- 2,080
nice new pair of cars............i like the Red-Baron-Story *gg*
viper
viper
Mad FinnTuners Co. - Finished 301010 with GT-Rdammerung - BIG THANKS everyone!
- Thread starter Greycap
- 3,787 comments
- 542,028 views
- Status
- 152
TRD Starlet Glanza V
I was browsing through the MFT tunes list one day, and I spotted this little one hidden away in a corner, forgotten by all. In the day, my girlfriend had one of those. Albeit not the tuned version, just the regular cooking model Starlet with sheepskin seat covers and badly faded red paint.
I fondly remembered that car, how I hated it with a passion, but still held admiration for it. It handled horribly, with 10 year old suspension, shocking, hard tyres and no steering feel. It was a small car, so my head always hit the roof as I drove it, and the steering wheel was not height adjustable so it always hit my legs. A generally lifeless, boring econobox.
I remember the car fondly, however, because it took a caning like no other and never missed a beat. It pulled awesome handbrake turns too. Loved the limiter.
But I digress, as I am getting off track here. I figured I would see what the other end of the scale was like. Quite frankly, I was not expecting much. I knew that the geniuses at MFT could only do so much to a vehicle.
However I was wrong. Very wrong. The second I stepped into the little Starlet I knew it was different. Truth be known, it felt like a completely different car.
Hot hatches such as this should go around corners well. This one does that, exceptionally well, if you are gentle with the throttle. Otherwise you just plow straight ahead into the wall. However, this is a trait to be expected, as it is a powerful FWD car.
The brakes in this car are fantastic. No better than fantastic. The brakes in this car pull faces off. No doubt. One emergency stop in this baby and you will be picking eyeballs of the inside of the windscreen. In fact, I fear if the brakes on this car were any better, the car would just do a bit of a somersault and end up on its roof. The brakes are perfect.
This Starlet is best suited to short, technical tracks however. While it has quite a bit of poke along the straighter sections of road, the gearing is too short and the engine not torquey enough to provide huge top speeds. The gearing is well suited to rapid acceleration, however the persistent wheel spin in second gear made accelerating out of slow speed corners a tricky task.
Some have nothing but praise for Toyotas. Some say that Toyota are over engineering tomorrows products, today. Others say that all Toyotas are bland lifeless driving cars that are only driven by old ladies. But no matter which of the above you believe in, only one fact remains.
This isn't a Toyota. Its mental.
I was browsing through the MFT tunes list one day, and I spotted this little one hidden away in a corner, forgotten by all. In the day, my girlfriend had one of those. Albeit not the tuned version, just the regular cooking model Starlet with sheepskin seat covers and badly faded red paint.
I fondly remembered that car, how I hated it with a passion, but still held admiration for it. It handled horribly, with 10 year old suspension, shocking, hard tyres and no steering feel. It was a small car, so my head always hit the roof as I drove it, and the steering wheel was not height adjustable so it always hit my legs. A generally lifeless, boring econobox.
I remember the car fondly, however, because it took a caning like no other and never missed a beat. It pulled awesome handbrake turns too. Loved the limiter.
But I digress, as I am getting off track here. I figured I would see what the other end of the scale was like. Quite frankly, I was not expecting much. I knew that the geniuses at MFT could only do so much to a vehicle.
However I was wrong. Very wrong. The second I stepped into the little Starlet I knew it was different. Truth be known, it felt like a completely different car.
Hot hatches such as this should go around corners well. This one does that, exceptionally well, if you are gentle with the throttle. Otherwise you just plow straight ahead into the wall. However, this is a trait to be expected, as it is a powerful FWD car.
The brakes in this car are fantastic. No better than fantastic. The brakes in this car pull faces off. No doubt. One emergency stop in this baby and you will be picking eyeballs of the inside of the windscreen. In fact, I fear if the brakes on this car were any better, the car would just do a bit of a somersault and end up on its roof. The brakes are perfect.
This Starlet is best suited to short, technical tracks however. While it has quite a bit of poke along the straighter sections of road, the gearing is too short and the engine not torquey enough to provide huge top speeds. The gearing is well suited to rapid acceleration, however the persistent wheel spin in second gear made accelerating out of slow speed corners a tricky task.
Some have nothing but praise for Toyotas. Some say that Toyota are over engineering tomorrows products, today. Others say that all Toyotas are bland lifeless driving cars that are only driven by old ladies. But no matter which of the above you believe in, only one fact remains.
This isn't a Toyota. Its mental.
- 27
- 5,915
- Finland
spauldj3800, I have to say I'm impressed not only by your review, but the fact that you managed to like that car! It was highly likely one of those from which I expected a lot more but it's indeed one of my least favourite models here, yet one of those that are praised. I don't know why but it never impressed me even though the performance is quite well in line with the specs. It seems FWD just isn't my thing but it's good to hear that it suits others! 👍
If there's need for anything, give me a call. I may not be able to reach the level of your Ginetta again but I'll do my best.
If there's need for anything, give me a call. I may not be able to reach the level of your Ginetta again but I'll do my best.
- 57
- hoquiam,wa usa
- frkzdply
hey every one we have internet again
- 5,915
- Finland
Lotus Esprit Turbo HC Type 49 '87
457 bhp, 550 Nm, 1008 kg
Clickable for full size
457 bhp, 550 Nm, 1008 kg
Clickable for full size
Parts to fit:
Racing Exhaust
Racing Brakes
Brake Balance Controller
Turbo Kit Stage 3
Racing Intercooler
Port Polishing
Engine Balancing
Racing Chip
FC Transmission
Triple-plate Clutch
Racing Flywheel
FC LSD
FC Suspension
S3 Tyres
Weight Reduction Stage 3
Oil Change
Rear Wing
New Wheels (optional)
Suspension
Spring Rate: 6.0 / 8.0
Ride Height: 105 / 115
Bound: 5 / 6
Rebound: 10 / 6
Camber: 2.0 / 1.5
Toe: 0 / -2
Stabilizers: 3 / 5
Brake Controller
Brakes: 5 / 6
Transmission
Note: First, reset the gearbox to the default settings, then set the Auto setting, and only then set the gear ratios.
Gear Ratios
1st: 2.817
2nd: 1.895
3rd: 1.478
4th: 1.197
5th: 0.960
Final Gear: 3.500
Autoset 10
LSD
Initial: 10
Acceleration: 25
Deceleration: 5
Downforce
Amount: 25 / 30
Driving Aids
ASM Oversteer: 0
ASM Understeer: 0
TCS: 0
Seeing that there's such a thing as an Elise Type 72 to honour the great Lotus 72 F1 car there's definitely a need for another tribute. The tribute to the greatest British F1 driver ever and his car. The victorious Lotus 49 was the perfect combination of the brilliant ideas of Colin Chapman, the unrivalled driving skills of Jim Clark and the excellent engine design of the Cosworth workshop. That combination is something we've tried to approach here, making the old school Esprit handle more like a racer while still retaining the magic of mr. Chapman. Gone is the occasionally uncontrollable tail-happiness, in place of it is predictable handling suited to fast driving. Gone is also the reasonably lifeless engine, replaced by a fire breathing powerhouse ready to rip the rear tyres in shreds. Say goodbye to the original Turbo HC, welcome the Type 49.
Reviews:
by Codename L
by DuoMaxwell
Last edited:
- 2,080
wow, stunning car! great choice 👍
viper
viper
- 27
Yep. Now if someone else would notice too...
When i played the sega megadrive (or Genesis), i really liked this game, Lotus blabla challenge if i recall. And one of the beasts was this Esprit. So i can assure you i will do a review of this car as soon as i find time, because it will surely remind me of those old times.
So don't worry. Well, if you want a review reaaaaaaally soon, well, i'm sure we can do something about it. For example, if you succeed in making Leonidae send me the setups of the cars i asked him, i'm sure you will have a review in the next hours following the sending of the setups.
(Joking of course. I won't fall in Leonidae's trap, which is to make me wait as horribly as he can, in order to make me his slave).
Leonidae
(Banned)
- 6,881
- GTP_Leonidae_MFT
Bugger. you saw through my plot. Anyway, the AC Cobra is going through final stages of testing. I'm running it on dofferent powerlevels in order to see what kind of power the setup can handle. it's crazy as bat, but not quite as crazy as the Shelby sibling..
- 2,741
- Michigan
- mcluvin93hatch
Well, despite now living the college-life some 500 miles from home, I manage to find some free time this weekend and decided to review two cars for you guys
AMG 190E 2.5 Evo III '91
First off, Id just like to point something out
Give the car dark black rims, and it looks like something Darth Vader would drive
Anyways, back on topic, I built the car and went to Trail Mountain for the test, headed out on the track and hit the first straight-away, and to be honest, I wasnt impressed, a large Merc like this, which usually means power, I was expecting a good kick into the seat, but never got it, it just sorta got through them and went onward, but then I hit a couple of turns, and things changed. The car handled very precisely, going where I pointed it without any hesitation or slippage, went through the left-right chicane combo after the start/finish line, and was really surprised.
The car followed my steering input so precisely, It felt like a K-Car, no under-steer, no rolling around, nothing, like it was riding on rails, despite its size (and weight, but thats not as impressive as making a large car handle like a small one)
Things got real fun when I hit the tunnel though, from about the middle of the track, I turned-in to the left, the car followed again, but this time, (what I think was due to the sharpness of the corner), the rear end slides out and I enter a good power-drift, spinning the tires and keeping angle all the way through the tunnel, then I leave it and head over the hill, switch around on the downside, and weight-transfer the drift right into the next corner, on Sport tires no less !
After a few more laps, I had the car figured out, on the straights, it gets by, but in the corners, it grips like a mother and slings right through them, grabbing the entrance, sliding a little through the middle, and sling-shoting out of the exits, seeing a small car do that, is normal, but seeing a big black sedan do so, is more impressive, about a 8.4/10
BMW M Coupe "Red Baron"'98
So, a car worthy of the Red Barron ?
Maybe.
I built the car and went to Apricot hill for the test, started out on the track and before I even hit the main straight, I fould a flaw with the car that the Barron himself wouldnt like.
I came up the hill leading to the left turn that leads to the main straight, turned, and got very little movement, turned some more, got a little bit more, turned the wheel a lot farther than I usually have to in most cars, a good 25 degrees, and finally the front tires respond with grip, obviously very sluggish
The car has a front traction/steering/weight-distribution issue to a noticeable degree, now I dont know if the car has a different steering ratio or anything, but one thing I notice is that the car is half cabin , and half 5ft long hood. Now with the rear cabin being the light end, where weight is needed sometimes, and the hood covering a good, strong engine, means most of the weight is probably there, so maybe the issue starts with a form of under-steer, due to so much weight being in the front
Now some down-force might be able fix that, but even then the front-end weight would still be a problem on turn-in and corner exit on sharper corners, where demands of the front tires can get pretty hectic and your not traveling fast enough for down-force to kick in
But as it is now, I dont think the Red Barron would like it, its not responsive enough like what his aero-craft was, its front heavy, has no momentum in the back, lacks traction all around, more so in the front, but it could be much better I think if it were to be re-vised, 6.9/10
AMG 190E 2.5 Evo III '91
First off, Id just like to point something out
Give the car dark black rims, and it looks like something Darth Vader would drive
Anyways, back on topic, I built the car and went to Trail Mountain for the test, headed out on the track and hit the first straight-away, and to be honest, I wasnt impressed, a large Merc like this, which usually means power, I was expecting a good kick into the seat, but never got it, it just sorta got through them and went onward, but then I hit a couple of turns, and things changed. The car handled very precisely, going where I pointed it without any hesitation or slippage, went through the left-right chicane combo after the start/finish line, and was really surprised.
The car followed my steering input so precisely, It felt like a K-Car, no under-steer, no rolling around, nothing, like it was riding on rails, despite its size (and weight, but thats not as impressive as making a large car handle like a small one)
Things got real fun when I hit the tunnel though, from about the middle of the track, I turned-in to the left, the car followed again, but this time, (what I think was due to the sharpness of the corner), the rear end slides out and I enter a good power-drift, spinning the tires and keeping angle all the way through the tunnel, then I leave it and head over the hill, switch around on the downside, and weight-transfer the drift right into the next corner, on Sport tires no less !
After a few more laps, I had the car figured out, on the straights, it gets by, but in the corners, it grips like a mother and slings right through them, grabbing the entrance, sliding a little through the middle, and sling-shoting out of the exits, seeing a small car do that, is normal, but seeing a big black sedan do so, is more impressive, about a 8.4/10
BMW M Coupe "Red Baron"'98
So, a car worthy of the Red Barron ?
Maybe.
I built the car and went to Apricot hill for the test, started out on the track and before I even hit the main straight, I fould a flaw with the car that the Barron himself wouldnt like.
I came up the hill leading to the left turn that leads to the main straight, turned, and got very little movement, turned some more, got a little bit more, turned the wheel a lot farther than I usually have to in most cars, a good 25 degrees, and finally the front tires respond with grip, obviously very sluggish
The car has a front traction/steering/weight-distribution issue to a noticeable degree, now I dont know if the car has a different steering ratio or anything, but one thing I notice is that the car is half cabin , and half 5ft long hood. Now with the rear cabin being the light end, where weight is needed sometimes, and the hood covering a good, strong engine, means most of the weight is probably there, so maybe the issue starts with a form of under-steer, due to so much weight being in the front
Now some down-force might be able fix that, but even then the front-end weight would still be a problem on turn-in and corner exit on sharper corners, where demands of the front tires can get pretty hectic and your not traveling fast enough for down-force to kick in
But as it is now, I dont think the Red Barron would like it, its not responsive enough like what his aero-craft was, its front heavy, has no momentum in the back, lacks traction all around, more so in the front, but it could be much better I think if it were to be re-vised, 6.9/10
- 5,915
- Finland
Thank you, I've been looking forward to this! 👍
The sinister looks are indeed let down a bit by the power level but there's not much to be done, I tried to make it equal to the BMW by keeping roughly the same PWR but in the end it still murdered its opposition... should probably have used full power. Nothing stops you from doing it though, that extra 40 bhp or so might help a bit. The handling surprised even me, I remembered it to be an understeering pig that needs an airfield to turn - undoubtedly a flashback of the IA-15 licence test. Anyway, that's pretty much the culmination of my ideas about how a sports Mercedes should feel and it seems I'm not alone. Need something, you know the drill.
Leonidae
(Banned)
- 6,881
- GTP_Leonidae_MFT
Stainless Steelrat
448 bhp, 549 Nm, 1094 kg
Clickable for full size
448 bhp, 549 Nm, 1094 kg
Clickable for full size
Parts to fit:
Racing Exhaust
Racing Brakes
Brake Balance Controller
Turbo Kit Stage 2
Port Polishing
Engine Balancing
Racing Chip
FC Transmission
Triple-plate Clutch
Racing Flywheel
FC LSD
FC Suspension
S3 Tyres
Weight Reduction Stage 3
Rigidity Increase (rollcage)
Oil Change
Rear Wing
New Wheels (optional)
Suspension
Spring Rate: 10.0 / 6.5
Ride Height: 115 / 100
Bound: 4 / 5
Rebound: 10 / 4
Camber: 3.0 / 1.3
Toe: -3 / -1
Stabilizers: 1 / 3
Brake Controller
Brakes: 5 / 4
Transmission
Note: First, reset the gearbox to the default settings, then set the Auto setting, and only then set the gear ratios.
Gear Ratios
1st: 2.862
2nd: 1.958
3rd: 1.450
4th: 1.147
5th: 0.932
6th: 0.766
Final Gear: 4.000
Autoset 15
LSD
Initial: 10
Acceleration: 13
Deceleration: 5
Downforce
Amount: 30 / 30
Driving Aids
ASM Oversteer: 0
ASM Understeer: 0
TCS: 0
Some time ago, we had a weird incident. We heard a loud bang and screech of tyres from the yard, and ran out to see if there had been an accident. This kid, wearing clothes that looked like they were from 80's, got out of the smoking, yet oddly frost-covered car. When we got to him, he was muttering how heavy everything was, and something about "Doctor Brown" and Libyans. We asked if there was something wrong with the car, and after a moment of stuttering, he managed to say that it couldn't reach a high enough speed. For some reason, it got only to about 80mph according to him. The car looked oddly familiar, I thought that I had seen it somewhere before, but I couldn't remember where.
Anyway, we pushed the car in and dug into the engine. We thought that it had to be some sort of a biofuel experiment gone wrong, since we found a banana, eggshells and baking soda from the tank.
After finding the faulty fuel line and more than a couple detached wires and cables, we did our best to bring up the performance while the short kid was mumbling something weird about Gigawatts. After installing a turbo and some other goodies, a dyno run announced a peak power of 450 horses. In addition, some weight was shed and the ancient suspension was replaced with a modern performance package. I was about to go on a test drive, but the kid said that the car was just fine, hopped in and drove off. I just looked at Grey and shrugged when we heard a similar bang as earlier, but there was no wreckage, only flaming trails and a smoking register plate.
- 2,063
What circuit is that Lotus HC set up for?
Around Christmas last year I spent months working up a slew of Lotus Esprits to run at the Nurburgring. I covered every model and quite a number of combinations of tyres, aero parts, roll cages etc.
I ask because, in every case, I found a bias towards higher rear roll stiffness was the key to tackling certain 'problem' areas of the circuit and, counter-intuitively, easing heavy rear tyre wear. If you tested your HC at the 'Ring and she was fine, then I need to take a look at this model range again and see what I missed
.
Around Christmas last year I spent months working up a slew of Lotus Esprits to run at the Nurburgring. I covered every model and quite a number of combinations of tyres, aero parts, roll cages etc.
I ask because, in every case, I found a bias towards higher rear roll stiffness was the key to tackling certain 'problem' areas of the circuit and, counter-intuitively, easing heavy rear tyre wear. If you tested your HC at the 'Ring and she was fine, then I need to take a look at this model range again and see what I missed
.
Rotary Junkie
Premium
- 9,810
- Canton, MI
- RJs_RX-7
I ask because, in every case, I found a bias towards higher rear roll stiffness was the key to tackling certain 'problem' areas of the circuit and, counter-intuitively, easing heavy rear tyre wear. If you tested your HC at the 'Ring and she was fine, then I need to take a look at this model range again and see what I missed
Am I missing something here though?
Grey's Lotus is indeed much stiffer out back compared to the front; which would appear to concur with your results.
- 2,063
Aye, I was wearing my 'Damper' blinkers combined with my higher-rear-ride-height equals effectively-softer-spring-rates obscurers 
.
{I hide my blushes as best I can and try to look nonchalant
}
If I may, I shall change my question significantly.
Was testing done under 'race' conditions rather than 'Free Run'? I have found that there is often a very significant difference between the two environments, to the extent that I no longer set cars up in Free Run because it's results can be so misleading.
.{I hide my blushes as best I can and try to look nonchalant
}If I may, I shall change my question significantly.
Was testing done under 'race' conditions rather than 'Free Run'? I have found that there is often a very significant difference between the two environments, to the extent that I no longer set cars up in Free Run because it's results can be so misleading.
Leonidae
(Banned)
- 6,881
- GTP_Leonidae_MFT
Sukerkin: As all of our cars, the Esprit was driven and tuned on GVS in free run mode. It might not have enough top speed for the 'ring or Le Mans, but on the rest of the tracks it's adequate. I myself haven't noticed difference between free run, race or time trial modes. Myabe your slightly raised adrenaline levels made you feel slight difference?
Camryfan: I tried to reach a sort of "between the scenes" feeling with that. This little episode could very well be from the movie, but was cut out due time and money restrictions. Who knows, maybe that's what happened?
Camryfan: I tried to reach a sort of "between the scenes" feeling with that. This little episode could very well be from the movie, but was cut out due time and money restrictions. Who knows, maybe that's what happened?
- 2,063
Cheers, Leo 👍. I recalled that that was your Test Track and modus operandi when this great thread started ... but I recalled too late (I'd posted and gone to bed by then ).I think that the differences I note between Free Run and Race are most marked with MR cars and those that have a pronounced difference in wear rates between front and rear.
In Free Run, both sets of tyres are at optimal grip levels all the time, whereas in Race the 'grip budget' is not only different between the two ends at any given point but also varies over time.
What might also play a factor is that I tend to spend a lot of time honing vehicles for the Nurburgring. I have found that dialling cars in for this wonderful circuit is a different experience than any other track. Set-ups that work very well elsewhere simply break down at the 'Ring, where stability of handling is so important. The reverse is true too in some cases (some of my 'Ring specific Esprit set-ups, for example, suffer from turbo lag and understeer on smoother, smaller, tracks). So knowing and accounting for the tyre wear can make a big difference there - especially when approaching Tiergarten for the last time
.
Leonidae
(Banned)
- 6,881
- GTP_Leonidae_MFT
I think that the differences I note between Free Run and Race are most marked with MR cars and those that have a pronounced difference in wear rates between front and rear.
In Free Run, both sets of tyres are at optimal grip levels all the time, whereas in Race the 'grip budget' is not only different between the two ends at any given point but also varies over time.
What might also play a factor is that I tend to spend a lot of time honing vehicles for the Nurburgring. I have found that dialling cars in for this wonderful circuit is a different experience than any other track. Set-ups that work very well elsewhere simply break down at the 'Ring, where stability of handling is so important. The reverse is true too in some cases (some of my 'Ring specific Esprit set-ups, for example, suffer from turbo lag and understeer on smoother, smaller, tracks). So knowing and accounting for the tyre wear can make a big difference there - especially when approaching Tiergarten for the last time
in that case, you might want to try the BMW 1-series I made. it was completely tuned on Nurb, and if you wish, you can try the TCv3 setup for that car as well. This far everyone has loved it, despite the fact that it has rather lazy engine. Just let me know and I'll PM the setup to you.
- 5,915
- Finland
Slightly odd to correct our own things but whatever... the correct wording would probably be "hot lapped and given the final tweaks" instead of "driven and tuned" as it would be a lot closer to the truth. Not every car is built from the ground up at GVS, many are, but many aren't. Quite a few of them have seen Autumn Ring and Nürburgring before GVS.
Then about the unsuitability to some tracks, it's simple maths. If we have a car that runs well on Nürburgring the only other track it'll really excel at is El Capitan, probably doing fine at Deep Forest too, and it'll be too high and soft for the rest. It scores 3/42. If we make a car that runs well on de la Sarthe II it'll work there and on the Test Course and that's it, too long gears for anywhere else. It scores 2/42. But if we make a car that runs well on GVS it'll run well on just about every "normal" course and reasonably well even on Nürburgring and de la Sarthe. It scores at least 35/42, maybe even 37/42, the two probable lost points being Midfield and High Speed Ring. Now guess why we do it like this.
"- Status
