Yamauchi at DICE 2011: Gran Turismo to invoke mimesis creating Existance

[Destinkeys]

What has been released since GT5, Tenacious? TDU2? It has been pretty slim pickings since November...

I think, unless SMS turn everything around they have shown us (remember, last time, EA had NO arcade racer, so Shift got nerfed into one - this time, they have HP, and SMS seem determined to take a crack at GT) that we will at least have an ALTERNATIVE to GT5 by April. It won't be until then that the PS3 users have any choice in the matter whatsoever.

But, IMO, Shift 1, other than the dismal physics (and wheel FFB issues), was even a year or more ago, a FAR better 'racing' game than GT5. Smaller car selection, sure, but what racing series has 1000 cars to choose from, anyway? Real racing, in the real world, puts up with FAR more limitations than any game... Shift 1 had a better real world track selection, and Shift 2's is quite spectacular compared to GT5.

Shift's AI were fun, and competitive, two things that GT5's AI completely lack. Why is this allowed such a degree of tolerance? I sure see little tolerance for poor AI from GT fans in any OTHER game! Shift's AI, you add an engine stage, THEY add an engine stage. Out-muscling your AI opponent was very difficult to do. Shift's AI had the same crash physics as the player's car. Shift's AI actually RACED each other as aggressively as they raced YOU. So, enough already! These things CAN be done. Just apparently, not by PD...

Shift's game progression was logical and grind-free, but by no means a walk in the park, due to the AI. Shift had four Tiers of cars, that needed game progression to unlock, although a few were unlocked from the start (the 'Loaner' cars) so there was no griping from the ADD crowd. And, I remember at Shift's forum, I believe BECAUSE the game progression WAS logical and grind-free, and a few bones thrown to let noobs hoon around faster than they could control, there wasn't the incessant whining (or 'legitimate complaining', depending on your mood that day!) about how UNFAIR (sob!) it was that you couldn't drive every car in the game on Day 1. How weird, to find EA players more mature than GT's!

But GT5's grind is so well known, everybody KNOWS there is no way in hell OTHER than to cheat to get most of them.

Shift's rewards for online racing were equivalent to offline racing. If you wanted to buy almost the entire garage, you could do it just as easily by racing online than by racing the AI. Shift's online matchmaking meant you could still get a decent race without a posse of Friends online. Shift had REAL One-Design (Spec) racing. Everyone in the same car, same tune, and it being entirely skill at the wheel to decide the winner. Shift showed fastest lap at the end of the races, so if you didn't win, you might get some satisfaction of getting fastest lap (listen to F1 drivers if you don't think that matters to a real racer!).

Shift's racing SOUNDS are among the best in the industry. Not a vacuum cleaner in the bunch! Its cockpit and hood views put GT to shame... Oh yeah, there's greater DETAIL in a GT cockpit, but get up to speed, and your head is bouncing around so much, you can't see it! Shift, your vision didn't blur as much, the CAR did (just like what happens IRL). And Shift had a REAL 'hood cam', where you could judge apexes by seeing the car's corners, rather than the 'invisible car' cam, which is SO arcade! Oh, and each car, in Shift's hood cam (let alone cockpit view), the ACTUAL speedo and tach from the car was displayed, not some generic embarrassment that will burn-in to any plasma if played long enough.

From playing GT online enough, I can definitely say that there are JUST as many bashers, trashers and plain sociopaths playing GT than were ever on Shift! And, due to GT's unregulated, undirected online, it is a fractured and incoherent muddle of myriads of lobbies with fractionally different hp/kg and class requirements, making finding a lobby that works with YOUR cars (and their upgrades) FAR harder to do than in Shift. Choice (unlimited) is not always a good thing!

Look, I could go on all NIGHT about how just about everything about RACING in Shift 1 was better than GT5. I played it obsessively for about a year (until I was an idiot and started to believe the GT5 hype). If you have played it, D, what OTHER than the physics (graphics doesn't count - racing is more about the experience and immersion than polygon count) is better in GT5?

I'm sorry, but if GT5 is what passes for a 'racing' game from PD, give me EA any day! At least they don't go 'OK, we got the physics down, let's go out to lunch for the next four years!'

 

[Luminis]

GT5 has a little over 200 premium models that are far more detailed than anything Shift2 is bringing to the table.

One thing I always find somewhat amusing:
Shifts cars can basically all be race modified, aside from the race cars that are already present. In GT, those would be (and are) counted as individual cars. I'm curious with how many cars one will end up with if one was to applicate the same math to Shift 2. Just saying.

So why get hung up on the standard cars ? Immature or troll ? I can't decide which.

Lack of features? Looks? Both?

I have thought about it. A Gran Turismo that offered your list of goodies would be an awesome game.

Personally, I'd think every game that pulls that of would be awesome

In fact, I have a feeling that half the complaints people have about GT5 would still be there, even if the game was close to perfect.

I have a feeling as well. That the people who love the game currently would love it no matter how many flaws it had, no matter how rubbish it was.

Because. In spite of everyone whining about how Kaz killed GT5, something keeps bringing millions of us back to playing it, and more buying it. Even when a supposedly better game is out there already.

Doesn't EA do the same with the NFS franchise? Nowadays, I just don't consider sales figures to be an indicator of the quality of a game. Especially not for one that was pre-ordered like mad because people trusted in its name and developer.
Otherwise, World of Warcraft would probably have to be one of the best games ever... Just like Call of Duty...

It's that special something that will keep me a GT fan till I die, most likely.

I guess I'm totally missing that special something. Might that be emotional attachement, maybe? Would be about the only thing I can think of.

TL;DR version: I guess my GT5 is just more fun than your guys' GT5. Oh well.

Maybe it's more due to your personal preferences and whjat you want from the game. Maybe your opinion differs so much from a lot of other people's, because you just happen to be one of a very few selected people that wanted exactly what GT5 brought to the table. Nothing more, nothing less. Well, nothing more, for the most part.
It's a matter of focus, I think. Some people enjoy focusing on driving, some like to focus on racing. For the latter, GT5 will probably not be as satisfying.
I doubt a lot of people dislike the game because they want to dislike it.
I doubt someone's spending 60$ for a game he/she wants to dislike.
And, lastly, I doubt that it's hard to dislike it.

Look, I could go on all NIGHT about how just about everything about RACING in Shift 1 was better than GT5. I played it obsessively for about a year (until I was an idiot and started to believe the GT5 hype). If you have played it, D, what OTHER than the physics (graphics doesn't count - racing is more about the experience and immersion than polygon count) is better in GT5?

On the graphics:
Personally, I don't even think GT5's graphics are that much better. The premium models are, but there are so many inconsistencies that i, personally, find it hard to objectively say 'GT5 has better graphics'.
Not with the amount of screen tearing, frame rate drops, flickering shadows, blocky smoke and rain and the standard cars as well as some of the worse tracks.
It has a higher poly count and more detailed car models, but whether it's actually better looking when in motion? Dunno. Photo mode? Yes, it definitely looks better. But, while racing...?

 

[TheToad263]

i have absollutely no idea what is going on....

What?

+1

 

[TheToad263]

I just laughed and heard Towlies voice in my head. HAHAHA

 

[sk0pe]

Destinkeys - But GT5's grind is so well known, everybody KNOWS there is no way in hell OTHER than to cheat to get most of them.

You don't have to cheat to get most of them, that's your choice if you want to cheat I have every Ferrari there is, about another 25-30 cars worth $500k + , A jaguar XJ-13, and in 2 levels time i will have a few X1's. ( And also a bucketload of car's under $500k )
You do not have to cheat what-so-ever, that's just a load of bs to be frank.
No trade,no dupe, no b-day bs. Just jump in cockpit and race for the love of racing and when i can afford car's i buy them. Simple.

You are defnitely more suited for the Shift genre than GT.
GT is about slowly acquiring cars, there is no rush.Any old school GT fun will understand the patience of slowly building up your car's and spending hour's upon hour's tuning to perfection the car's that you do have. It's a car lover's game, made by someone in love with cars.

 

[grrlpurple]

If other racing games can manage to program AI that is a challenge, and a game that responds to YOU (upgrade your car, the AI upgrade, too, bash them and they bash back etc.), what part of 'mimesis' does Kaz not get?

Not wrong... in fact I seem to remember more intelligent and challenging AI on TOCA 2 on my PS1

 

[Luminis]

YoYou are defnitely more suited for the Shift genre than GT.
GT is about slowly acquiring cars, there is no rush.Any old school GT fun will understand the patience of slowly building up your car's and spending hour's upon hour's tuning to perfection the car's that you do have. It's a car lover's game, made by someone in love with cars.

And that's the biggest problem GT5 has. It's made by someone who's trying to make a museum out of a game, a virtual stamp collection of cars.
If the 'Shift genre' you're reffering to contains actual racing, sign me up for it.

GT5 is like a hard parker. Looks fast, could go fast, but the boss decided it's not going fast.

 

[sk0pe]

And that's the biggest problem GT5 has. It's made by someone who's trying to make a museum out of a game, a virtual stamp collection of cars.
If the 'Shift genre' you're reffering to contains actual racing, sign me up for it.

GT5 is like a hard parker. Looks fast, could go fast, but the boss decided it's not going fast.

You can have the race day feel, race day atmosphere and a wet bar of soap sliding around a shower floor for car physics, don't let me stop ya enjoying that.

I wish GT5 had more of a race day feel etc i really really do, but i can live with it. I get enough enjoyment out of it already as it is.
As do you obviously or you would be in the Shift1 forums, not here.

 

[Khoin]

60 million Gran Turismo games sold say you're wrong. Even if you think GT5 is a waste of a Blu-ray, there are four-plus predecessors which sold around 50 million.

Kaz brings to Gran Turismo that special essence which keeps you posting here, keeps us racing in it,and make other game developers copy it.

Not really. I never denied that GT1 was a revolutionary title. How much of that was due to Kaz, I don't know, but I'll assume it's a lot.

However, in my opinion, the game has evolved, but not as much as I would like. Nor has it had any major revolutions, which I would somewhat expect from a "visionary" producer. I don't think it's a waste of a blu-ray, I think it's a good game. This "good" is the end-result of a number of pro's and con's. The pro's are, in essence, the same as they were in GT1:

-Lots of real cars, lovingly recreated using the hardware available to it's limit.
-Real and imaginary tracks to provide a good number of places to race (or drive, whatever tickles your fancy) those cars.
-The ability to tune and upgrade cars "reallistically"
-Reallistic(ish) physics.

Now, this has evolved through the various GT's in accordance to hardware improvements. More and better looking cars and tracks, better physics.

However, has it evolved as much as one would hope for? In my case, not really... Especially not in GT5.

Yes, it's all still there, that "GT magic". But, flaws and quirks are also still there. Some might say it provides a certain charm to the series, which is true to some extent (or more to the point, for some quirks, like the elevator music for instance). But this can't be said for all issues. Clunky menus, weird tuning options, limited real "racing" options. None of these have really improved (enough) throughout the series. And a lot have taken a step backward in GT5 (Qualifying gone, tuning lost some options, etc.).

Add to that that the amount of cars in true GT5 grandness is way below GT4, as is the amount of races. Sure, the premium cars are awesomely detailed. But, would slightly less detail and a larger roster not have pleased more people?

We have gotten some new stuff, yes.

Online, but that's just regular evolution, a series as high-profile as GT should be expected to include a very good online mode in this day and age. It's good, but is it very good?

Bspec. Sure, it's a whole new sort of gameplay. But, is it worth it? I'm sure Kaz has some vision of what this should be and why it should be in game. But is that actually beneficial for the quality of the game? Would GT have lost any customers if it had never been introduced?

Photo mode: It's a nice bonus feature, I'm sure many players really enjoy it. It's also nothing really special though...

Levelling: "oh I want it to be MMO like, so let's implement the worst part of any MMO in the most horrendous way possible!"

None of this is any major revolution. None of this has moved the series beyond what it started out as.

Thus, I conclude: the game is good. It's not good overall, it's great in some places and bad in others. It's good enough to be very enjoyable still. But, I think that if development had been taken in a different direction, it could have been freakin' awesome. Kaz seems to be "the man", this is his baby, he decides what is going to happen with it. I doubt if his vision is still good for the game.

Of course, this is just my take on it. Probably there's millions of players who think it's the best possible game and Kaz has done more good for it than could humanly be expected. It's just an opinion. It's sold a lot of copies, so it must be somewhat good. Well yes, it is. And it's a very strong name still. I just think it could have been better, and possibly have sold more (or at least had people playing it more and have had more people already dreaming of GT6, and not because they hope it will fix issues in GT5)

 

[RikkiGT-R]

I don't know why people insist on saying /thread... But anyway I agree.

Well, in my case I basically mean "best post of the thread/thread stopping post"... But yeah, I've never used that until I joined GTP. I think it's just rubbed off on me; following the M.O of the forum, so to speak

 

[Tenacious D]

What has been released since GT5, Tenacious? TDU2? It has been pretty slim pickings since November...

No one else has said anything about new games solely. In fact, you go on and on about an old game...

But, IMO, Shift 1, other than the dismal physics (and wheel FFB issues), was even a year or more ago, a FAR better 'racing' game than GT5.

Well, it seems that the gaming world disagrees with you on that. I'l just boil down your praise rather than slog through your post. Shift has (for you):

• Better *vroom vroom* sounds
• Better track selection
• Better A.I.
• Racing that is remotely sort of loosely based on real world events

Which is cool and all, except the handling is crap. In fact, some tracks will bounce you completely off the road when you get to serious racing. Maybe all of them, I wasn't willing to find out.

But GT5's grind is so well known, everybody KNOWS there is no way in hell OTHER than to cheat to get most of them.

I didn't cheat. I'm almost level 35 and have several hundred cars I want. In multiples. No duping, no trading, nothing but racing. I think your sentence says more about you than GT5.

You can go on and on all you like, but the world sure doesn't seem to be flocking to Shift, which right now is pretty cheap. But let me add to your list of awesome racers.

• Forza 2 and 3.
• Ferrari Challenge, Supercar Challenge, and the PSN game who's name escapes me. These are essentially Forza tweaked a bit for the PS3. Give 'em a shot.
• Dirt series.
• F1 2010.

Have at it.

Doesn't EA do the same with the NFS franchise? Nowadays, I just don't consider sales figures to be an indicator of the quality of a game. Especially not for one that was pre-ordered like mad because people trusted in its name and developer.
Otherwise, World of Warcraft would probably have to be one of the best games ever... Just like Call of Duty...

While I'm with you on WoW and EA Sports games, I can understand why the fans flock to both. With hockey we thankfully still have alternatives, as we do with WoW. But I think this is the problem with your remarks here. You don't care for WoW and equate it to a poor game. Well, being an MMO player myself, I can attest to you that it is not. I just don't care for the style. Maybe you should have said The Sims, then I'd be in complete agreement.

I guess I'm totally missing that special something. Might that be emotional attachement, maybe? Would be about the only thing I can think of.

No it's not nostalgia or I'd also be playing GT4, which a few people are. But I'm not. But you obviously aren't getting it. I've posted about this before, but I'm not the only one. Many others have. Mods have. I think even Jordan has. So whatever you're experiencing, you're missing it.

But, you must have experienced something of it, or you wouldn't be here.

I'm racing. I like the racing more than any other game. I think it's pretty clear by now that I like the Standards a lot. I have hundreds of them after all, and only 150 or so Prems. And I don't care for cockpit view much at all. I haven't gone into Photo Mode or the Course Maker yet. I haven't had much fun with online racing. So my experience is completely with offline bot racing. If you think this is ludicrous, I don't care. There are people who race offline pretty much exclusively, and are having a blast like I am.

But this is the thing. Some of you just can't believe that GT5 can be enjoyed as GT games traditionally have. Some of you, this drives you right up the wall. But this is because you don't like what we do. We like collecting cars. We don't gag at the Standards. We love racing in all these cars on amazing looking tracks, with physics close to what a PC sim has to offer. Even with graphic glitches, we love watching replays which resemble real life racing film.

Race modding, tinkering to the nth degree, livery painting... yadda yadda, yes, all those would be awesome. But this is what we do, because other games don't offer all this. I own many of the other racing games you'd care to mention, but I don't race them, and that's why. If you don't get it, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist and we're a bunch of blind fanboys.

 

[Luminis]

While I'm with you on WoW and EA Sports games, I can understand why the fans flock to both. With hockey we thankfully still have alternatives, as we do with WoW. But I think this is the problem with your remarks here. You don't care for WoW and equate it to a poor game. Well, being an MMO player myself, I can attest to you that it is not. I just don't care for the style. Maybe you should have said The Sims, then I'd be in complete agreement.

Well, I've played WoW for four (or something) years. Personally, I'm of the opinion that it got worse as it got more popular. Granted, that's just personal preference, but I think it got the point acress
It could easily be replaced with any other masmarket game. The Sims would actually have been one of the best examples... Why didn't I think of that

No it's not nostalgia or I'd also be playing GT4, which a few people are. But I'm not. But you obviously aren't getting it. I've posted about this before, but I'm not the only one. Many others have. Mods have. I think even Jordan has. So whatever you're experiencing, you're missing it.

But, you must have experienced something of it, or you wouldn't be here.

What I experienced is a game that has its good and part parts, that, to me, is the all-time low of an awesome series. But I don't get a very different feel from it than what I get from, say, Forza. Not just from GT5, but the Gran Turismo franchise as a whole. I really don't get some esoteric feeling from GT games. A sense of polishment (which is, to me, lacking in GT5), yeah. A certain 'care' the game is (or has been) executed with, too. But with GT5, those have been ephemeral appearences at best.
Eben with GT4, which I would've rated as a 10/10, I didn't get that feeling. All I experienced was a darn good, 10/10 game, but it felt no different from other games I'd rate at 10/10, like StarCraft II or GTA IV.

And, for being active around here, that's largely because of GTPlanet, not so much because of GT5. Strange, I guess, but that's the way it is, for me. And until I'm putting GT5 aside for good, that'll stay this way, I guess.

I'm racing. I like the racing more than any other game. I think it's pretty clear by now that I like the Standards a lot. I have hundreds of them after all, and only 150 or so Prems. And I don't care for cockpit view much at all. I haven't gone into Photo Mode or the Course Maker yet. I haven't had much fun with online racing. So my experience is completely with offline bot racing. If you think this is ludicrous, I don't care. There are people who race offline pretty much exclusively, and are having a blast like I am.

I'm not saying that that's a bad thing or that you aren't allowed to enjoy it. Far from it. I think it's great that GT5 satisfies you, as it's always a good thing when someone is happy with a purchased product.
I just can't connect to it and do the same, that's all.
As for the racing part, I just don't get that feeling from GT5. It doesn't make me feel like I'm participating in a race.
It feels more like driving a fast car on the autobahn. You're avoiding slower cars and go fast, but that doesn't feel like racing, to me.

But this is the thing. Some of you just can't believe that GT5 can be enjoyed as GT games traditionally have. Some of you, this drives you right up the wall. But this is because you don't like what we do. We like collecting cars. We don't gag at the Standards. We love racing in all these cars on amazing looking tracks, with physics close to what a PC sim has to offer. Even with graphic glitches, we love watching replays which resemble real life racing film.

That's why a lot of people are saying GT5 would have been an incredible game - in 2004. GT5 still is the visual stamp collection/sunday drive mix that it was half a decade ago.
That in and off itself isn't even a bad thing, if it added a few more, well, different elements to the mix. It, however, didn't.
And here's the catch: Back in 2004, I didn't know better. I hadn't experienced how nice those missing features can be.

In 2010, when GT5 was released, I did know about those features. I had already enjoyed them and when I looked at GT5, I thought "this is the epitome of a racing game that you loved so much back in the day?"
I guess you could say I have been spoiled; spoiled by games that made me open my eyes and made me notice what GT5 lacks.
I never realised that a racing experience hails from more than how well the cars are modeled and how nice the physics are until I realised that when palying a game that actually offered it.

This issue isn't about 'not getting' GT, it's about GT being the same-old same-old when I, for one, expected it to take a step (or two, even) forward. Especially because it was already done by games that, prior to GT5, I considered to be 'lesser' franchises.

TLDR: GT5 isn't bad, it's just outdated. It's not that it couldn't provide me with what I wanted (I guess), but that PD decided to not go that route.

Race modding, tinkering to the nth degree, livery painting... yadda yadda, yes, all those would be awesome. But this is what we do, because other games don't offer all this. I own many of the other racing games you'd care to mention, but I don't race them, and that's why. If you don't get it, it doesn't mean it doesn't exist and we're a bunch of blind fanboys.

I don't consider someone someone who prefers the overall package GT5 offers as a fanboy. But if it comes down to:
A) Being a good game and
B) Offering good racing
I can't see how GT5 can be defended. I'm not saying that it can't be enjoyed. I consider Hanna Montana to be awful music, and can't understand how people can enjoy that stuff, but they do. And as far as actual racing and gameplay go, GT5 is like Hanna Montana to me.
Of course there's someone who enjoys it, but I really don't get why when there's just so much more to a videogame's racing experience than what you get with this particular product.

No doubt, GT5 pulls of the 'driving simulator' part quite well. And I do know that that's what's written on the box. However, the games main content seems to be racing, at that where it fails. Racing and gameplay.

Maybe I'm just fastidious, but I do expect more from a game with GT5's heritage. Good looks and physics alone won't convince me a given piece of software is a good game, let alone offers a good racing experience.

 

[Exorcet]

Kaz brings to Gran Turismo that special essence which keeps you posting here, keeps us racing in it,and make other game developers copy it.

To be honest, most of my posts here are either:

-To get into online racing
-List improvements I'd like to see in the game

I don't put GT on a pedestal above other games. I did at one point, but after seeing what else is out there, it's impossible to do so. I do think GT is still a good game, flaws and all [mainly because I ignore almost everything that isn't online, and I'm fortunate to be able to], but some flaws just seem so obvious that I need to call them out. And speaking of copying, I think PD is the one who really needs to copy a few things.

If GT truly was great beyond all comparison, I probably wouldn't be on the forums, except maybe the online section.

 

[Tenacious D]

Your post basically boils down to one thing:

I don't consider someone someone who prefers the overall package GT5 offers as a fanboy. But if it comes down to:
A) Being a good game and
B) Offering good racing
I can't see how GT5 can be defended.

See, this is once again, your viewpoint. You insist that you have the correct perspective and anyone else is just too easy to please or something. Or, dare I say it, a fanboy.

You can't see why I've abandoned Forza 3. But evidently you weren't up till 4am fighting like mad to get 18 pics uploaded to the Official Forza site, and mucked up and low res to boot, all needing to be fixed, and many of them just couldn't be. Or taking literally hours to sort through decals to put on one side of a car, and then on some cars, throwing in the towel because the vinyls just wouldn't work right on some of the surfaces. When I mention this, I'm labeled a hater or a troll or a GT fanboy by some. I guess Gran Turismo is the only game that can be criticized. On a GT forum no less.

You do go so far that GT5 racing is like Hanna Montana to you. But of course you still have to insist that it's you that has his eyes and brain plugged in, and the rest of us are sleepdriving or something. Since you just can't see it, I'll let this discussion die.

speaking of copying, I think PD is the one who really needs to copy a few things.

I'm with you there on a few points. Forza's Livery Editor and Storefront, as well as the Auction House, are fantastic. Other than that, I'm not impressed by too many racers, and I own several.