Electric Cars - What's the Big Deal?

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BubbleBelly542

BubbleBelly542

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BubbleBelly542
Why do people care so much about electric cars? Where do you think electricity comes from, the air? Of course there are hydroelectric plants, but then you have the power lines that were built and maintenance that can result in burning fossil fuels. The only thing I feel that works as an alternative fuel source, solar power, is not readily available and good enough yet.
 
Electricity is a heck of a lot more of a renewable resource than petroleum products. Therefore it is a big deal, it isn't perfect but it's a lot better than gasoline cars.
 
CAMjhr
Electricity is a heck of a lot more of a renewable resource than petroleum products. Therefore it is a big deal, it isn't perfect but it's a lot better than gasoline cars.
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But there are still coal power plants and even nuclear plants have huge pollution. They need the substances that are delivered by fuel burning trucks. And forget renewable, I'm talking about the environment.
 
Well every person that drives a Prius instead of a Hummer is emitting less carbon dioxide, therefore slightly shrinking our carbon footprint, however small it may be. It still helps.
 
CAMjhr
Well every person that drives a Prius instead of a Hummer is emitting less carbon dioxide, therefore slightly shrinking our carbon footprint, however small it may be. It still helps.
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Directly, yes, but overall, I doubt it.
 
It's not a permanent solution, once nitrogen based fuel cells become finished that will be a lot more efficient. But still, anything other than a petrol car is an improvement.
 
Electricity can be made using renewable methods whereas oil can not. You're right that a lot of electricity is currently produced using fossil fuels but the amount being produced by other means such as renewable sources and nuclear is in increasing, take a look at France's electricity production for example:
600px-Electricity_in_France.svg.png
 
CAMjhr
It's not a permanent solution, once nitrogen based fuel cells become finished that will be a lot more efficient. But still, anything other than a petrol car is an improvement.
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Nobody is sure on what the next fuel is going to be. It's easy to get suckered into believing that we've found the perfect replacement for petrol with all the marketing lies out there.

CAMjhr
Well every person that drives a Prius instead of a Hummer is emitting less carbon dioxide, therefore slightly shrinking our carbon footprint, however small it may be. It still helps.
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Eh, debatable. You need to factor in the carbon footprint of the batteries that the Prius uses and only last 100,000 miles. People forget that WAY too often. Some will go as far as to say that if you want to save the environment, get a diesel, not a hybrid. I'm not so sure.

OP:
Yes, we still use coal and nuclear power to make most of our electricity, but with the growth of wind and solar we can make it renewable. We just haven't yet.
 
My whole point was that I'm not the most informed on the subject, but to me the advancement in environmentally safe cars is saying that something better, maybe a solution is coming along, hence the big deal.
 
BubbleBelly542
But there are still coal power plants and even nuclear plants have huge pollution. They need the substances that are delivered by fuel burning trucks. And forget renewable, I'm talking about the environment.
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So how do you think gasoline gets to the petrol station before it goes in your car, then?

CAMjhr
It's not a permanent solution, once nitrogen based fuel cells become finished that will be a lot more efficient. But still, anything other than a petrol car is an improvement.
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Suspect you mean hydrogen, since nitrogen is inert and therefore useless for energy production...


Zenith013
Eh, debatable. You need to factor in the carbon footprint of the batteries that the Prius uses and only last 100,000 miles. People forget that WAY too often. Some will go as far as to say that if you want to save the environment, get a diesel, not a hybrid. I'm not so sure.
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Few inaccuracies here. Firstly, it only takes a brand-new 100g/km hybrid 5 years of driving before it dips below the carbon footprint of even a fairly economical (150g/km) regular vehicle (and therefore even fewer years compared to a less fuel efficient vehicle), even considering the carbon laid down in its production and shipping (about 5.6 tonnes). Actual use accounts for far more pollution than production does, because production and shipping is divisible by the number of units being produced and shipped - just like a bus carrying 40 people is better per person than a bus carrying one person, even though fuel economy suffers.

The second myth is that Prius batteries last only 100k miles. There are several Prii at 300k+ miles, and other hybrids are seeing the same - such as the Ford Escape hybrids being used as taxis in New York.
 
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CAMjhr
My whole point was that I'm not the most informed on the subject, but to me the advancement in environmentally safe cars is saying that something better, maybe a solution is coming along, hence the big deal.
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At what cost?

Freedom of mobility is a big deal in the US and is the #1 reason why this country does not look like Australia. Electric cars take away this freedom or severely limit it to the point you don't go too far from your congressman's district.

In addition; those things are not cheap. With fuel prices skyrocketing, who loses the most? Those people who live paycheck to paycheck or cannot afford a $40,000 car (or the monthly payments) in order to save a few bucks at the gas station. The people who are buying these eco-golf-carts are pretty well off as these cars are a 3rd/4th car to the fleet they have in their garage.

If you're worried about CO2 emissions and think it'll be the downfall of civilization, well, what do you exhale? What are you doing about breathing less? (yes, I know it's a straw-man but it's just to point out how absurd the CO2 farce is).
 
CAMjhr
Well every person that drives a Prius instead of a Hummer is emitting less carbon dioxide, therefore slightly shrinking our carbon footprint, however small it may be. It still helps.
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No, they don't, at least not according to the publications I've read. The emissions released during the several production stages of the prius negate any reductions you would see during the life of the car.
 
Quoting from Wikipedia...

Most hydrogen is produced through steam reformation, which creates at least as much emission of carbon per mile as some of today's gasoline cars. The way we get hydrogen primarily is from reforming [natural] gas. ... You're giving away some of the energy content of natural gas.

So forget the fact that we dont have a safe means of storing and distributing hydrogen...we don't even have a way of producing it that doesn't require more non-renewable resources than your average gasoline car. The government is pushing hydrogen because the lobbyists are pushing it...and we all know who tells the lobbyists to push it...that's right, the oil companies.

The only reason we have hybrids now is because of Toyota and Honda. Japan has no investment in fossil fuels other than to sell vehicles to dumb Americans. They made hybrids successful not because they were smarter than the Amercican companies, but because they weren't pressured into making their hybrids a failure by big oil companies. Once celebrities started driving them, Ford and GM had no choice but to jump on the band wagon.

If we [the government and American car companies] spent the same resources on electric vehicle technology as we did hydrogen...we'd have a battery breakthrough by now and would have been driving electrics for the past decade. Watch the documentary "Who Killed the Electric Car" and it will all make sense.

But electrics and hybrids still have their issues. There is no free lunch. If the electricity to power them doesn't come from clean sources, they are just as bad as typical gasoline engines.
 
I never thought about production. Carry on. Sorry.
 
eSZee
No, they don't, at least not according to the publications I've read. The emissions released during the several production stages of the prius negate any reductions you would see during the life of the car.
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Would like to know which publications, as they're almost certainly wrong:

homeforsummer
Few inaccuracies here. Firstly, it only takes a brand-new 100g/km hybrid 5 years of driving before it dips below the carbon footprint of even a fairly economical (150g/km) regular vehicle (and therefore even fewer years compared to a less fuel efficient vehicle), even considering the carbon laid down in its production and shipping (about 5.6 tonnes). Actual use accounts for far more pollution than production does
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I liked the documentary and mostly agree with the directors but, it's quite biased, subjective, and only 1 side of the story.

homeforsummer
Would like to know which publications, as they're almost certainly wrong:
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I hope I still have the info. They were journals and other articles from the college library I used for a paper a few years ago.
 
Yes, the documentary is very one sided...but they stick to the facts.

Another Wikipedia quote, so i remain on the neutral side of this discussion...

Some of the largest world reserves of lithium and other rare metals [required for hybrid/electric vehicles] are located in countries with strong resource nationalism, unstable governments or hostile to U.S. interests, raising concerns about the risk of replacing dependence on foreign oil with a new dependence on hostile countries to supply strategic materials.

So basically, there is no escaping our current situation with the middle east. We'd just be trading them for something else. It is a gamble in both directions so one has to look very closely at the numbers to decide what is cost effective and the best for our environment.

Another interesting documentary to watch is "Gas Land". If you don't know what Fracking is, i strongly suggest checking it out. Anyone that says tapping into our country's free natural gas reserves is "clean" is lying through their teeth.
 
Right now I don't think electricity is better than gas. I remember seeing a chart that showed many states of the US that would actually produce more CO2 with electric cars and this doesn't take into amount the environmental damage produced by the batteries, their creation, and disposal. This will change with time and electricity will become much more efficient than gas but i dont think that time is here yet. I don't think electricity is really a big deal. Now hydrogen, that's interesting.
 
Most batteries are recycled...even if you dump them in the trash almost every transfer station can pick them out with electromagnets. There is a huge discount on car batteries if you bring your old one back in...so people would be stupid to let it rot in their garage.
 
eSZee
I hope I still have the info. They were journals and other articles from the college library I used for a paper a few years ago.
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Just made sure I had the info for my figures too, and I do. The energy figures have been worked out by DEFRA, and the production figures by i-Car magazine.

Standardisations: The hybrid figures have been worked out using a figure of 110g/km CO2 (above average for things like the Prius) and regular cars on a figure of 175g/km, which is about 40mpg I think in UK gallons.

First table: Regular car vs. hybrid vs. EV in terms of manufacturing emissions, broken down into components:

DSC_0143-1.jpg


Second table: Total carbon-equivalent emissions over a full dust-to-rust lifecycle:

DSC_0145.jpg


Third, fourth, fifth tables: CO2 impact over the years, assuming you already have a non-hybrid of 5 years old at 175g/km, doing 10k miles a year:

DSC_0144.jpg

DSC_0146-1.jpg

DSC_0147.jpg


And I'm aware that CO2 isn't the be-all and end-all (and I object to our road tax being based on it) but other emissions are equivalent to fuel consumption too, by and large, with more modern cars generally being cleaner anyway than old ones and diesels generally being worse than petrols.

EVs are less clean than hybrids depending on how the energy that powers them is produced - in the UK it's mostly gas (43%) then 33% coal, which isn't brilliant but isn't terrible. France is mainly nuclear, which is pretty good. Iceland is almost 100% geothermal, which is brilliant, so an EV in Iceland is essentially zero emissions (err... natural emissions from volcanoes excepted...)

chuyler1
Most batteries are recycled...even if you dump them in the trash almost every transfer station can pick them out with electromagnets. There is a huge discount on car batteries if you bring your old one back in...so people would be stupid to let it rot in their garage.
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True. As car components go, batteries are actually quite good in terms of recyclability.
 
homeforsummer
So how do you think gasoline gets to the petrol station before it goes in your car, then?
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I know I know it must be transported too. But think of the fuel used to cut down trees and perform other tasks that are involved in power lines. How about shipping those plug sockets to a hardware store huh? It all adds up.
 
eSZee
No, they don't, at least not according to the publications I've read. The emissions released during the several production stages of the prius negate any reductions you would see during the life of the car.
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Exactly
 
BubbleBelly542
I know I know it must be transported too. But think of the fuel used to cut down trees and perform other tasks that are involved in power lines. How about shipping those plug sockets to a hardware store huh? It all adds up.
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So how about all the energy it takes to find oil? Or build the oil platforms out at sea? Or drill for it? Or move it to a refinery? Or refine it? Or transport it? Or build and fuel the trucks that transport it? Or power the gas stations serving it up? Does that energy just appear out of nowhere?

Trust me, every time someone is pedantic about "where the electricity comes from", I can be equally as pedantic about the vast amount of energy it takes to drill for oil.

BubbleBelly542
Exactly
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You've now managed to not read either of the posts where I explained that this isn't the case.
 
Great reference homeforsummer. Since I drive about 20k a year, would that mean I'd see the CO2 benefit of a hybrid after only 2.5 years instead of 5 years?

I know i've done the dollar math on a hybrid vs a gas and it wouldn't affect my wallet until after 5 years of my driving (given a slow increase in gas prices)...around the time I'd be trading it in anyway. 5 years and 100k in the rust belt is about when cars start breaking down and repairs begin to add up and they simply aren't worth the hassle. I've pushed a few cars to the 10 year mark but if you need reliable transportation i don't advise it. Might work in the midwest though.
 
chuyler1
Quoting from Wikipedia...
Most hydrogen is produced through steam reformation...


dumb Americans.
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(Dumb Americans and the Wikipedia quote are not linked as the ellipsis might suggest)

First of all, electrolysis is also a way to get hydrogen foe fuel cells. I believe it is more expensive but more efficient. If we can bring costs down that would be our best bet.

And excuse me.
 
homeforsummer
So how about all the energy it takes to find oil? Or build the oil platforms out at sea? Or drill for it? Or move it to a refinery? Or refine it? Or transport it? Or build and fuel the trucks that transport it? Or power the gas stations serving it up
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Yes I know. Its just but worth the extra money! Not in my opinion at least.
 
BubbleBelly542
First of all, electrolysis is also a way to get hydrogen foe fuel cells. I believe it is more expensive but more efficient. If we can bring costs down that would be our best bet.
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Electrolysis is very inefficient. It takes more energy to extract hydrogen from water than you get from the hydrogen in a fuel cell.

chuyler1
Great reference homeforsummer. Since I drive about 20k a year, would that mean I'd see the CO2 benefit of a hybrid after only 2.5 years instead of 5 years?
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Not necessarily, as there's a law of diminishing returns - whether you own a hybrid for 2.5 or 5 years it still needs to pay off the energy expended during its production and shipping, but generally they're considerably more efficient than regular cars.

BubbleBelly542
Yes I know. Its just but worth the extra money! Not in my opinion at least.
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At what point will it cease to be worth the money then? $10 a gallon? $20? $50? Gas isn't going to get cheaper, that's for sure.
 

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