SNAIL Tuning and Team Series - Season 2 Sign-ups Open

The sign-ups for the second season are open!

For anyone interested in the replays, they are available online.

Welcome SNAIL drivers and anyone else that may be interested.

I currently run a little parity series on Tuesday nights. And I've come up with an idea for a series to run on Tuesday nights during most of July. This thread is to explore that idea, garner interest, and launch this idea.

The Idea

This will be a racing series that runs four weeks during July, on Tuesday evenings, 10:00 p.m. Eastern. It will be on the 10th, 17th, 24th, and 31st.

There will be two groups of people involved in this. These two groups will be vying for points separately.

Constructors

We are looking for three to seven people to be the Constructors. Constructors will build a car to the regulations we set. They will then assemble a team of two to four drivers according to the policies we set. Constructors will win points for their cars.

It really is that simple.

Drivers

Drivers will be grouped into teams of two to four drivers, depending on interest. They will be tasked to run races over four weeks in a car built by one of the Constructors. They will be asked not to change the settings at all. They will win points individually, and they will win points for their Constructor.

It really is that simple.

Rules

1. Teams
   1. Teams may run the same car, or a different car per driver.
   2. Teams may tune and re-tune a car as many times as they want during the season, and even between rounds on the same evening.
2. Constructors
   1. Constructors will be primarily responsible for building the cars to be raced. They can take driver input, but their decision for set up is final.
   2. Constructors will be responsible for drafting Drivers.
3. Drivers
   1. Drivers will respect the setup as prescribed by the Constructors. They may give input, but Constructors' decisions are final.
   2. Drivers will respect the GT Planet OLR, and will be subject to disqualification.
   3. Drivers may have a chance to test cars from different teams before the draft. Any knowledge of another team's setup should be kept confidential.
   4. Drivers may be traded if their driving style does not work well with the Constructor's tuning style (and there are other drivers with whom to be traded). Any knowledge of another team's setup should be kept confidential.
4. Regulations
   1. Cars
      1. All cars must be front or mid-front engine.
      2. All cars must only be rear wheel drive.
      3. All cars must have no more than 305 HP with no less than 97% engine limiting.
      4. All cars must have a weight of no less than 1,100 Kg with no more than 50 Kg of ballast.
      5. Cars may have any tires up to Sports Soft
      6. Cars from established tuning garages, such as Spoon and AEM, are prohibited.
      7. Concept cars are prohibited.
      8. Race cars are prohibited, this includes Race Modified, Touring Cars.
      9. For races, the body must be painted in a shade of the team's color.
      10. Once a car has been entered into the series, it can not be replaced. The tune may be adjusted, and drivers on the same team may swap cars, but the cars must remain in the series. So, if a team decided to run only FDs, they can't replace one of them with an FC. Or, if the team decided to run one FC and one FD, they can't switch over to run only FDs.
   2. Event Settings
      1. Start Type: Grid Start
      2. Boost: Off
      3. Penalty: Off
      4. Visible Damage: Off
      5. Mechanical Damage: Light
      6. Slipstream Strength: Weak
      7. Tire Wear/Fuel Consumption: On
      8. Grip Reduction on Wet Track/Track Edge: Real
   3. Regulation Settings
      1. No Skid Recovery Force
      2. Driving Line Off
      3. No Active Steering
      4. No TCS
      5. No ASM
5. Points
   1. Drivers in first place will receive 16 points, second will receive 15, and so on.
   2. Constructor's will receive the same points from each driver on their team.
6. Races
   1. All race sessions will be held at 22:00 Eastern time.
   2. All race sessions will be held in the SNAIL_Division2 lounge (send a friend request if you haven't already).
   3. We will run the same track twice each scheduled session.
   4. Each of the two races will be the same number of laps, and will last about 40 minutes.
   5. There will be a 15 minute qualifying session for race 1.
   6. There will be a 5 minute break between races.
   7. The second race will be Reverse Grid.
7. Schedule
   1. 10 July:
      • Trial Mountain
      • 24 Laps
   2. 17 July:
      • High Speed Ring
      • 32 Laps
   3. 24 July:
      • Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca
      • 24 Laps
   4. 31 July:
      • Circuito de Madrid / Reverse
      • 

Teams

• Lime Time Racing
  • Home Track: High Speed Ring
  • Team Color: Green
  • Constructor: Jahgee1124 (TheJahgee)
  • Drivers:
    1. esh (GTP_esh)
    2. Oshawa-Joe (Oshawa-Joe/GTP_CarbonFightr)
    3. spooble (spooble)
• Mazda Rotarysport
  • Home Track: Circuito de Madrid / Reverse
  • Team Color: Grayscale
  • Constructor: MrMelancholy15 (MrMelancholy15)
  • Drivers:
    1. MrMelancholy15 (MrMelancholy15)
    2. DrKronin (DrKronin)
    3. BeRandom (GTP_BeRandom)
• Team Blue
  • Team Color: Blue
  • Drivers:
    1. irmopars (Mighty_mopar)
    2. Diabolicwyvern (Diabolicwyvern)
• Team Orange
  • Home Track: Mazda Raceway Laguna Seca
  • Team Color: Orange
  • Constructor: JLBowler (JLBowler)
  • Drivers:
    1. kcheeb (kcheeb)
    2. dabneyd (dabneyd)
    3. Vol Jbolaz (Vol_Jbolaz)
• Team Red
  • Home Track: Trial Mountain
  • Team Color: Red
  • Constructor: Dragonwar233 (ADR_BRONCO)
  • Drivers
    1. bdubclub (bdubclub)
    2. zer05ive (zer05ive)
    3. Chiochan (ChuthuluGoat)

Standings

Full Standings

Teams
(points - change - team - platform)

1. 202 - 0 - Orange - Nissan 350Z (Z33) '03
2. 192 - +1 - Blue - Shelby Series One '03
3. 192 - -1 - Lime Time Racing - Mazda RX-7 Spirit R Type A (FD) '02
4. 160 - 0 - Red - Mazda RX-8 Type S '07
5. 130 - 0 - Mazda Rotarysport - Mazda RX-7 Spirit R Type A (FD) '02

Drivers
(points - change - driver - team - platform)

1. 113 - 0 - Diabolicwyvern - Blue - Shelby Series One '03
2. 104 - +1 - dabneyd - Orange - Nissan 350Z (Z33, EU) '03
3. 97 - +1 - kcheeb - Orange - Nissan 350Z (Z33, US) '03
4. 89 - -2 - GTP_esh - Lime Time Racing - Mazda RX-7 Spirit R Type A (FD) '02
5. 82 - +1 - GTP_CarbonFightr - Lime Time Racing - Mazda RX-7 Spirit R Type A (FD) '02
6. 79 - -1 - Mighty_mopar - Blue - Shelby Series One '03
7. 77 - 0 - zer05ive - Red - Mazda RX-8 Type S '07
8. 72 - 0 - spooble - Lime Time Racing - Mazda RX-7 Spirit R Type A (FD) '02
9. 61 - +1 - Vol_Jbolaz - Orange - Nissan 350Z (Z33, EU) '03
10. 57 - +1 - GTP_BeRandom - Mazda Rotarysport - Mazda RX-7 Spirit R Type A (FD) '02
11. 55 - +2 - DrKronin - Mazda Rotarysport - Mazda RX-7 Spirit R Type A (FD) '02
12. 46 - 0 - ChuthuluGoat - Red - Mazda RX-8 Type S '07
13. 44 - -4 - bdubclub - Red - Mazda RX-8 Type S '07
14. 26 - 0 - MrMelancholy15 - Mazda Rotarysport - Mazda RX-7 Spirit R Type A (FD) '02

I would like to be considered a Free Agent Driver from D2.

To keep in the spirit of racing, and personal preference, I'd like to do a 90-minute race rather than two 45-minute races. Sunday's already require us to practice for 3 car/track combos.

I've never raced with Full Damage on but, with Sundays as precedent, I'm willing to try it.

As for everything else, I agree.

I just wanted to say that in concept I think the "contructors" idea sounds really fun. As to whether or not people end up building the same car pretty much, all comes down to how the regulations are set out. I suggest you go for a sort of GT formula where you mandate certain heights and widths, dimensions of the cars (even possibly have a handicap system where the smaller the car, the more allowance for power), engine size limits (people would really dig up some interesting choices if you kept the engine capacity on the low side).

That should make things quite interesting. As far as making power goes (so people don't just fully upgrade the cars to limit the engine down to half its breath) you could ban certain upgrades and limiter percentages. Have all the constructors put their cars on the borrow system for inspection by you and company as well, a semi-parc fermé.

I don't suggest you set a hard power limit, a PP max. sure, but allow people to get creative with their engi ne set ups (as creative as they cab get within th confines of GT5 at least), that would also give guys a lesson in aero tuning for more power without breaching maximum PP. And don't restrict the cars all to RM's and TC's... that's just too narrow a scope.

I also believe you should allow teams to change their cars completely if they want (btw, making people feel "stuck" to a car they deem crappy is never a good way to keep people racing) but you could add a compromise of sorts in order to keep it interesting for the championship fight.

Say you allow contructors to "rebuild" but at the cost of manufacturer points. Of course you're trying to go for a realistic lower category racing series, not F1 where they're allowed to innovate constantly. Maybe even a budget cap could work where you give them all unlimited funds with which they can initially build the cars but then allow them a set amount of credits as a follow up for tweaking their "design." But considerable back-end tracking is involved so it'd be something to onsider carefully.

I also had a quick flash of an idea for some sort of drivetrain handicap system so you don't have to ban all those sweet AWD machines. You could mandate either a higher power allowance for FF and FR cars, simply decrease the AWD's PP max, or even make them use a tire compound that's one step lower since they just launch out of corners so well.



Or you could just forget all that, set a PP target, leave it wide open, let the people go nuts and call it a series. I'll think it's awesome either way.

I've always kept track of your home in the C&L's section and you all always come up with some fun ideas 👍.

I'll be keeping a refreshed eye on this one for sure.

Sign me up as a driver. Who will step up to be a constructor?

I've always wondered how much of my successes and failures come from the tuning/building side, and how much comes from the driving side. It'd be nice to remove those variables and just see how well I can test and build.


I know that I'm not a SNAIL member, but, maybe you'd let me in, as a constructor, since I'm attending college to become a mechanic. From there, I might become a racing driver, or a small (company size, not car size) manufacturer.

Just a flirt with the technical side of motorsports would be pretty incredible.

Anyways, because of this post, I'll be subscribed, and, if you want me & my input, I'd be glad to give it.

Ciao!

I'm down for D3 driver's list. pick me pick me.
If someone puts the tuned cars in the snail division# online borrow area can more than one person borrow it at the same time? if so that would be easy.

Wardez

I've always kept track of your home in the C&L's section and you all always come up with some fun ideas 👍.

I'll be keeping a refreshed eye on this one for sure.

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Thank you very much, and I hope you'll do more than just keep an eye on things. I hope you'll join.

I like your ideas. I do have a fear that if the car requirements are permissive enough, the series might be dominated by AWD cars. That is one reason why I am interested in using a success ballast system, to compensate for things after the fact. My concern is, how much of a PP/HP handicap is enough before we start?

And you are right, if we force a team to stick with a struggling car, we may lose interest. I don't mind keeping the series cost based, but I never feel that prices in the game are balanced properly. So maybe teams can sacrifice points to replace/rebuild cars.

MrMelancholy15

I know that I'm not a SNAIL member, but, maybe you'd let me in, as a constructor, since I'm attending college to become a mechanic. From there, I might become a racing driver, or a small (company size, not car size) manufacturer.

Anyways, because of this post, I'll be subscribed, and, if you want me & my input, I'd be glad to give it.

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I've added you to the list, welcome.

And yes, as the first person to commit to wanting to build a car, please give input. Is there a power point, a car style, something that would appeal to you?

Chiochan

I'm down for D3 driver's list. pick me pick me.
If someone puts the tuned cars in the snail division# online borrow area can more than one person borrow it at the same time? if so that would be easy.

Click to expand...

But you can't take borrowed cars online.

My opinion is pretty much based on an idea of a lowest possible lap time PP factoring. Obviously, for example, a high downforce MR car would always run the lowest lap times at a specific PP.

FWD cars would run the LONGEST lap times, because of the torque steer, understeer, etc.

So, you could, technically open it up to cars of all PPs as they are stock, excluding cars of more than 500 PP stock, and run until, for example, 550 PP for FWD, 530 PP for RWD, 520 for AWD, and 515 PP for MR.

This should account for the performance benefits of MR & 4WD.

Just my ideas.

Also, aerodynamics become a gamechanger at 550 PP.

I like the 500 and 550 PP break points. I am just not a very consistent driver. I can't tell if a 20, 10, and 5 PP difference (for a total 35 PP spread) is too much or too little.

I'll sign on as a constructor.

The only imput I have as far as restrictions would be a suggestion to restrict the drivetrain across the series. I would also suggest that the transmission be adjustable from race to race.

I'll sign up as a constructor, which means I do not race correct? But this could be good for helping my tuning skill, also doesn't if the driver is using a DS3 or a wheel also affect what is a good tune? So maybe we should keep track of that.

Dragonwar233

I'll sign up as a constructor, which means I do not race correct? But this could be good for helping my tuning skill, also doesn't if the driver is using a DS3 or a wheel also affect what is a good tune? So maybe we should keep track of that.

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You can be both if you want. If you are a driver, then you will be driving your own car.

You'll recruit the rest of your team, and yes, I'll post who is DS3 and who is wheel, so you know that when recruitment comes.

I'd be interested in being a constructor for this, would I have to be present at the races in order to be one (Can't get on the TV that late)?

Hey Vol,

Sign me up as a driver.

What about going with a 1100 KG/305 HP limit, kind of a touring car series. Quite a few cars to choose from, and you could do Race or Street or mix it up each week. Just a thought.

cheeb

Jahgee1124

I'd be interested in being a constructor for this, would I have to be present at the races in order to be one (Can't get on the TV that late)?

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Yes, you don't have to be present for the races.

kcheeb

Hey Vol,

Sign me up as a driver.

What about going with a 1100 KG/305 HP limit, kind of a touring car series. Quite a few cars to choose from, and you could do Race or Street or mix it up each week. Just a thought.

cheeb

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I was actually thinking that. I was thinking of FR, 300 HP, and was looking for a weight. I was trying to find clear rules on the GT 300 class or the FIA GT 3 class. Is the 305/1100 from DTM?

I am also looking for the rules on the success ballast. I'd like to add a little for not only finishing, but fastest lap.

What type of controller do you use? And yes, to all the drivers, what type of controller do you use?

Pencil me in as a driver. My schedule may be changing soon, but as of now it looks good. G27 wheel.

Also, why disallow continued tuning/tweaking throughout the season? I want to finish race 1 and tell my constructor "It's a little unstable under braking and the rear end steps out a bit too easy on corner exit." and he be able to fix it before the next race. I think it would keep the constructors interested throughout the season instead of just building the car and being done.

spooble

Pencil me in as a driver. My schedule may be changing soon, but as of now it looks good. G27 wheel.

Also, why disallow continued tuning/tweaking throughout the season? I want to finish race 1 and tell my constructor "It's a little unstable under braking and the rear end steps out a bit too easy on corner exit." and he be able to fix it before the next race. I think it would keep the constructors interested throughout the season instead of just building the car and being done.

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I don't want them to build a new car for each track. And hopefully you'll have some time to test the car out before the series begins.

Though, we may allow changes to cars, but with some penalty. Or maybe we could allow a small percentage of changes penalty free.

I believe the rules are 300 hp but the limiter in GT allows 295 or 305

I use a Fanatec CSR-E and Clubsport Pedals.

It would be interesting to allow a new tune for each track. That doesn't mean different parts, just different settings for the parts already installed on the vehicle. Even if we just allow transmission tuning per track, it could make quite a difference.

Also, if we were to allow a certain percentage of change, what would dictate that? Each slider bar has a different range of adjustment. Anti-roll bars go up to 7, but what about ride height and spring rate?

If we go with single Good Overall Tunes that might challenge Constructors to make the best of what they have, and maybe even sacrifice one area of tuning to improve another. But I do like the idea of communication about the vehicle handling between Driver and Constructor. It would emphasize the feeling of being part of the whole.

Random idea: What if a Constructor/Driver is no longer happy with the team? Perhaps drivers could be fired and hired by another team. Each constructor would be allotted an amount of money to spend on drivers. The cost for a driver would be based on their Average Final Placement from the Sunday races. Miss Devious would be quite expensive. This would mean a constructor couldn't just sweep up the best from each Division. Points could even be earned based on how many positions a driver captures during the race. Some drivers might not be able to do qualify near the top, but they could make up some points by putting the pressure on and making some passes.</Random>

BTW, using a DFGT.

kcheeb

I believe the rules are 300 hp but the limiter in GT allows 295 or 305

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Brilliant, Kaz. Simply brilliant.

BeRandom

It would be interesting to allow a new tune for each track. That doesn't mean different parts, just different settings for the parts already installed on the vehicle. Even if we just allow transmission tuning per track, it could make quite a difference.

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I think we will allow transmission changes per track. That seems pretty harmless, and something there is some consensus around.

If we go with single Good Overall Tunes that might challenge Constructors to make the best of what they have, and maybe even sacrifice one area of tuning to improve another. But I do like the idea of communication about the vehicle handling between Driver and Constructor. It would emphasize the feeling of being part of the whole.

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That would be a good point.

In my mind, I really see it as the tuners building a car. And that car being what is tested. I guess I should look at it the other way. If we allow the tuner to tweak the cars, and possibly even tweak them for each driver, then we are testing the tuner. That is probably what people are after.

Random idea: What if a Constructor/Driver is no longer happy with the team? Perhaps drivers could be fired and hired by another team. Each constructor would be allotted an amount of money to spend on drivers. The cost for a driver would be based on their Average Final Placement from the Sunday races. Miss Devious would be quite expensive. This would mean a constructor couldn't just sweep up the best from each Division. Points could even be earned based on how many positions a driver captures during the race. Some drivers might not be able to do qualify near the top, but they could make up some points by putting the pressure on and making some passes.</Random>

Click to expand...

Oh, yes... must not.... I love this idea. We could either come up with a formula for how much a driver is worth, or simply let the tuners bid on drivers, like an auction. And give them a fixed pot of money, meaning they have to not only hirer drivers, but purchase and build cars.

At that point, I have no problem with the teams running different cars. Again, testing the tuner and his ability to get the most out of the cars.

Mind you, I know I'm a bad driver, and I'd really hate to let someone down.

Anyway, I love this idea, but I imagine it is way too geeky for the community has a whole. I don't want to scare anyone away.

Vol Jbolaz

In my mind, I really see it as the tuners building a car. And that car being what is tested. I guess I should look at it the other way. If we allow the tuner to tweak the cars, and possibly even tweak them for each driver, then we are testing the tuner. That is probably what people are after.



Oh, yes... must not.... I love this idea. We could either come up with a formula for how much a driver is worth, or simply let the tuners bid on drivers, like an auction. And give them a fixed pot of money, meaning they have to not only hirer drivers, but purchase and build cars.

At that point, I have no problem with the teams running different cars. Again, testing the tuner and his ability to get the most out of the cars.

Mind you, I know I'm a bad driver, and I'd really hate to let someone down.

Anyway, I love this idea, but I imagine it is way too geeky for the community has a whole. I don't want to scare anyone away.

Click to expand...

I really like the idea of a set drivetrain configuration and hp/weight limit, and I also like the idea of letting the constructors tune the car for each race/driver. It seems like it would add more challenge to the series. Do want to have adjustable downforce on the cars to add another level of adjustability?

How to do decide a driver's value?

I'd really recommend you stay away from any rating and trading system for drivers. That's an idea for once something like this has gone through a couple seasons and you really have a good gauge on drivers' abolities. Trying to start off with such a system is too subjective, counter-productive, and will most definitely scare people away.

Focus on the core concept behind this series, that's the most important thing to build right, so concentrate on it. And if it is right, then all the other ideas to expand and improve the idea will come naturally and properly.

I mean, I'd like to let the drivers all test the Constructor's car first. Then, each driver can make up their own mind, just by how the cars handle and how the Team (drivers and constructors) fit together.

Final idea; don't rule out a single car, within reason. We have 1000+ cars to work with. Every one of them is a blank canvas for the Constructors; every track a canvas for the drivers.

P.S. That almost sounds like a Series motto!

I'm about to go run through the dealerships, just to see what sorta options we have. Considering my father & I are considering buying an '83 RX-7 project car, I'll stop by the Mazda dealership.

Wardez, that is probably prudent.

For now, for the cars, I'm leaning toward

• FR
• 305 HP
• 1100 Kg
• No more than 50 Kg ballast (so we have another 50 to work with if we want for success ballast)
• No more than 97% engine limiting

All of that is still very flexible.

Well, except the FR and the 50Kg max ballast. I want to keep the drive train simple this season and I want to keep room for success ballast if we need it.

This first season, I say we let the tuners go hog wild and fit anything they want and tune and retune as often as they want. If it gets to be a problem, we'll dial it back for future seasons.

Mel, I think that is a good idea, but I just don't see how it would work fairly. I think there has to be a draft of drivers. Now, before the draft, I don't mind if the drivers get a chance to test the cars and give feedback. That way the constructors know what sort of drivers they are dealing with. But for now, I think, if we tried to match constructors and drivers like in a dating service, we would have people upset with their second or third choice, and drivers like me that become even more of a left over because no constructor really wants them.

I do want to come back, in future seasons, and visit the idea of auctioning for drivers and thus having less money to put into the car. For this season, I'll just keep it simple.

Vol Jbolaz

This first season, I say we let the tuners go hog wild and fit anything they want and tune and retune as often as they want. If it gets to be a problem, we'll dial it back for future seasons.

Mel, I think that is a good idea, but I just don't see how it would work fairly. I think there has to be a draft of drivers. Now, before the draft, I don't mind if the drivers get a chance to test the cars and give feedback. That way the constructors know what sort of drivers they are dealing with. But for now, I think, if we tried to match constructors and drivers like in a dating service, we would have people upset with their second or third choice, and drivers like me that become even more of a left over because no constructor really wants them.

I do want to come back, in future seasons, and visit the idea of auctioning for drivers and thus having less money to put into the car. For this season, I'll just keep it simple.

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Sounds good. Put me down for: avoiding a dating service comparison (hhhooooppppaaaa ) and an RX-7 or 86 GT concept... I just wanna play around with them stock, before really putting money into it, in case you want to keep track of our spending.

But, in that case, the 86GT concept wouldn't fit well... $300,000 just to buy it!!

MrMelancholy15

But, in that case, the 86GT concept wouldn't fit well... $300,000 just to buy it!!

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Like the 450PP tuners club, we should not allow concept or tuner cars.

dabneyd

Like the 450PP tuners club, we should not allow concept or tuner cars.

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And that I'm for, particularly since the production version of the car is available.

Concept cars tend to get torque and downforce numbers that aren't realistic. And tuner cars completely defeat the purpose of this.

Okay, I've been thinking, and I'm going to simplify a bit more for this first season:

We will run for four weeks, and each Tuesday, we will have two 30 to 40 minute long races. We will run reverse grid on the second race, though for races this long, grid doesn't matter that much.

Since the races aren't but so long, we will run damage on light. We will run tire wear, so you may have to pit. We will be running Sports tires.

For this first season, I don't care if two teams run the same car. I don't even really care if a team wants to run different cars (just more work for them).

Each team will need to pick a color and a home course. And I'm kind of looking to the constructors to be the team captains.

As to colors, they need to pick Red, Orange, Yellow, Green, Blue, Purple, White (which will include Silver), and Black (includes dark grays). Every car on that team needs to be painted a different color, but the whole team needs to stay in that color family. Since we don't have a livery editor, this is the best way to tell a team apart and tell drivers apart. So, team Red could have a red, a maroon, a pink, and so on.

We will randomly pick from the home courses to make up our season. Each night, we will run the same course twice. And if two teams want the same home course, or the same color, then we'll randomly pick which team gets it.

The only allowed courses for this first run are GT 5 world or original courses with pit lanes. No user generated courses, and no DLC courses.

And I'm going to disqualify the Nordschleife.