Electric Cars - What's the Big Deal?

[BrutherSuperior]

(Dumb Americans and the Wikipedia quote are not linked as the ellipsis might suggest)

First of all, electrolysis is also a way to get hydrogen foe fuel cells. I believe it is more expensive but more efficient. If we can bring costs down that would be our best bet.

And excuse me.

Ok lets think about this...

Electrolysis uses electricity, right? So you're using electricity to crack the H from the O in order to have a raw material for a hydrogen fuel cell. Now, leaving the manufacturing bits (which are filthy) out of the equation; what is the purpose of the fuel cell? To create electricity.

Not exactly a paradigm of efficiency now is it? This is a big reason why governments should stay the hell out of markets/business as it breeds just as much wasteful spending as it does cronyism. IMO, the whole Dept. of Energy is a gigantic slush fund...but that's for a different day on a different sub-forum.

...

Here's a fresh article saying AGW (Man-Bear-Pig) isn't anywhere near as predictable or dangerous as the alarmists, and governments, think.

So breath easy my friends...CO2 emissions isn't going to kill the polar bears.

 

[chuyler1]

And on Electrolysis...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electrolysis_of_water
The energy efficiency of water electrolysis varies widely with the numbers cited below on the optimistic side. Some report 50–80%.[12][13][14] These values refer only to the efficiency of converting electrical energy into hydrogen's chemical energy. The energy lost in generating the electricity is not included. For instance, when considering a power plant that converts the heat of nuclear reactions into hydrogen via electrolysis, the total efficiency may be closer to 30–45%,[15] although the inefficiencies of powerplants in turning heat into electrical energy is not usually included in efficiency, so the former measure of 50-80% efficient is probably a more realistic efficiency.

So right off the bat we're losing close to 50% efficiency of the electricity that could have been used to power the vehicle directly. It doesn't sound promising.

PS, I know wikipedia isn't the most reliable...but it's generally pretty neutral citing both pros and cons. i always look for the cons in the opposite article to compare.

 

[homeforsummer]

So breath easy my friends...CO2 emissions isn't going to kill the polar bears.

This cannot be any more inefficient nor would it bring down costs...it'll just shift the costs to another product which we must buy.

I know what you mean. That said, from a personal economics point of view (and macroeconomics, from the POV of reducing oil dependency from less than salubrious countries) it's quite nice to think that there are options.

From a personal point of view too, I'm interested in the engineering behind EVs and hybrids. Any fool can make an interesting internal combustion car, the challenge now is to make hybrids and EVs that people want to drive.

From a purely cost-motivated point of view, they're expensive at the moment but that will change. It's a classic early adopters scenario. Hybrids aren't a bad option at the moment, solely because there's a used car market for them already so you don't necessarily need to pay a fortune for one, so the savings are greater fresh off the bat.

 

[chuyler1]

Hybrids aren't a bad option at the moment, solely because there's a used car market for them already so you don't necessarily need to pay a fortune for one, so the savings are greater fresh off the bat.

Until the battery pack fails outside of the warranty period and the manufacturer tells you to dish out half the price you paid for the car to replace it.

 

[homeforsummer]

Until the battery pack fails outside of the warranty period and the manufacturer tells you to dish out half the price you paid for the car to replace it.

Except that doesn't happen. Again, I've linked to it already (funny how people only read what they want to read).

On Ford's Escape hybrid taxis in New York:

"Among the 190,000 nickel-metal-hydride battery packs it has built, just five reliability issues have been logged, out of a total of more than 42 million cells in those packs. The five cells involved in those incidents turned out to have two different manufacturing flaws, which Ford resolved with its supplier. According to Ford, it has had no cell issues at all since 2007"

"Put another way, an owner's odds of experiencing a battery cell problem in a Ford hybrid are 8.5 million to 1. That's as rare as being struck by lightning, twice"

Or the fact that several Escapes have done over 300,000 miles on the same set of batteries. Several Prius have done mileage that high too, again on the original packs. And Honda UK has an Insight with 300k on, again on the original battery pack.

 

[CMvan46]

Why do people care so much about electric cars? Where do you think electricity comes from, the air? Of course there are hydroelectric plants, but then you have the power lines that were built and maintenance that can result in burning fossil fuels. The only thing I feel that works as an alternative fuel source, solar power, is not readily available and good enough yet.

Really thought that one out eh? Lets just say one day we get to near 100% electrical cars for commuter cars. Due to this we need an extra 1 million gas or diesel trucks to maintain the extra hydroelectric plants.

Now would you rather have the 1 million trucks driving around or the hundreds of millions of gas cars on the road at any given moment?


Edit:

To all this freedom CRAP... You have ben conditioned exactly how car companies want you to be. It's exactly how beer companies want to associate if you are watching sports you have to be drinking their beer... Both cars and beer are excelling at this.

You can still take electric trains, public transit, and YOUR electric car. They are in their infancy right now and soon I'm sure their range will be extremely lengthened. At worst you plan your route so that you stop on your route to vacation or whatever and you stay a night at a "sleep & charge inn" and away you go.

It will take getting used to for sure. But at the rate we are going we will run out of fuel eventually or kill ourselves by destroying the ozone later or everything living. Take your pick.

 

[chuyler1]

power line maintenance... powerlines see more activity from local kids on dirt bikes than they do maintenance vehicles.

 

[homeforsummer]

power line maintenance... powerlines see more activity from local kids on dirt bikes than they do maintenance vehicles.

Huh?

 

[CMvan46]

Huh?

He is saying that the argument that cars are needed to maintain lines is rediculous because kids on dirt bikes go by more than maintenance vehicles.

 

[chuyler1]

It was in reference to

but then you have the power lines that were built and maintenance that can result in burning fossil fuels.

 

[homeforsummer]

I'm still not entirely sure that all makes sense to me, but since the subject of power lines has been brought up, I'd add that it's largely irrelevant anyway since we already need them to power our homes and businesses. An EV infrastructure won't suddenly result in pylons springing up everywhere because it's already been happening as a result of the electricity we've been using since the 19th Century.

 

[chuyler1]

Well here in N.H. they're pushing to add powerlines down from Canada so we can use their clean hydropower. Just like the Cape Wind project, people are fighting it for god knows what reason... their beach front views, or backyard vistas. Everyone wants clean energy...just not from their back yard.

 

[BubbleBelly542]

I'm still not entirely sure that all makes sense to me, but since the subject of power lines has been brought up, I'd add that it's largely irrelevant anyway since we already need them to power our homes and businesses. An EV infrastructure won't suddenly result in pylons springing up everywhere because it's already been happening as a result of the electricity we've been using since the 19th Century.

Lines may begin to overload when people charge their cars as well as power their homes.

 

[homeforsummer]

Lines may begin to overload when people charge their cars as well as power their homes.

EV uptake is so gradual that grid improvements will outstep the amount of people plugging in their cars around the country. Even then, the vast majority of people will be charging overnight, when their car won't be competing with the TVs, computers, oven and other high current appliances.

Yes, there'd be problems if the whole country suddenly decided to buy EVs and all charge them at peak times, but that's a pretty unlikely scenario. The only concerns I've seen so far have been from the Toronto hydro energy chief (indeed, I wrote an article on it myself) but his figures rely on ten percent of people on every street in the area all charging at once. Since worldwide sales of stuff like the Nissan LEAF are currently only in the thousands (compared to millions of regular cars), I don't see it being a big problem.

Any more unresearched myths you'd like dispelled?

 

[Crispy]

Yes, the documentary is very one sided...but they stick to the facts.

Another Wikipedia quote, so i remain on the neutral side of this discussion...

Some of the largest world reserves of lithium and other rare metals [required for hybrid/electric vehicles] are located in countries with strong resource nationalism, unstable governments or hostile to U.S. interests, raising concerns about the risk of replacing dependence on foreign oil with a new dependence on hostile countries to supply strategic materials.

So basically, there is no escaping our current situation with the middle east. We'd just be trading them for something else. It is a gamble in both directions so one has to look very closely at the numbers to decide what is cost effective and the best for our environment.

Another interesting documentary to watch is "Gas Land". If you don't know what Fracking is, i strongly suggest checking it out. Anyone that says tapping into our country's free natural gas reserves is "clean" is lying through their teeth.

That's just sad how that man was able to light his water on fire. Worst part is you can't do really anything about it.

A lot of people I know who bought the Prius didn't do there research on the car they were buying. They just wanted to seem enviornmentaly green, but here's the catch.

As already noted, the Prius is partly driven by a battery which contains nickel. The nickel is mined and smelted at a plant in Sudbury, Ontario. This plant has caused so much environmental damage to the surrounding environment that NASA has used the ‘dead zone’ around the plant to test moon rovers. The area around the plant is devoid of any life for miles.

The plant is the source of all the nickel found in a Prius’ battery and Toyota purchases 1,000 tons annually. Dubbed the Superstack, the plague-factory has spread sulfur dioxide across northern Ontario, becoming every environmentalist’s nightmare.

http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/2007/03/which-is-greener-prius-or-hummer.html

Here's Google Maps Data of Sudbury, Ontario, Canada. You can see why NASA tested the moon rover here.

So you see, Electric car's shouldn't be the future. But don't think that that link is biased, because they go on to say that the Hummer uses fuels produced from hostile countries, while the Prius uses minerals from happy Canada.

 

[BubbleBelly542]

That's just sad how that man was able to light his water on fire. Worst part is you can't do really anything about it.

A lot of people I know who bought the Prius didn't do there research on the car they were buying. They just wanted to seem enviornmentaly green, but here's the catch.

http://fallbackbelmont.blogspot.com/2007/03/which-is-greener-prius-or-hummer.html

Here's Google Maps Data of Sudbury, Ontario, Canada. You can see why NASA tested the moon rover here.

So you see, Electric car's shouldn't be the future. But don't think that that link is biased, because they go on to say that the Hummer uses fuels produced from hostile countries, while the Prius uses minerals from happy Canada.

A bit off topic but when I looked up mining operations in sudbury on Google maps, I came across something called 'Datamine Canada INC.'. Is this the company that mines the minetals? And just to the south, there is what looks to be a race track. Can anyone tell me about it?

 

[homeforsummer]

So you see, Electric car's shouldn't be the future. But don't think that that link is biased, because they go on to say that the Hummer uses fuels produced from hostile countries, while the Prius uses minerals from happy Canada.

Most electric cars use lithium-ion batteries, not nickel-metal hydride, so that immediately doesn't apply to pure EVs. And ironically, most of the world's lithium resources are beneath the Atacama desert in Bolivia, where there's no plantlife or wildlife to harm from its mining. And buying lithium from Bolivia is mildly preferable to buying oil from the East.

The trouble from any perspective is that as a species we consume natural resources, and it's pretty much unavoidable. Arguing over which one we should consume is like arguing over which leg you'd like cut off - neither is a brilliant option, but you base your decision on the one that would have the least impact on your own life.

The Hummer thing is dumb anyway. It's been disproved on dozens of occasions. Not least because it weighs well over double what a Prius does, so every Hummer that was made automatically used well over twice the resources to produce that a Prius does.

 

[Grand Prix]

Blah blah blah, let's get down to the real root of the issue, and why people are skeptical of electric cars in the first place:


1) They want a car that they can refuel anywhere and keep driving across the entire continent if they wanted to

2) They don't want to have to wait for their car to charge if they get a call that requires them to be there at a moment's notice

3) (Only applies to enthusiasts) They want to be able to customize and tune their motor

4) (Only applies to enthusiasts) They want their car to sound like a savage beast to satisfy their inner child


Solve these problems and all will be good. 3 and 4 are arguably less important, as most people are happy to drive around in a Corolla, Camry or fridge, etc. Although enthusiasts have the loudest voices.

 

[Zenith]

Also worth noting that electric power gives you instant maximum torque anywhere on the rev range (theoretically). This makes them a prime consideration for sports car manufacturers looking for great accleration. Look at the Porsche 918. That's another reason why electric power is a big deal.

 

[BubbleBelly542]

Also worth noting that electric power gives you instant maximum torque anywhere on the rev range (theoretically). This makes them a prime consideration for sports car manufacturers looking for great accleration. Look at the Porsche 918. That's another reason why electric power is a big deal.

I wouldn't race an electric car. Why? I like to be able to hear my car. I don't want to go 200 and just hear the wind. What fun is that. Can you imagine the races? You'd just hear the crowd.

 

[Zenith]

I wouldn't race an electric car. Why? I like to be able to hear my car. I don't want to go 200 and just hear the wind. What fun is that. Can you imagine the races? You'd just hear the crowd.

How would you like the sound of a 500hp V8?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porsche_918



edit: The 918 uses the electric motors for quick torque and acceleration and its engine for lots of power. It's a brilliant hybrid.

 

[Radracing]

On a lighter note: PS3 and GT5 saves the planet and promotes greener racing. Imagine all the GT5 drivers if they put all those miles in real cars driving round and round those real world tracks. Specially all those cars we crash in, those wrecking yards would be booming. ...and I don't want to hear that all the electricity our PS3 are using is also polluting the environment.

Wana save the planet? Go drive a SIM racer

 

[CMvan46]

Blah blah blah, let's get down to the real root of the issue, and why people are skeptical of electric cars in the first place:

1) They want a car that they can refuel anywhere and keep driving across the entire continent if they wanted to

2) They don't want to have to wait for their car to charge if they get a call that requires them to be there at a moment's notice

3) (Only applies to enthusiasts) They want to be able to customize and tune their motor

4) (Only applies to enthusiasts) They want their car to sound like a savage beast to satisfy their inner child

Solve these problems and all will be good. 3 and 4 are arguably less important, as most people are happy to drive around in a Corolla, Camry or fridge, etc. Although enthusiasts have the loudest voices.

I very much agree. We are talking about enormous change to the way we live our lives and that will not come easy. We've been driving gas cars for more than a 100 years and people in general don't like change. If you need proof look at the people in the states protesting FREE healthcare....

It takes adjusting but I couldn't give a rats behind if you want to hear your car when you race. In the future I gaurantee you racing gas cars will end up illegal. If there is going to be a world in a 100 or 200 years from now your going to have to make sacrifices. I know must people this generation can't grasp that deep a concept though.

 

[Grand Prix]

I very much agree. We are talking about enormous change to the way we live our lives and that will not come easy. We've been driving gas cars for more than a 100 years and people in general don't like change. If you need proof look at the people in the states protesting FREE healthcare....

It takes adjusting but I couldn't give a rats behind if you want to hear your car when you race. In the future I gaurantee you racing gas cars will end up illegal. If there is going to be a world in a 100 or 200 years from now your going to have to make sacrifices. I know must people this generation can't grasp that deep a concept though.

I don't feel that racing with gasoline cars will ever be banned. By themselves they have very little if any effect on the environment. Even if one day the FIA bans them, I imagine that a new sanctioning body will start up specifically for gasoline racing. Even if just for historic races.

 

[CMvan46]

I don't feel that racing with gasoline cars will ever be banned. By themselves they have very little if any effect on the environment. Even if one day the FIA bans them, I imagine that a new sanctioning body will start up specifically for gasoline racing. Even if just for historic races.

I don't think it will be left up to people. At some point the world's situation will become desperate enough to warrant it. I'll gaurantee some day maybe not in 50 years or even a 100 but it will one day because at the rate we are going there won't be much world left to destroy.

 

[homeforsummer]

Blah blah blah, let's get down to the real root of the issue, and why people are skeptical of electric cars in the first place:

1) They want a car that they can refuel anywhere and keep driving across the entire continent if they wanted to

2) They don't want to have to wait for their car to charge if they get a call that requires them to be there at a moment's notice

3) (Only applies to enthusiasts) They want to be able to customize and tune their motor

4) (Only applies to enthusiasts) They want their car to sound like a savage beast to satisfy their inner child

Solve these problems and all will be good. 3 and 4 are arguably less important, as most people are happy to drive around in a Corolla, Camry or fridge, etc. Although enthusiasts have the loudest voices.

You're pretty much right. People want a large range even if they'll never use it (and the vast majority of cars are never used for more than the commute to work) in the same way that people buy supercars even though they'll never go 200mph and buy off-roaders even though the most they'll use it for is bumping kerbs. "It's nice to know it's there".

I wouldn't agree that enthusiasts have the loudest voices though. Most vocal perhaps, but enthusiasts make up a pretty small proportion of the people who drive.

And as you say, people are quite happy to drive around in white-good vehicles like Corollas. These are the sort of vehicles that would be perfect for replacement by electric cars. Nobody wants to see electric supercars or electric F1 cars, but then those things aren't going to be the vehicles replaced by EVs anyway - EVs will be the city cars, compacts etc that get endlessly driven between home and work or home and the mall - places you'll be able to charge at both ends.

I wouldn't race an electric car. Why? I like to be able to hear my car. I don't want to go 200 and just hear the wind. What fun is that. Can you imagine the races? You'd just hear the crowd.

I've driven five different electric cars and none have been silent. Quiet yes, but not silent. Funnily too, electric motors don't even all sound the same. It's like comparing the sound of different space ships.

I don't think widespread electric racing is something to worry too much about as the world's major series will be fossil-fuelled for some time to come, but the only people who complain that EV racing would be rubbish to watch are people who've never seen the TTX GP racers at the Isle of Man TT, or watch an electric Beetle do 11 second quarters, or the Nissan Leaf Nismo RC car:

​

Anything that sounds like a jet turbine throttling up and down is okay in my book. Yeah, it's no V8, but different doesn't automatically mean bad.

 

[Famine]

As a point of order, anyone who is a car enthusiast will want everyone to use electric cars for their commute or daily drive. That way they don't use up any gas and we can use it to fuel the interesting cars.

 

[Grand Prix]

Enthusiasts don't exist in the numbers they used to, but they still have a lot of power over the masses. Particularly ones that work at sportscar companies.

How many children around the world have become petrolheads because of an idolized piece of machinery posted on their bedroom wall? Or because they have nostalgia of their father's V8 Pontiac? Or they played with small diecast models in their toddler years? That's power you can't buy. That's the power of passion. All of us are addicted to motorsports and automobiles because of this passion, in one way or another.

It's up to Tesla and other manufacturers that make electric cars to make people love them from a young age.


Not being 100% serious, so you know,

 

[Famine]

Oh heavens no. We don't need, or want, electric sports cars and supercars. We want electric cars to take the place of the generic two/three-box commuterbores that everyone drives in rush hour.

For every gallon of gas they don't waste in a Corolla, we can use a gallon in a V8.


Just like the car saved the horse - by taking over its job, meaning horses are now used for sport or recreation rather than worked to death - the "alternative fuel vehicle" will save the sports car.

 

[Grand Prix]

Oh heavens no. We don't need, or want, electric sports cars and supercars. We want electric cars to take the place of the generic two/three-box commuterbores that everyone drives in rush hour.

For every gallon of gas they don't waste in a Corolla, we can use a gallon in a V8.


Just like the car saved the horse - by taking over its job, meaning horses are now used for sport or recreation rather than worked to death - the "alternative fuel vehicle" will save the sports car.

Totally agreed. Need a way to get more people interested in them though.