FF & Buttkicker?
- Thread starter Skymeat
- 40 comments
- 8,563 views
- 33,155
- Hammerhead Garage
Eric.
Premium
- 8,515
- GTP_Eric
- Ebiggs
That's the only reason I even came in here...if this section were busier there'd be all sorts of epic posts.
- 18
hahahahahahahahahahahahahhaahaahah...OH GOD I cant stop laughing!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- 782
- Bronx, NY
- DomSupra
- Dom Supra
Lol!!
- 816
- Albuquerque, NM
- jswilli1 / GTP_jswilli1 (GT5 only)
- jswilli1
The ButtKicker or any Tactile Transducer works off an Audio signal ( Amplitude/Low Frequency) or LFE/Subwoofer channel on an A/V receiver. I don't think tying it in to the FF circuit would do much good as the FF motor works off of a voltage to control the motor. The FF amplifier could not power the BK either since these require a huge amount of power to drive the transducer.
The ButtKicker is a popular device used by Sim drivers since it is a more affordable package. Some Sim Racers have created their own tactile transducers while others have used more high end Transducers such as the Clark Synthesis. See Stega's Mega Cockpit of Doom, and ProjectR.
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- 562
- Next to Kaz
- Joeminihulkster
HAAAAAAAA Buttlicker. What a funny error!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
- 816
- Albuquerque, NM
- jswilli1 / GTP_jswilli1 (GT5 only)
- jswilli1
Thanks for the Edit!
I was just thinking that you could feed it into a pre-amp then to the power amp to the buttkicker (double checking spelling).
It might be possible but I would be affraid there would be too much noise on the FF line and the BK would just vibrate erradically? Not sure though.
Can you use more than one buttkicker at a time ?
Could you have one hooked up to the right side of your driving seat with only the right side audio feed plugged into it and another buttkicker hooked to the left side of the seat with only the left audio feed and finaly a buttkick in the center of the seat hooked to a center channel ?
Could you have one hooked up to the right side of your driving seat with only the right side audio feed plugged into it and another buttkicker hooked to the left side of the seat with only the left audio feed and finaly a buttkick in the center of the seat hooked to a center channel ?
- 1,067
- No46_TheDoctor or SSRacingUK
Anyone get any further with this idea? I'm fed up with my seat shaking like a dog sh**ing peach pips every time I go over 60mph...... (from the wind noise)
- 1,011
- UK
- the_greeze
Perhaps you need to tweak the settings? I have unique settings for each game for my Buttkicker. NFS:Shift for example, needs way a lower setting than say, GT5. 
- 1,067
- No46_TheDoctor or SSRacingUK
Perhaps you need to tweak the settings? I have unique settings for each game for my Buttkicker. NFS:Shift for example, needs way a lower setting than say, GT5.
I've tweaked till I'm blue in the face, believe me !
If I hit the kerbs at anything up to 40mph they feel great, above that it's all wind and the kerbs don't register at all.
It maybe the limitations of my amplifier causing problems, but by my reckoning, if the wind noise is at the same frequency as the noise from hitting the kerbs then your going to feel both ?
Maybe in a months time all will be well ! Maybe PD have a setting in GT5 for people with ButtKickers (other LFE systems are available) that only sends bumps and impacts to the LFE channel, here's hoping !
- 1,011
- UK
- the_greeze
Hmm, I hope you're right mate! (and I obviously meant GT5: Prologue) 
What amp setup are you using?
(and I obviously meant GT5: Prologue) What amp setup are you using?
- 85
- Skymeat1
I did some more poking around...What really needs to happen I think is an inline connector that will divide the FF signals, so one set of signals passes through to the controller, the other to a signal generator (to convert the electrical impulse to sound) then to the amps to drive the buttkicker. That's going to take more know-how than I have, the biggest challenge is getting the FF signals, the rest would be cake though.
- 1,067
- No46_TheDoctor or SSRacingUK
I'm amazed a company such as Fanatec or Logitech doesn't come up with something like this, they are ideally placed to make such a device, something that fitted inline with the USB connector to the wheel which decoded the FFB signals and output them as a signal which could drive a Buttkicker (or similar) AMP, shame really.
Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,011
- N Ireland
Got a few surprises in store in what Ive been messing around with but this will be shown in due course with the cockpit Im still working at.
For me and my own objectives of what a cool cockpit could achieve are use of tactile bass, audible bass, comfort, lighting and be stylish. This way it becomes more of a arcade type experience than just a frame or combined seat and wheelstand.
As for the Fanatec wheels
Its not FFB but actual "Rumble motors" that shake in the wheel and the CSP brakes.
Still when you think about it guys what you want is something that produces an increased amplified signal dependent on the pedal movement for the gas, or brake or even both.
So technically you dont need fancy electronics in a wheel for this, trust me their are other ways to achieve it
This is an area Ive spent quite some time with and looking to use additional hardware to control ingame audio and utilise it further than just using a Buttkicker device.
Some things I found really give you more control and benifit for tactile/transducer bass units.
Graphic Equaliser
Allows you to alter a games audio effects (like wind noise). Enabling to some degree to increase/reduce certain set audible frequencies some games may have in their sound effects...
Subharmonic Bass Processor
These will allow you to enrichen and quite substantially increase the level and depth of bass response to the Buttkicker. Almost like doubling the wattage the bass has much more impact.
Multiple Combined Units
A single unit with excessive bass can have an annoyance factor. Its likely to bottom out as well if used with high volume settings. Multiple units with more controlled amplification provide a richer more full bodied result. Look at it like comparing a single headphone at high volume or stereo headphones with lower volume.
Subwoofer Audible Bass
Tactile bass is improved in its immersion when combined with the bass felt and heard from a good quality sub. They go hand in hand perfectly.
Still not reached my own goals in this area yet but have found in finally getting my dual Clarke Synthesis units (brought home by friend visiting New York) they offer a more sensative and varied effect immersion. These come across as more suitable for musical or vocal bass freqencies than Buttkickers are. They use a wider frequency band more effectively also. Buttkickers seem to offer more dynamic punch and whallop so Im playing around in using both but importantly having the control individually in their amplification and being processed differently. The end result is a distinctive difference in their sensations but to to give a combined effect with Buttkickers/Calrke Systhesis and actual subwoofers working like a choir.
For me and my own objectives of what a cool cockpit could achieve are use of tactile bass, audible bass, comfort, lighting and be stylish. This way it becomes more of a arcade type experience than just a frame or combined seat and wheelstand.
As for the Fanatec wheels
Its not FFB but actual "Rumble motors" that shake in the wheel and the CSP brakes.
Still when you think about it guys what you want is something that produces an increased amplified signal dependent on the pedal movement for the gas, or brake or even both.
So technically you dont need fancy electronics in a wheel for this, trust me their are other ways to achieve it
This is an area Ive spent quite some time with and looking to use additional hardware to control ingame audio and utilise it further than just using a Buttkicker device.
Some things I found really give you more control and benifit for tactile/transducer bass units.
Graphic Equaliser
Allows you to alter a games audio effects (like wind noise). Enabling to some degree to increase/reduce certain set audible frequencies some games may have in their sound effects...
Subharmonic Bass Processor
These will allow you to enrichen and quite substantially increase the level and depth of bass response to the Buttkicker. Almost like doubling the wattage the bass has much more impact.
Multiple Combined Units
A single unit with excessive bass can have an annoyance factor. Its likely to bottom out as well if used with high volume settings. Multiple units with more controlled amplification provide a richer more full bodied result. Look at it like comparing a single headphone at high volume or stereo headphones with lower volume.
Subwoofer Audible Bass
Tactile bass is improved in its immersion when combined with the bass felt and heard from a good quality sub. They go hand in hand perfectly.
Still not reached my own goals in this area yet but have found in finally getting my dual Clarke Synthesis units (brought home by friend visiting New York) they offer a more sensative and varied effect immersion. These come across as more suitable for musical or vocal bass freqencies than Buttkickers are. They use a wider frequency band more effectively also. Buttkickers seem to offer more dynamic punch and whallop so Im playing around in using both but importantly having the control individually in their amplification and being processed differently. The end result is a distinctive difference in their sensations but to to give a combined effect with Buttkickers/Calrke Systhesis and actual subwoofers working like a choir.
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- 1,067
- No46_TheDoctor or SSRacingUK
OK, so after an awfull lot of messing about I've hit a brick wall ! I even tried sending the Subwoofer signal through a seperate Amp to see if I could clean things up a bit, that was a mistake !
Anyway, is it possible to send the Subwoofer signal through a graphic equalizer that has XLR connections on it and then send this on to the Buttkicker Amp?
Something like this........
I'm afraid I know didley squat about graphic eq's
And this one seems to have a dedicated Sub Out, confusion reigns.....
Thanks in advance....
Anyway, is it possible to send the Subwoofer signal through a graphic equalizer that has XLR connections on it and then send this on to the Buttkicker Amp?
Something like this........
I'm afraid I know didley squat about graphic eq's
And this one seems to have a dedicated Sub Out, confusion reigns.....Thanks in advance....
Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,011
- N Ireland
OK, so after an awfull lot of messing about I've hit a brick wall ! I even tried sending the Subwoofer signal through a seperate Amp to see if I could clean things up a bit, that was a mistake !
Anyway, is it possible to send the Subwoofer signal through a graphic equalizer that has XLR connections on it and then send this on to the Buttkicker Amp?
Something like this........
I'm afraid I know didley squat about graphic eq's
Thanks in advance....
Game audio will have various frequencies.
Graphic EQs will have various sliders for differing frequencies.
The more sliders the EQ has the more control you will have of the audio
However they dont really give much control in very low bass freqencies
For bass control "Sub Harmonic" multipurpose Bass enchancement devices operate for the purpose of low end bass management.
Its going into PA and studio audio ends of equipment.
I use dual Behringer Ultrabass Pro Ex1200 (got both on ebay)
Ebay usually has one on from time to time as these are now disconituned.
Ive used a Technics graphic EQ with fancy display but may change to a Behringer EQ with more control in the future.
You can get leads to convert XLR or use Microphone - RCA
One issue is many Buttkicker or Tactile devices use 4 ohm amplification which isnt as common now.
- 1,067
- No46_TheDoctor or SSRacingUK
Been thinking about this some more, if the problem I have is that the wind makes the thing rumble but kerbs above 50mph or so don't, am I right in saying that a graphic EQ will only let be get rid of the wind noise, and since the hish speed kerb noise sin't coming out of the Sub Out in the first place, the EQ won't do any good?
The funny thing is, I can hear the kerbs really well from both my front and rear speakers, it's very pronounced, it must be just at too high a frequency to be sent through the Sub Output.
I tried sending the Rear speakers into the High Level Input on my LFE Amp, but unless I have the Master Volume up at about 60-70 I get negligable results.
I did try and fit some variable resistors to the rest of the speakers so I could have the volume up at that height without my ears bleeding, but then the dreaded wind noise is still there !
Ideally, what I need is some way of feeding the front and rear speakers through a Graphic Equaliser then to the Sub/ButtKicker/EarthQuake device, but I'm thinking that would require a 4 channel Equaliser?
I am going to wait and see what whay the whole thing works with GT5 before I start spending alot of money !
The annoying thing is that with Ferrari Challenge it was awesome, the gear shifts on some of the cars gave a really nice thump, and the kerbs were a delight to drive over at any speed, here's hoping I guess !
The funny thing is, I can hear the kerbs really well from both my front and rear speakers, it's very pronounced, it must be just at too high a frequency to be sent through the Sub Output.
I tried sending the Rear speakers into the High Level Input on my LFE Amp, but unless I have the Master Volume up at about 60-70 I get negligable results.
I did try and fit some variable resistors to the rest of the speakers so I could have the volume up at that height without my ears bleeding, but then the dreaded wind noise is still there !
Ideally, what I need is some way of feeding the front and rear speakers through a Graphic Equaliser then to the Sub/ButtKicker/EarthQuake device, but I'm thinking that would require a 4 channel Equaliser?
I am going to wait and see what whay the whole thing works with GT5 before I start spending alot of money !
The annoying thing is that with Ferrari Challenge it was awesome, the gear shifts on some of the cars gave a really nice thump, and the kerbs were a delight to drive over at any speed, here's hoping I guess !
Mr Latte
Premium
- 5,011
- N Ireland
It is all a bit of a headache as their are many factors and this gets a bit technical.
Using EQ is a bit of an issue too as it can require PRE OUTS from a 5.1 Amplifer going to seperate amplification with the EQUALISER in between for L/R audio control to alter your wind noise etc.
Factors:
Various games outputs differ.
Various viewpoints in games differ in audio strength of effects
Various amplifers will have differences in LFE control and output
Various amplifers have differing DSP and surround modes which effect LFE
Various Buttkicker devices will have differing performances
Various additional equipment and amplification needed to have more control
Leave out the EQ for now and concentrate on beefing your mid-low range audio. This way you can have it in a sense louder or balanced to drown out the wind noise.
If a kerb in a game doesnt make much low end bass noise (as some dont) then yes a Buttkicker will get little effect via the LFE. I understand your problem here. However normal speakers as you comment have a decent audible bass sound from them. So you can indeed cover both options as I have previously tested. One way is as mentioned is using good audible bass in car audio subwoofers to enchance the bass as a sub speaker has a much wider range than a Buttkicker. I think this would instantly help your issue when increasing volume to benifit the LFE the wind noise becomes unbarable. Trust me add at least one 12" sub with a 4ohm amplifer and it will be a big benifit when used with a Buttkicker.
Another trick is to to take audio from the centre channel or left/right. Using a 2nd 5.1 decoding amplifer or even stereo amplifer with optical input. You can do this combined with the PS3 multi audio output. Turn it on in system menus.
Now you could have 2x 5.1 amplifers, 1x HDMI 1x Optical.
"System A" doing the normal speaker thing and a LFE going to a Buttkicker(s) and subwoofer(s). You may also have Sub Harmonic in between the LFE output and Buttkicker(s) and if like me a seperate one for subwoofer(s) for individual control of each as mentioned above for more enchancement or control.
"System B"
Using normal game audio output of L/R or Centre channel to either a Buttkicker or subwoofer for bass enchancement. Just like a stereo system with a sub in between the speakers. This will give a good beefing of general game audio bass not the LFE effects.
I think though a Clarke Tactile unit will act better here than a Buttkicker with their more varied performance although as recently only got mine I will have to test this.
Just some of the components Im using with my journey and experimentation...
Using EQ is a bit of an issue too as it can require PRE OUTS from a 5.1 Amplifer going to seperate amplification with the EQUALISER in between for L/R audio control to alter your wind noise etc.
Factors:
Various games outputs differ.
Various viewpoints in games differ in audio strength of effects
Various amplifers will have differences in LFE control and output
Various amplifers have differing DSP and surround modes which effect LFE
Various Buttkicker devices will have differing performances
Various additional equipment and amplification needed to have more control
Leave out the EQ for now and concentrate on beefing your mid-low range audio. This way you can have it in a sense louder or balanced to drown out the wind noise.
If a kerb in a game doesnt make much low end bass noise (as some dont) then yes a Buttkicker will get little effect via the LFE. I understand your problem here. However normal speakers as you comment have a decent audible bass sound from them. So you can indeed cover both options as I have previously tested. One way is as mentioned is using good audible bass in car audio subwoofers to enchance the bass as a sub speaker has a much wider range than a Buttkicker. I think this would instantly help your issue when increasing volume to benifit the LFE the wind noise becomes unbarable. Trust me add at least one 12" sub with a 4ohm amplifer and it will be a big benifit when used with a Buttkicker.
Another trick is to to take audio from the centre channel or left/right. Using a 2nd 5.1 decoding amplifer or even stereo amplifer with optical input. You can do this combined with the PS3 multi audio output. Turn it on in system menus.
Now you could have 2x 5.1 amplifers, 1x HDMI 1x Optical.
"System A" doing the normal speaker thing and a LFE going to a Buttkicker(s) and subwoofer(s). You may also have Sub Harmonic in between the LFE output and Buttkicker(s) and if like me a seperate one for subwoofer(s) for individual control of each as mentioned above for more enchancement or control.
"System B"
Using normal game audio output of L/R or Centre channel to either a Buttkicker or subwoofer for bass enchancement. Just like a stereo system with a sub in between the speakers. This will give a good beefing of general game audio bass not the LFE effects.
I think though a Clarke Tactile unit will act better here than a Buttkicker with their more varied performance although as recently only got mine I will have to test this.
Just some of the components Im using with my journey and experimentation...
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- 1,011
- UK
- the_greeze
Whoa, Mr Latte; that's some serious kit! 👍
I'm thinking about re-positioning my Buttkicker now. It's currently located under the seat but connected to the whole frame on the cockpit. I was wondering if I'd have better results with it solely connected to the actual seat and isolated from the framework?
It can be a bit violent sometimes and I was hoping that some isolation may help, particularly as I have a second Buttkicker coming soon (for use at the front; under the floorboard where the pedals are.)
Any thoughts Gents? I guess I could use a couple of strips of thin rubber between the frame and the seat side-mounts for isolation.
I'm thinking about re-positioning my Buttkicker now. It's currently located under the seat but connected to the whole frame on the cockpit. I was wondering if I'd have better results with it solely connected to the actual seat and isolated from the framework?
It can be a bit violent sometimes and I was hoping that some isolation may help, particularly as I have a second Buttkicker coming soon (for use at the front; under the floorboard where the pedals are.)
Any thoughts Gents? I guess I could use a couple of strips of thin rubber between the frame and the seat side-mounts for isolation.
