With regards to Qualification.

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Anyone here believe qualifying 9th and 10th is worse than qualiying 11th and 12th.

People who are in the top 10 shootout have to go out with race fuel right? So that means 11th and 12th can adjust their strategy to the people infront. Basically they can go on a full tank (while those in 9th and 10th have to break away, if they don't they will be surpassed due to pit strategy) and after first pit stops they should have nullified qualifying a few positions back.

Infact if I was a midfield team, I wouldn't bother aiming at the shootout, rather the 11th and 12th positions, and going on long stints on a full tank of fuel. Problem is keeping those behind you and doing consistent laps.

Food for thought. Anyone else consider this?

EDIT: Typo
 
Well, times from session 2 (places 16 - 11) don't count to session 3. So you might as well shoot at the top ten in session 2, because you could then luck your way into, say, 7th place on your correct fuel load in session 3. If you made it into session 3, the only real reason you would have for not setting a time would be that you were extremely marginal on engine mileage or tyres.

I've actually been thinking about the qualifying procedure. It's very good. There are no significant loopholes in it.
 
I think you misunderstood what I said.

Basically say a driver gets into the shootout (I'll call him John for this example). He goes on a half tank and qualifies 8th. His team mate who isn't as good qualifies 11th (I'll call him Jack). Now you'd expect John to try and break away since he's on a half tank but he's unable to, due to the fact that the top end of the grid, Renaults, Ferrari, McLaren are setting the pace, eventually after all stops have completed Jack should be in front via pit strategy and John qualifying 3 places ahead will have been nullified.

I'm not the best at explaining but I feel that qualifying 11th and 12th in itself is a blessing since you can plan your strategy based on those in the shootout, whilst those in the shootout have to use their race fuel.
 
@ GG - The only problem with trying to 'luck' in to a good spot is the 110% rule. As I understand, if you are in the top 10 you need to get within 110% of the pole sitter's time to get your fuel credits ie: to top your tanks back up properly. If one car goes out on a really low fuel load and you run heavy, then you run the risk of not being to top your tanks back up to where you had planned.

I think this system of qualifying is the best I've seen in any sort of series. I'd like to see it spread to other forms of motorsport.
 
One-stop strategies are detrimental to all but the fastest teams. If a driver qualifies 8th, and his teammate 11th, they'll probably make the same number of stops, but may have different stint lengths. I can't really see a disadvantage to qualifying 10th instead of 11th.
 
I had misunderstood the fuel rule until the session Saturday. I had thought they had to refuel to the level at the start of session 3, but they don't. They can't remove fuel, and the level at the start of session 3 is the most they can start the race with. Say a team loads up to half a tank, runs a bunch of laps and sets a decent time, they may decide (or have planned from the beginning) on a 3-stop instead of 2, and leave the car light.

Of course the down side of lots of laps is the 2-race engine rule. Use up your engine to burn off fuel, will it last 2 weekends?

I think everybody learned a lesson about waiting late in session 1, many teams almost lost the chance to even post a time. What if Kimi's crash has been one minute later? Would they have set the clock back, or waived the no times after session rule (flying lap in progress at the checker doesn't count)? Three minutes would not have been enough time to get an out lap and a timed lap. Suppose EVERYBODY went out at 4 minutes, you have 15 or 20 cars on an out lap, then Kimi scatters carbon all over the track and they red-flag the session, hot laps in progress don't count. Wouldn't that have been interesting?

As for the original question, would you be better starting 11th or 12th than 9th or 10th, I would have said yes except for the point about not being required to refuel to the level you started session 3 with. 11th or 12th place can make the car as heavy or light as they want, 9th and 10th are restricted to somewhere between where thay started and finished session 3. I still think 11th or 12th will be a result of your performance rather than a place to aim for. If you're midpack anyway and you try to "gauge" a 12th-place time, you may find yourself in 16th. If you end up in 11th, might you be better off than the two or 3 cars ahead on the grid? I don't think so. If you start light to pass early, you'll have to pit early and be back in traffic again anyway.

I like the fuel rule for the third session. It lines the top ten cars up more closely to actual race performance, and if they want to start heavy but set a good time, it keeps them on the track longer in the session while they burn down weight.

I REALLY like having traffic on the course. I have always hated single-car qualifying, not just in F1. The only thing it did was force TV to show EVERY car's livery, not just the hot guys everybody's really interested in. Beyond that, it was boring as hell, and high-risk for the drivers, as a simple mistake or bad break in weather could set them back for two or three races, as they qualify poorly, can't work to the front, don't get a good position in the next qualifying lineup, etc.
 
All it gives you is extra time. You can still run any fuel load you like in the race, no matter where you qualify.
 
liam2maps
I still am not entirely convinced. Ralf Schumacher got caught out in qualifying and practically started from the back.
Click to expand...

I don't follow. He didn't get caught out, he just didn't go fast enough. If he sat in the pits until Kimi's accident, he lost his opportunity to get more than a single lap, and if he got balked on that lap, too bad. There was plenty of time to get out earlier.
 
I think I see what your trying to get across liam2maps, but I don't see any significant advantage with it. You'd still have to set a competitive fuel strategy, your a bit screwed if you fuel up for a one stop but the top ten make a 20+ second gap before their first stop, the fuel advantage will be practially gone.

Another disadvantage is the heavy fuel load will have more effect on the tyres causing yours to wear down faster than the top 10. I think it's better to just go with how the top 10 appears to be and overtake them on the track. I.E. Rosberg, he started midfield, 2 stop strategy, finished 7th.

The only way a 1 stop would really work is if you have a faster car than the cars you've qualified around. I.E. Kimi, his one stopper worked perfectally because he has a good car under him, he demolished the back field within 5 laps, if you did that in say a BMW or Toyota you'd be lucky to get into the top 10.
 
liam2maps, are you saying that, in an effort to get yourself higher up the top 10, you could put yourself at a significant strategic disadvantage compared with someone behind you? I think you'd need to be quite ham-fisted for that to happen. Yes, your 11th-on-the-grid rival has a "free" fuel strategy, and they may well be able to make inferences about your strategy from your behaviour in session 3. But how that would turn into enough of an advantage for what would be a slower car/driver combo I can't really see. You've got track position on them, which gives you the flexibility to run a longer first stint, and that in turn means you can control their pace. You just have to stay in front at the start.
 
The problem is that it might be hard to break away, let alone pass other drivers in the top ten. I still think qualifying 11th and 12th is better than at least 10th.

I think some of you got a bit of an understanding on what I was trying to say. I just think that with the reintroduction with tyre changes pitting is more vital and so is strategy. Qualifying 10th and 11th is the closest you can get to the top 10 and still have more of a safety net if your strategy goes bust. I am speaking from a midfield teams perspective, Red Bull, BMW etc.

Anywho thanks for the opinions and enjoy the next race in Malaysia :)
 

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