V10 or V12?
- Thread starter SL4sh
- 34 comments
- 47,822 views
- 8,642
- London
- GTP_Stotty
IIRC, a V12 is inherently better balanced than a V10. A V12 would generally be heavier.
Otherwise there should be little potential difference... no reason why V12 or V10 of the same capacity couldn't produce the same power and torque.
Otherwise there should be little potential difference... no reason why V12 or V10 of the same capacity couldn't produce the same power and torque.
- 3,987
- Gaithersburg/MD
- landseaair
Off the top of my head a V-12 has perfect balancing regardless of V angle which means no balance shafts needed for smooth running, this also means parts can me made significantly lighter because the crank doesn't have counterweights and the flywheel has less work to do (or undo as the case may be)
According to wikipedia the main advantages of a V-10 are cases when a V-8 would not provide enough power and a V-12 engine would be too large/expensive/complex. V-10s have first and second order vibrations and require the use of balance shafts and/or uneven firing orders
hope this helps
According to wikipedia the main advantages of a V-10 are cases when a V-8 would not provide enough power and a V-12 engine would be too large/expensive/complex. V-10s have first and second order vibrations and require the use of balance shafts and/or uneven firing orders
hope this helps
- 23,444
- It/It
- GTP_TheCracker
A V10 is obviously going to be 2 cylinders shorter too, which helps with engine bay packaging.
- 10,620
- gtp_jimprower
More or less correct: a V12 is the same as Two Inline Sixes connected at the crank. Thus, it is perfectly harmonically balanced, and does not require a balance shaft
A V10 (Popularized among European and Japanese manufacturers by old Formula 1 regulations...also used in Ford and Dodge Pickups and the Dodge Viper,) is NOT harmonically balanced, and requires balance shafts for smoothness. It tends to sound and drive like a pair of inline fives, which is essentially what it is...except in the case of an American engine, which is a slightly re-worked V8.
A V10 (Popularized among European and Japanese manufacturers by old Formula 1 regulations...also used in Ford and Dodge Pickups and the Dodge Viper,) is NOT harmonically balanced, and requires balance shafts for smoothness. It tends to sound and drive like a pair of inline fives, which is essentially what it is...except in the case of an American engine, which is a slightly re-worked V8.
- 303
- orlando/fl/usa
- devildogg666
- 21,286
- GR-MI-USA
- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
Well, for those of us who hug our John Deere tractors every night, the V10 sound can be pleasurable. Otherwise, I've yet to come up with a significant advantage over a V12 design outside of the complexity issue. Given all of that, I'm still a V8 guy.
- 20,145
- Australia
- VIPERGTS01
Despite the fantastic smoothness and balance of the V12 (V angle does matter, 60degree is optimum without split crank journals/pins) the V12 will generally have more pumping losses (depending on type and size) and more friction losses.
A V10 maybe shorter but generally will be wider due to the 72 degree optimum V angle compared to the 60 degrees of the V12.
A V10 maybe shorter but generally will be wider due to the 72 degree optimum V angle compared to the 60 degrees of the V12.
Last edited:
- 23,800
- Philippines
If the capacity is the same, there will be very little difference in weight, though, yes, a V10 will be easier to package.
But there are many advantages to a V12 if you have the space for it... smaller pistons for the displacement, which should, theoretically, allow more revs (there's a reason F1 stuck with V12s until regulations forced them to size down to V10s... then V8s)... and you'll have more combustion events per revolution, which should produce smoother power and response down low in the rev range.
But there are many advantages to a V12 if you have the space for it... smaller pistons for the displacement, which should, theoretically, allow more revs (there's a reason F1 stuck with V12s until regulations forced them to size down to V10s... then V8s)... and you'll have more combustion events per revolution, which should produce smoother power and response down low in the rev range.
- 3,704
What about W10's and W12's? Same question though; advantages and disadvantages?
Leonidae
(Banned)
- 6,881
- GTP_Leonidae_MFT
I don't think that there is a W10 yet as VAG V10 uses Lambo block.. however, W12.. if I'm not wrong, it's just 2 VR6's sharing a crankshaft. it might actually be slightly longer than regular V12. But it's also narrower.
buuut, my choice would be V12. V10 can never match the finesse, traditions and legends accompanied with V12.
- 21,286
- GR-MI-USA
- YSSMAN
- YSSMAN
As far as I know, the only "W" design engines go to the VR5, VR6 and the obvious W8 and W16 applications. I'm not aware of a "W10" engine that has ever been produced by VAG. As far as I can tell, there isn't any significant advantage to the design other than VAG saying "Hey! Look how weird this is! Isn't it cool? YEAH!"
- 3,987
- Gaithersburg/MD
- landseaair
- 20,145
- Australia
- VIPERGTS01
90 degree V10's would have a uneven firing or they would have to use a shared split journal/crank pin of a 18 degree split/offset for even smooth firing. 72 degrees is optimum, I would bet most are 72 degrees or very close (V12's are mostly 60).
W12's are almost as smooth as V12 (very close, no balancers or anything required) but the real difference is as mentioned they're are shorter, but wider.)
- 3,987
- Gaithersburg/MD
- landseaair
- 20,145
- Australia
- VIPERGTS01
Yeah I just did some googling and it turns out the Viper V10 is 90 degrees without a crank pin offset meaning it is a odd fire engine. Probably the reason it sounds strange and many people don't like the sound.
The Ford V10 is also 90 degrees but it has split crank pins (18 degree split) which makes it a even fire and probably sounds better with a better exhaust.
I wonder why 90 degrees is so popular for V10's when 72 is optimum and narrower, probably in many cases engine design is based off a V8 (which has 90 degree optimum V angle).
- 3,987
- Gaithersburg/MD
- landseaair
- 23,800
- Philippines
Same number of camshafts, just 2 more pistons, 8 more valves. But, possibly, less stress per piston for the same power, and no need for balancer shafts (which are two more major moving parts) If we were talking V12 versus I6... then, possibly, that could be a complaint.
Big pistons can still have a short stroke. What's important is that there's very little reciprocating mass per cylinder in a V12 versus a V10 or V8 of the same capacity... but probably more important is that you can have a bigger engine with a V12 without having to resort to awfully huge pistons.
The biggest advantage for me, still, is the sound. V10s sound raspy and angry... which is nice, but none of them have that sweet creamy music that comes out of the tailpipes of a V12... and they aren't as burbly as a V8. (call me odd, but beside a new M3, the M5 just sounds monotonic dull.) The worst of both worlds, so to speak. Aside from the Viper, the only reason we're seeing V10s in sportscars at the moment is that for one, brief moment, the FIA declared that F1 cars all be V10s... thus the marketing war to bring them to production... just to forge an imaginary link between these road cars and F1s.
Too bad nobody did that with the turbo 1.5s... just imagine... driving a Honda Civic or BMW 3-series with a 300 horsepower 1.5 liter engine... if only, if only...
Too late for us... those 1.5 turbos are coming, but they're all going to be diesels... rats.
- 9,089
- Scotland
- 5,481
- Seattle, WA
- RykonZero
You can tweak a block you know.
- 9,089
- Scotland
