Working on Europa Special '72...Need a little help

Discussion in 'GT6 Tuning' started by slayer91, Feb 6, 2014.

  1. slayer91

    slayer91

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    Been toying around with the Europa this evening. Trying to keep it under 500pp, running at 498 right now with 213HP, full weight reduction, 46:54 distribution, SS tires and +2 diameter wheels. Have played with the LSD and suspension, especially the camber angle, and cannot get rid of that pesky oversteer. If anyone has a decent tune or pointers, let me know. I see potential in this car, but can't even go around a soft corner without this this beast kicking out.
     
  2. BlueShift

    BlueShift

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    Few tips as I've been studying irl aerodynamics recently:

    About top speed and handling vs wind:
    - The Europa is known as an exceptional aerodynamical car, not only for her time but also by today's standards with her 0.29 Cx (Cd if you're from USA) and very tiny front section aswell => I would not use mindlessly the Aero kits or at least not without testing them a lot before.

    About top speed, braking:
    - "+2 diameter wheel" are not +2 diameter wheels. This is +2 diameter rims, the wheel size doesn't change. To test this for real if I'm not telling bs, RPM at top speed with a very wide gearbox shouldn't change between +0 rims and +2 rims. If it does, I'm telling bs there and I would be very curious and enjoyed about your results.

    - I don't know if in GT6 the wheel weigths (unsprung mass) changes due to the rim materials, irl this improve braking (a lot) and susp (little less unsprung mass) and accel (few). Wheel inertia should be better (ie smaller) with modern materials but I don't think the game accounts this. Without a dedicated 1/4 mile or 400m track, it's quite difficult to test this accuratly.

    About Camber:
    - Everybody (but one very vocal person here) thinks the camber is "broken". Every people (but 1) that test more camber gets bad laptime and bad corner grip vs the same setting without camber. I suggest leaving the camber at 0/0 until PD show a patch with working camber.

    About the pesky "oversteer":
    Is it corner entry or corner exit oversteer ? Solutions aren't the same.
    A classic solution I use for corner entry is raising decel and for corner exit lowering rear comp, but that's just main methods, there's lots of them.
    Another classic solution to figth oversteer is playing with antiroll bars depending of kind of oversteer you have.
    Stiffening the chassi would figth both kind of oversteer on most cars, but make it worst on some cars.

    I also suggest taking the gaz weigth into account. The game gives weigth ratio without gaz, but in arcade, online and carrier mode, the gaz is there even if you don't set the race to account this online or are in S class.
    The general consensus about the driver's weigth is the driver weigth = 0.
    You have to find the gaz tank capacity in liters on the web, multiply this by 0.755 kg/l and use ballast somewhere on the car where you think the gaz tank is : if you set your spring rates by weigth ratio, you would have to change this.
    From a 600kg 46:54, you could in fact being at 650kg 43:57 or more in the rear, your oversteer comes primarily from there I think.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2014
    Johnnypenso likes this.
  3. rams1de

    rams1de

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    I couldn't believe there's no tune for this car in the tune index at the top of the forum, since loads of people will have the anniversary edition.

    I'm quite useless in MR cars, there's a knack to driving them that I'm some way short of mastering. I used this car for a few A spec races and modified it to get round in one piece.

    Can't remember exactly, but LSD was something like 10 | 12 | 25, Camber 0 | 0, Toe 0 | +0.25. Rest of suspension was left stock and the car was good enough to win it's races at lower PP than the opposition, so that might be a good starting point to work on making a quick tune.

    If your still struggling with oversteer in corners, a useful way to tame it would be adding weight and moving it forward to get 48 | 52 distribution which will be much easier to handle.
     
  4. demonchilde

    demonchilde

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    I don't own this car, and am not near my PS3 ATM, but I'll take a look here.

    Well, if it's oversteer your battling, is there any way you could get it closer to 50/50 weight? 46/54 will definatly add lots of oversteer.
    You could bring your accel and initial LSD closer to 20 to see if that helps, not sure where it is now?
    Make sure your height is even, and springs are somewhat close to each other and not more loose in the front.
    What is your toe settings?
    When I first test toe, I try these settings each and take notes;
    0/0
    -.10/+.10
    -.10/-.10
    +.10/+.10
    And I run laps with each and compare results. Then fine tune from there.
    Keep your camber 0/0 for now.
    What are your dampers at?

    I don't know, lol, good luck.
    I will revisit this when I get home on my PS3.
    Peace bro
     
  5. demonchilde

    demonchilde

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    I looked at this a minute ago, and said " no one responded?!?! I'll try to help him out then"

    I hit post reply, and I'm one of 3 people to post a reply in the exact same minute! Lol, that's awesome ^^
     
  6. Woodski_427

    Woodski_427

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    In my humble and amateur opinion, LSD is key in this game, and should be your starting point. Once you've balanced this, look at springs: lower it somewhat, but don't slam and then do the spring rates.

    It became clear to me after reading @Motor City Hami 's tuning guide that weight transfer is much more important in Gt6 than in 5. Watch replays and see if the outside rear is being overloaded as the car rolls - a common feature I have found in older RWD cars with soft suspension.

    If so, try moving some ballast forward to reduce the weight over the rears and the pendulum effect, and look at firming up the rear spring rates and or ARBs.

    Or if you have too hard a setup, you could be bouncing, skipping and losing grip. In that case soften up!

    Of course MR driving technique will be key in such a short and light car.

    Good luck:tup:
     
  7. XS

    XS Premium

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    I spend five hours on this car. I just could not push this car to 500pp. No matter what I did the oversteer was still there. I tried every imaginable setup, then like I usually do when out of options, just started throwing random numbers at it and the oversteer was still there. Here's the setup I think got the closest:
    RH: doesn't seem to matter at all LOL
    SR: 4.25 | 3.83
    DC: 3 | 1
    DE: 4 | 2
    Antiroll: 3 | 1
    Camber: 0 | 0
    Toe 0.00 | 0.25
    LSD: 5 | 7 | 38
    Ballast: 35kg at the front

    And even though that setup produced the fastest lap times, the lift-off oversteer was still there. On throttle was great, but even with decel set at 50 there was lift-off oversteer. I'm not sure this one can be tamed honestly. But I also thought that about the Europa in GT5 and both Praiano and Clueless eventually found setups that worked great, so I guess there's still hope.
     
  8. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    I will have a look at this later. At a glance though, dropping the rear toe could solve your oversteer issues. Try dropping it to 0.18 or lower. I've been finding that toe is really effective for countering oversteer in gt6
     
  9. XS

    XS Premium

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    I tried rear toe at 0.05, 0.10, 0.12, 0.15, etc. and the oversteer persisted. Like I said, that tune above is plagued by oversteer, it's just the fastest tune I got out of five hours of tweaking. Ballast doesn't seem to help this car as much as it did in GT5. Honestly the car loved 460pp, but push it past that and things start to come undone.
     
  10. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    Ahh ok fair enough, it just stood out to me initially but if you've tested it then I can't argue. I've experienced the same thing with the Silvia S13, the car just wants to slide all the time and there's nothing you can do to stop it. Seems thats just the way the way they're programmed
     
  11. BlueShift

    BlueShift

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    Just a quick reply to confirm the wheel size doesn't change, that's only the rims:

    281PS @7500rpm on CS-CS tires, gearbox at 350km/h:
    +0 rim : 328km/h @8300rpm
    +2 rim : 328km/h @8300rpm

    For 8300rpm, she gave the same number of wheel revolution per hour (aka speeds are the same) for +0 and +2 rims.

    If she had bigger wheels with those parts, the speed wouldn't have been the same in the "+2" test.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2014
  12. XS

    XS Premium

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    Feel free to tweak that car, you seem to do pretty good work. I'm sure somebody can tune it to 500pp so it's at least usable for 500pp races. With this car at 500pp I'm struggling to keep up with lower pp cars because I'm having to slow too much for corner entry to keep it stable but power-on it's fine. Honestly, it reminds me of a larger Kart 125cc Shifter. Hmm, that gets me thinking, maybe I should tweak the brake balance and drive the car like a Kart and see what happens.
     
  13. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    I will have a play with it later and see if it can be tamed, I've never really liked the Europa in GT so it should be interesting.
     
  14. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    Not sure if my tune will help, but I have built one since 1.03, it was capable of easy consistent 1:43 at Brands Hatch GP, 500PP on comfort soft, no ballast, stock gearing, custom suspension and LSD. Will check if it's still okay on 1.04 :D

    @slayer91 : Looks like it works fine, I will post this on my garage and here, hopefully you will like it.
     
    Last edited: Feb 6, 2014
  15. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    Car: Lotus Europa Special '72


    Wheel / Joypad: PS3 controller
    Power:
    246 BHP @ 7000 Rpm / 26.9 kgfm @ 6000 Rpm
    Weight: 714 kg
    Performance Points: 500
    Tires: SS

    Suspension
    : (Height-Adjustable, Fully-Customisable Suspension)


    Ride Height: Front: 90 Rear: 88
    Spring Rate: Front: 6.17 kg Rear: 6.05 kg
    Dampers (Compression): Front: 3 Rear: 3
    Dampers (Extension): Front: 4 Rear: 4
    Anti-Roll Bars: Front: 3 Rear: 3
    Camber Angle (-): Front: 0.0° Rear: 0.0°
    Toe Angle: Front: 0.00° Rear: 0.18°
    Brakes: Racing Upgrade F: 5 R: 5

    Drivetrain: (Fully Customisable Transmission)
    Speed: 112 mph
    1: 2.532
    2:
    1.784
    3: 1.337
    4: 1.058
    5: 0.824
    Final: 3.998

    Differential Gear:Fully Customisable Mechanical Limited-Slip Diff

    Initial Torque: R= 10
    Acceleration Sensitivity: R= 17
    Braking Sensitivity: R= 12
    Clutch & Flywheel: Twin-plate
    Propeller Shaft: Standard

    Centre Differential: Standard

    Power
    Oil Change: Yes
    Power Limiter: 100%
    Engine Tuning: Stage 3
    Computer: SportsComputer
    Exhaust: Race Exhaust
    Exhaust Manifold: Isometric
    Catalytic Converter: Sports
    Intake Tuning: Yes
    Turbo Kit: Stage: Low RPM Turbo Kit
    Nitrous Oxide (N2O): No

    Body

    Body Rigidity Improvement: No

    Weight Reduction: Stage 3
    Bonnet: Carbon
    Windows: Weight Reduction
    Ballast: 65kg
    Ballast position: - 50
     
  16. XS

    XS Premium

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    How do you like it? Fairly happy with it? Definitely going to try both your guys' tunes later.
     
  17. DolHaus

    DolHaus

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    I found both a little bit soft for my tastes, I think weight transfer is the route of this cars general problems. Once I'd stiffened it up I no longer found that it wanted to step out under braking and was easier to manage coming out of the bends. Usually when stiffening a car up you get understeer from the front and oversteer from the rear but I didn't find it the case with this car unless taken to extremes
     
  18. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    11,646
    Okay, here is the tune from 1.03 that I have updated :


    Hope this helps :D
     
  19. slayer91

    slayer91

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    Much appreciated, all of you. Not near the PS3 at the moment, but will play around with these later. Usually, even in GT6, I don't have this much trouble with MR cars. I had the LSD turned up to 20/60/60 and it didn't seem to have any effect. As some of you pointed out, I think adding camber made it worse. The problems seem to stem from deceleration in turns, at least for me, and snowballs from there. Should also add that I am using a DS3 and run with all aids off, spare a little ABS. Also, my car is naturally asspirated, 213 HP.
     
    DolHaus likes this.
  20. slayer91

    slayer91

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    Ridox, the tune worked great. The car is still a challenging yet fun drive, but not the barely manageable monster it was before. Thank you all again for the input.
     
    Ridox2JZGTE likes this.
  21. Ridox2JZGTE

    Ridox2JZGTE

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    Happy that it worked :)

    If you want more stable front but more tendency to push, use 7.20kg/mm front spring and 6.00kg/mm rear spring, the rest stays the same. I have fine tuned the damper, ARB and toe, so changing only the spring rate in moderation will alter the handling characteristics without ruining it :lol:
    Running stiffer spring front than rear will generally make it more stable, you can feel firmer front but at a cost of understeer/push on some corners and chances of oversteer on exit.
    While running stiffer rear than front will make the car loose, but don't go over board :) I find that 6kh/mm rear spring is quite a nice balance. You can run stiffer set : 6.5kg/mm front and 7.5kg/mm rear, and see if you like it.
    Softer spring ( below 5kg/mm ) IMO do not work well with Europa :)

    The main part of my tune is actually the LSD, this is tuning part that bonds the suspension + chassis to the road. I intentionally increase LSD initial torque ( preload ) and braking sensitivity to make it more responsive as well stable at any speed. The accel is lower as the car needs moderate locking. I set the balance so the car do not understeer or too tight with 30 initial and 30 braking. You can try 40 initial and 40 braking, while accel at 13, leaving the rest the same, take a note of the changes :)
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2014