sign-up you agree to go the distance. Everyone that signed up agreed to the terms and then many promptly reneged on their commitment....that's gotta drive an organizer nuts.

 

[Danisfast]

Yeah, EV4L had an interesting thing on his tourney, a part-time system whereby you didn't have to commit and so you weren't expected to either. Maybe that might be the way forward??
Though the only draw back is if you get everyone signing up for the part time and only showing up for one or two races. I've also noticed that he's got a penalty system similar to the one I'm using whereby if the racer doesn't bother to qualify, he'll pay the price in the race. It's REALLY worked for me, my non-qually submissions are down to a very decent number now, and its reflecting in the results. It's not perfect. but I've got enough reliable racers to be able to punish any laziness, and for that I am very thankful.

 

[AngelCreator]

I guess it was a good idea to start a new thread and poll,
and thanks Danisfast for giving me a idea on how long to run it:tup:.
I would also have to say "racer get lazy" because my series did'nt
make it to the 2nd round.

 

[Danisfast]

No probs,
New idea for series killers, too long. I reckon I could definitely use a bit of improvement in that department...But I suppose you can't blame the organiser as long as he's let the racers know what they're in for, then in which case it falls back into the dreaded 'lazy racers' catagory. There's gotta be an efficient way of killing that symptom...I still reckon some sort of online CV is th ebest way to go...
Danisfast

 

[Metar]

Under what category falls "Car-choice unbalanced"?

As an example, the GT4 DTM racers aren't that balanced - some are stronger, some have different drivetrains, and then there are weight differences. That way, the guy who chooses the best car has the advantage...

 

[Drew22]

Under what category falls "Car-choice unbalanced"?

As an example, the GT4 DTM racers aren't that balanced - some are stronger, some have different drivetrains, and then there are weight differences. That way, the guy who chooses the best car has the advantage...

Man, I couldn't agree with you more, I'm in the DTM series now and there was not nearly enough testing (if any) of the cars. And as you say, if you chose the right car you're almost assured a win week after week. I certainly don't mind losing, but I'd sure like there to be a chance of winning. After a few weeks of the same car winning, there will definatly be people dropping out. I posted my concerns about parity, but I was told I was wrong ....we'll see in a week or two.

 

[oldphart]

you got it right bro... as you said, we'll see

 

[Metar]

Man, I couldn't agree with you more, I'm in the DTM series now and there was not nearly enough testing (if any) of the cars. And as you say, if you chose the right car you're almost assured a win week after week. I certainly don't mind losing, but I'd sure like there to be a chance of winning. After a few weeks of the same car winning, there will definatly be people dropping out. I posted my concerns about parity, but I was told I was wrong ....we'll see in a week or two.

I mean, balancing is possible, and is actually a pretty easy thing - it just requires some extra testing.

Plus, I now see another reason. In Arcade Mode, there is no way to check the weight of a car - therefore, everyone could actually run at -10%. Which is, I guess, the reason why WRS stewards always put "-10% Weight" in arcade races. Also, there is no way to enforce a no-mod and stock-settings policy for GT Mode races - the replay can't tell if I'm using a racing flywheel, carbon driveshaft, or racing suspension. While trannys can be detected (an extra gear is noticable), and suspensions can, with a lot of picture-comparing, be found, the others simply improve performance in an un-noticable way.
Therefore, the only way I found it possible to regulate a series is the power-restriction - on Arcade, rather than weight-penalties, a power-penalty, and in GT-mode, a restriction of mods depending on position - first place can only run a stock exhaust, 2nd a sports, 3rd a semi-racing, 4th a full-mod, etc.
There are a lot of things to be considered when starting a series, as well as a lot of things that need to be changed during the series, and the maintaining of a fun series. Some of those aren't considered by the makers of series, which then causes even the best series to fail. Even the time of the year is vital - never run a series when many other popular ones are running, and also running a series at the december-january/may-june time, when university and school-students are busy with exams, may influence how many will enter, and how much effort will they be able to put into the series.

Thank you, I'm gonna strech my fingers...

Metar

 

[Drew22]

Right again Metar,(about the balancing) the JGTC series is very well balanced by weight and HP. Although it is a handicapped series, the cars were all tested first and parity was in place at the beginning using + and or - HP and weight. But I have been in a few DTM series that were plagued by problems of parity. Before starting a series all eligable cars need testing on several tracks and adjustments made to HP and or weight to make them as equal as possible, fine tuning can take place as needed. But it is vital that all cars are equal in performance in order to have a lasting series. Yeah I know that they're not equal in RL, but this isn't RL, this is a game for fun, but it's no fun competing (and I use that word loosly) week after week in an inferior car with little to no chance in winning. Again this week the Audi TT drivers lost a 9 lap race by over 30 seconds...WTF. This is not due to the drivers, I can take two different stock DTM cars and have 3 -5 seconds a lap difference on most every track...is that parity? Will that much difference in cars make a successful series.....I hardly think so. It's very hard to get excited to run a race when you know no matter how good you drive you will lose!!!

 

[Metar]

Yes, the JGTC seems like a highly interesting series, both in RL and in the game. Too bad I joined the GTP community too late...

 

[AngelCreator]

Thankyou everone who posted. This should give people some
idea's about what to do when making a race series and what not to do.
This poll will be closed soon(Sept 5) so if you want to vote you should do so.

 

[Tedehur]

As Metar said, GT4 doesn't provide many tools to make sure that the power/weight/parts restrictions are respected.
On an Arcade Mode replay, only power, tyres and driving aids can be checked, so there's no point in forbidding or restricting the weight, top speed setting or manual/automatic gearbox mode.
And it's even worse in GT Mode since the power displayed remains unaffected by an oil change and most of the parts cannot be checked.
GT3 was far better since replays were not crypted and MK's editor could tell you exactly what parts were fitted into the car.
That aspect must be taken into account by the organizer, or else the risk is high that the race/series will turn into a fiasco.

 

[Metar]

I actually learned that from you, Cyril. I checked out previous weeks - GT Mode and Arcade - and noticed one thing in common: All non-power parts are allowed, as well as oil-changes. And, that it's always -10% Weight (nice one on week 66)... So I asked myself - "If he sometimes does -x% power weeks, why doesn't he make any +x% weight week? And I found out why by trial and error. I checked what is possible to detect and what not trough a replay and and a ghost-analyzer. I actually think that if this week was a single-lap race, with a ghost, one could see the difference in power resulting from an Oil Change...

 

[goixoye]

I'm not around here much at all anymore so my opinion probably doesn't matter. I participated in several series. When I signed up I made a commitment and stuck to it. I participated in a 17 week long Nurb series and walked away in 2nd just because I showed up every week.

For me the failure was GT4 itself. No real time racing. You race by yourself then get on-line and post times. Since leaving GTP I've spent alot of time with TOCA Race Driver 3 (TRD3). While many things about the game aren't as nice as GT4 the on-line dimension more than makes up for it's short-comings. It's much more exciting to race lap after lap head-to-head than lap after lap for a single lap time and then wonder how you finished.

Where I've been racing has a little of both. Only 8 drivers fit in an on-line race room. Usually there are about 20-30 contenders over maybe 4 rooms. So you're in head to head competition with some drivers and then you have to wait and see how things stack up against the drivers from the other rooms.

It's a whole different experience racing in multi-lap events where you can chat back and forth as you go. You feel a stronger connection to your fellow competitors and can share set-ups and strategies.

Most events here don't have an element of strategy. With TRD3 you select a tire compound and decide on a pit window. Damage is also factor. You can set the car up like you do in GT4 but depending on the series you race in there are likely no HP modifications so everyone has an equal car. It's all about driving skill, tuning ability and strategy.

Admittedly GT4 is visually superior but TRD3 physics is second to none. The in-race experience is as solid as GT4. Unfortunately the replay mode may as well be nonexistent.

When racing here I would spend hours trying to shave 100ths of a second off lap times and than hate myself for wasting so much of my life on something so worthless. With TRD3 I do practice but probably spend about 6 hours practicing and about 2 hours racing per week. I probably spent nearly twice as much time with GT4. Not including all the on-line written chit-chat (actual verbal chit chat is much more tie efficient especially for those of us who are written communication challenged).

I know the poll is closed but my selection is not there anyway. Hopefully the next version of GT will have an on-line dimension. Until then you owe it to yourself to try TRD3. Just imagine being able to race the same folks you race here on a level playing field where you can actually talk to each other during the race. Oh and the person with the fastest single lap time rarely actually wins the race!

There is a better racing simulator choice for the PS2.