- 4,803
- Dearborn, MI
- MotorCtyHamilton
Suspension Theroies R-Us
- Thread starter IamWSPro
- 138 comments
- 10,284 views
Jack Napier
(Banned)
- 120
- United States
ABS stabalizes the car during braking on top of making wheel angle tuning fubarred in tge process. Taking ABS off the cars need more refinned tuning.
I just put a GT350 together for my own comparison to the FiTT cars. ABS off im a second faster then the GT350 from the comp at laguna running low 1:40 but ABS on it drops to low 1:39's, cheesy.
It 100% effects the handling as wheel angles to aid braking / keep from skidding are no longer as usefull if at all and they play a HUGE role in handling dynamics.
When tuning we are always working with compromises, strait live vs cornering, braking vs accelerating ect, ABS removes a entire aspect to consider when tuning, yeah it makes a difference...
Fact o matter ABS in GT is an assist, if your "Tuning" the car how can you rely on assist? Just because the ABS crutch is common place round here dont change the fact using ABS in GT is the same as using any form of "braking assis" in any other game, or TCS SFR ASM, even steering assist IMO
That crap aint allowed on the Track in our current day n age unless we talking about celebs showing off the toys they can afford but not appreciate...
Point is if you rely on the game to do part of the driving for you, your not really IMO tuning the car right, you tuning it to drive well with assist.
I just put a GT350 together for my own comparison to the FiTT cars. ABS off im a second faster then the GT350 from the comp at laguna running low 1:40 but ABS on it drops to low 1:39's, cheesy.
It 100% effects the handling as wheel angles to aid braking / keep from skidding are no longer as usefull if at all and they play a HUGE role in handling dynamics.
When tuning we are always working with compromises, strait live vs cornering, braking vs accelerating ect, ABS removes a entire aspect to consider when tuning, yeah it makes a difference...
Fact o matter ABS in GT is an assist, if your "Tuning" the car how can you rely on assist? Just because the ABS crutch is common place round here dont change the fact using ABS in GT is the same as using any form of "braking assis" in any other game, or TCS SFR ASM, even steering assist IMO
That crap aint allowed on the Track in our current day n age unless we talking about celebs showing off the toys they can afford but not appreciate...
Point is if you rely on the game to do part of the driving for you, your not really IMO tuning the car right, you tuning it to drive well with assist.
- 11,660
- GTP_Orido
Most of tuners here tunes for ABS 1, as most GT6 players at least uses ABS 1, so that's kind of the popular way. I am using stick, so my tune/replicas are different than ABS 1 made tune/replica. I really wanted to see someone with a wheel + no aids opening tuning garage here, curious what sort of differences in tuning approach and result between stick and wheel when no aids used.
I guess I am one of the very few tuner/driver with a garage here that do not use any aids, feels lonely and like a stranger
Which is also one of the reason I stopped being a tester and tuner at tuning shootouts long time ago ( GT5 )
@Jack Napier : Do you use ABS when tuning/driving ?
I guess I am one of the very few tuner/driver with a garage here that do not use any aids, feels lonely and like a stranger
Which is also one of the reason I stopped being a tester and tuner at tuning shootouts long time ago ( GT5 )@Jack Napier : Do you use ABS when tuning/driving ?
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- 757
- Paris
- BlueShift
What are min and max settings of your standard FITT chalenge car ?
I'll buy it tonigth so I can compare.
- 156
- United Kingdom
While those things would have an effect it wouldn't change the pattern seen - but at the end of the day it's just a toy and probably not very useful. I just get a bit carried away lol.
Sorry I can't help with the units as I have the UK version. What I can tell you is that the Imperial unit of spring stiffness is lbf/inches and you convert between the two like this:
1 lbf/inch = 0.017858 kgf/mm
Is that helpful?
- 757
- Paris
- BlueShift
Yup, but since MCH said springs were in kgf/mm... The RH are told to be in inches, I'm investigating into this.
For the gearboxes, I may have a problem but I think I'll got something soon, maybe tonigth or sooner I will put the alpha version of this on this forum.
The article I linked gave a lot of equations aswell, I will try to put this aswell. SQAT is the name, so I should try to describe "spring hysteresis" at least
Now I need to figure out how to technically draw a graph in C#
- 4,803
- Dearborn, MI
- MotorCtyHamilton
- 757
- Paris
- BlueShift
Jack Napier
(Banned)
- 120
- United States
Yup no aids at all , I don't even use the driving line.
I put up a Ruf YB vid showing how I drive.
I get that ABS 1 is the norm, but that fact is a little lame as people act like they are assist free drivers while using ABS and that's BS
I put up a Ruf YB vid showing how I drive.
I get that ABS 1 is the norm, but that fact is a little lame as people act like they are assist free drivers while using ABS and that's BS
- 240
- Kansas
- nofxmike06
- nofxmike06
*bows* I'm not worthy.
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Jack Napier
(Banned)
- 120
- United States
Not on the track in a Race, that stuff gets dissablled OR has its own shut off button for real drivers on the Track.
Enter the world of potholes gravel dirt patches, broken glass, mix debry, trash n the list goes on all while being surrounded by thousands of drivers with varying levels of ability and skill not just racing car drivers at a race car driving level, then weather comes in etc etc etc things change.
TorqueWrench
(Banned)
- 210
- United States
- tqwrench21
Didn't want to make a new thread so an old one gets bumped
Bushings
Flexing and changing dynamic wheel angles due to flex in bushings or links etc.
We all know in real life this depends on suspension design, geometry, bushing design & material. Upgrades for road and track use are availible, but all that aside what's the deal with them in GT6.
In GT it fells to me like we have solid bushings and no flexing in the links. It feels like aside from chassis flex the wheel angles hold true.
Bushings
Flexing and changing dynamic wheel angles due to flex in bushings or links etc.
We all know in real life this depends on suspension design, geometry, bushing design & material. Upgrades for road and track use are availible, but all that aside what's the deal with them in GT6.
In GT it fells to me like we have solid bushings and no flexing in the links. It feels like aside from chassis flex the wheel angles hold true.
- 3,998
- New Jersey
- crash27wwjd
That's because it's virtual and not reality, they did not simulate flex.
TorqueWrench
(Banned)
- 210
- United States
- tqwrench21
I understand this. In order to understand the suspension what is and is not simulated is important. I believe GT bushings are solid, there is no flex, or in other words flex in the bushings and links is not simulated.
Further points I intend to make rely on an understanding of what is, and how are certaind aspects simulated. The differences from real to GT of primary concern.
- 14
- United States
- VI__WARGOD
how do suspension works for drag racing?
TorqueWrench
(Banned)
- 210
- United States
- tqwrench21
Suspension real vs GT differences
I noticed that raising and lowering ride height has no effect on shock stroke. If the car is lowered the ext stroke remains the same and the wheels will ext the same amount, this can be seen when making a jump, the lower the ride height the less drop the wheels will have when air born. If you raise the ride height the wheels drop lower. The compression stroke only gets reduced when the body is dropped so low there is not enough shock travel for the shock to fully compress. The travel is 2/part, first how much travel the shock uses, and second is the body travel limits limiting the shock travel required.
This would suggest the body is simply being lowered and raised when ride height is adjusted and the suspension remains fixed. In real life raising ride height increases comp stroke at the cost of ext stroke, while lowering ride height cost comp stroke to the gain of ext stroke. In GT we only need to consider body travel limits, we don't have to think about ride height adjustments affect on comp and ext stroke as we would in a real car.
I also notice all cars seem to have similar geometry. While some cars have more or less overall wheel travel distance than others (seen in data logger) they all have the same amount of camber gain inside the range of travel. No matter what kind of suspension the car is supposed to have, all cars appear to have this same geometry, no live axles, no double wishbone or trailing arms, all cars have a simple fully independent suspension, with the same camber gain.. There is definitely a variation in spring rate to wheel ratio, but it appears to be nothing more than an amount of "leverage" calculated.
Body travel
While greatly improved over GT5, the body roll and pitch is very basic. Where in real life there is increased angle and more pivot at the limit. In GT pitch appears to have a small level of pivot the roll does not. If put in an extreme situation like bouncing off a curb, there is no real pivot on roll, and as soon as an active force lifts a tire off the road, the other side digs in like a anchor and sends the car rolling. It appears as if rolling over onto the tire side wall is the limit of the simulations abilities. This makes tuning cornering performance frustrating, the suspension is too "perfect" and the tires only well simulated inside a window that falls under the limits.
I noticed that raising and lowering ride height has no effect on shock stroke. If the car is lowered the ext stroke remains the same and the wheels will ext the same amount, this can be seen when making a jump, the lower the ride height the less drop the wheels will have when air born. If you raise the ride height the wheels drop lower. The compression stroke only gets reduced when the body is dropped so low there is not enough shock travel for the shock to fully compress. The travel is 2/part, first how much travel the shock uses, and second is the body travel limits limiting the shock travel required.
This would suggest the body is simply being lowered and raised when ride height is adjusted and the suspension remains fixed. In real life raising ride height increases comp stroke at the cost of ext stroke, while lowering ride height cost comp stroke to the gain of ext stroke. In GT we only need to consider body travel limits, we don't have to think about ride height adjustments affect on comp and ext stroke as we would in a real car.
I also notice all cars seem to have similar geometry. While some cars have more or less overall wheel travel distance than others (seen in data logger) they all have the same amount of camber gain inside the range of travel. No matter what kind of suspension the car is supposed to have, all cars appear to have this same geometry, no live axles, no double wishbone or trailing arms, all cars have a simple fully independent suspension, with the same camber gain.. There is definitely a variation in spring rate to wheel ratio, but it appears to be nothing more than an amount of "leverage" calculated.
Body travel
While greatly improved over GT5, the body roll and pitch is very basic. Where in real life there is increased angle and more pivot at the limit. In GT pitch appears to have a small level of pivot the roll does not. If put in an extreme situation like bouncing off a curb, there is no real pivot on roll, and as soon as an active force lifts a tire off the road, the other side digs in like a anchor and sends the car rolling. It appears as if rolling over onto the tire side wall is the limit of the simulations abilities. This makes tuning cornering performance frustrating, the suspension is too "perfect" and the tires only well simulated inside a window that falls under the limits.
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- 14
- United States
- VI__WARGOD
I need to know bout dampers/ext and dampers/compression and anti roll bars
TorqueWrench
(Banned)
- 210
- United States
- tqwrench21
Dampers are simple in design but because they can be used in so many different ways setting them up can be complicated. There are a few different ways to set them up, so it will depend on who you ask and tuning methods they use, as well as what your tuning goal is will vary methods.
