g-25 with supercar challenge

why is this game so hard to control with my g-25 ? every time i put my foot on the gas the back end spins out also when i use the brake in a stright line the car seems to spin out....i have all the assists turned on but it still does it..
i can control the cars far better with the pad. does any one else have this problem

No, just more practice and you'll get there. Maybe you keep forgetting that those are SUPER !!! cars like Ferrari, Pagani, Bugatti Koenigsegg you are driving, not some 4 door saloon car.

Yeah, as opposed to that other game, 'Car Challenge'.

Funny how everybody's got an opinion/complaint about every driving game which adds up to totally confusing/contradictory picture of each game!

IMO, G25 feels great with SCC, although with a little bit of a deadzone, which may make it a little more difficult to drive as fast as with a pad. In addition, according to some pad users, the pad may give some kind of "steering assist".

If you are having problems with the G25, I would suggest it's most likely because you haven't got used to the unique feel of SCC's FFB yet. Most G25 users really like the feel of SCC with a good FFB wheel, but it may take you a little while to get used to it if you're used to GT5P or other racing games. Also, SCC's physics put more emphasis on weight-transfer, which means you have to think more about the momentum of the car.

Simple advice: brake early, don't slam on the brakes, stabilize the car before getting entering the corner, & don't floor the throttle too aggressively exiting the apex.

steve30b

why is this game so hard to control with my g-25 ? every time i put my foot on the gas the back end spins out also when i use the brake in a stright line the car seems to spin out....i have all the assists turned on but it still does it..
i can control the cars far better with the pad. does any one else have this problem

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Steve, i think the problem you're having under braking is that you have to try and brake in a straight line, if you're weaving or steering through a corner etc you will end up all over the place, it's quite realistic in that respect.

I think it takes a certain feel for correct braking with the pedals, you have to really get used to that. much easier with a pad in my opinion, still not really sure which is faster though?

thanks for your replys (i just need to get more practice)...

wheel is just as fast as the pad.. there are many players up to speed with the wheel.... it just takes practice,, after all practice makes perfect..

It's funny, just yesterday I switched the FFB from full to medium with my G25 and I think i'm noticeably faster. I was able to run 2:12's at Spa in the DBR9 pretty consistently, which was something I definitely found harder to do before. Now that I think of it, the FFB being at full really is a bit exagerated in Supercar Challenge. You still feel everything at medium but you don't have to fight the wheel so much. FFB at medium in SCC is what the FFB in GT5 should be like.

Try it on LOW. That's my setting and I love it.

I came from HIGH initially, because that was - still is - my setting in FC.

In that game, anything else then HIGH would give you a big deadzone problem.

And ... HIGH in SCC is a lot stronger (I even think clearly exagerated) than HIGH in FC.

chilledant

wheel is just as fast as the pad..

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I forgot Chillie, WHICH wheel are you using again?

Having spent about 10 hours playing the GT5TTD & then going back to SCC, two things strike me:

1) Compared to GT5TTD, there is a lot of deadzone "wobbliness" in the steering with my G25, particularly with a fast but "loose" car like the 512S. For those who do not have a wheel, let me explain what it feels like this way: travelling at speed on a straight you can move the wheel several degrees from centre in either direction & the car does not respond at all. When you enter a corner the FFB tells you where the cars wheels are pointing & where the limits of grip are - no real problem here. When you hit a chicane, or sequence of corners which obliges you to turn the wheel quickly from one direction to another, the wheel travels through the "deadzone" & for a second you can't tell where exactly the wheels are pointing. This makes it very hard to stick to a precise line through a corner & in this sense it's quite unlike GT5P/TTD where, although the FFB is rather weak, the response from the wheel is very consistent & precise.

2) In spite of the occasional vagueness of the steering, or perhaps, partly because of it, driving in SCC is just way more visceral & exciting than in GT55/TTD, where the driving has a detached & almost mathematical quality to it. Driving fast in SCC with a wheel it feels like you're are always on the edge & living dangerously, whereas it GT5P/TTD you don't really feel you're on the edge, until you're over that edge & understeering or oversteering out of control. There are people running very fast times with the current TT, but it's fairly clear that they're putting in 20, 30, 40 hours, perhaps even more, in order to arrive at those times. I would be prepeared to bet that nobody has ever put in anything close to that amount of time perfecting a single lap, in one car, on one track in FC or SCC.

Looking at the national & global leaderboards for GT5TTD, I think it's clear that wheel users have an advantage - with so many thousands of times recorded & probably millions of laps run, there is a definite pattern emerging. On the other hand, in SCC there are so few people recording lap times, & the times are being set with far less time & effort dedicated, so it is harder to draw any definite conclusions. However, I'm pretty sure that if there were tens of thousands of times recorded in SCC, you would eventually see a pattern emerging where the fastest times were overwhelming being set with pads rather than wheels - the exact opposite of what's happening with the GT leaderboards.

Biggles

Having spent about 10 hours playing the GT5TTD & then going back to SCC, two things strike me:

2) In spite of the occasional vagueness of the steering, or perhaps, partly because of it, driving in SCC is just way more visceral & exciting than in GT55/TTD, where the driving has a detached & almost mathematical quality to it. Driving fast in SCC with a wheel it feels like you're are always on the edge & living dangerously, whereas it GT5P/TTD you don't really feel you're on the edge, until you're over that edge & understeering or oversteering out of control. There are people running very fast times with the current TT, but it's fairly clear that they're putting in 20, 30, 40 hours, perhaps even more, in order to arrive at those times. I would be prepeared to bet that nobody has ever put in anything close to that amount of time perfecting a single lap, in one car, on one track in FC or SCC.

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I agree, your 'seat of your pants' description was a good one for how SCC feels when you're on a flyer, and GT5D is comparitively dull in that sense. However, I've found placing the car in SCC to be rather imprecise compared to GT5D. When you arrive at a corner in SCC you're first of all managing the braking instability, then you tip the car in and continue to manage the weight transfer as you're going through the corner. Although the pedal work requires a lot of precision, I think the steering is more akin to a waiter trying to keep all the drinks on the tray in the middle of an earthquake. This may be the most realistic interpretation of driving on the limit, but a lot of satisfaction can also be derived from the precision needed in GT5D for all the turn in points.

For example, in F1 CE, you don't have to worry about braking instability or weight transfer at all, leaving you to focus purely on the perfect braking points, perfect turn in points and perfect acceleration points - precision. SCC on the other hand makes you work so hard just to control the car and keep it on the black stuff when going at speed (at least with all the aids off) that the type of precision required in F1 CE to go really fast will never be found. GT5D seems to be a half-way house between the two. Put it this way, in GT5D your steering is like Jenson Button's but in SCC it's more like Kazuki Nakajima's, at least this is how I've found it.

Yes Shaggy, it's hard to even compare F1CE, since the cars are so different, but it does seem like it's all about precise timing & quick reflexes. The cars in F1CE hug the road like they're stuck with glue - it's like there are no physics involved at all, until suddenly #%$*! the car spins out & you're screwed. Learning to drive fast in F1CE is learning to identify the spin-out limit & how to take the car to that limit without crossing it. The sound, the intense speed, the bumpy visuals, the bumpy FFB, & the terminal damage make F1CE very immersive & exciting (not to mention the very tough AI). I do wish F1CE had a little more weight in the FFB under cornering though (like SCC), I think that would help give a sense of the tremendous G-forces experienced in RL F1 racing.

Biggles

There are people running very fast times with the current TT, but it's fairly clear that they're putting in 20, 30, 40 hours, perhaps even more, in order to arrive at those times. I would be prepeared to bet that nobody has ever put in anything close to that amount of time perfecting a single lap, in one car, on one track in FC or SCC.

Looking at the national & global leaderboards for GT5TTD, I think it's clear that wheel users have an advantage...On the other hand, in SCC there are so few people recording lap times, & the times are being set with far less time & effort dedicated, so it is harder to draw any definite conclusions.

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The fastest laptimes are not done by spending so many hours practicing, in my opinion. Anyone capable of doing anything above a good lap will probably get within a couple of seconds after maybe 20 laps. And after that, maybe another 20 laps to fine tune and get within half a second. For that final half second, the top people may be spending a couple of hours, or maybe a bit more.

Personally, I spent an hour on the first night, then maybe another 40 minutes the second day, and after that there was no way I was going to improve by more than a tenth or two (unless the pad throttle-curve magically changed...). But my overall point is, spending 20 - 40+ hours (aggregate) is not going to find so much extra time; a fast time will be found quite early, and beyond that only a few tenths knocked off, in my opinion.

Although in saying that, GT does seem to be quite finickity about varying ways in which the car handles at different times; the way time can be lost (or found) with very little change in input. SCC (and every other single sim I've ever played) is much more flowing - when you make a mistake, you lose as much time as you think you should, and a lap is as good as you think it is. With GT, a tiny change with a particular line or something, and you can find more time than seems realistic. It's one of the first things I noticed in the early Prologue demo, with the Ferrari at that 'Rally' circuit (which is not rally at all).

The fastest laptimes are not done by spending so many hours practicing, in my opinion. Anyone capable of doing anything above a good lap will probably get within a couple of seconds after maybe 20 laps. And after that, maybe another 20 laps to fine tune and get within half a second. For that final half second, the top people may be spending a couple of hours, or maybe a bit more.

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I would agree that 20 laps gets you an appropriate time for your level, & a further 20 laps will probably allow you to knock another half second off your time. My third session gained me a further 3 10ths with each car. I'm not sure how much more time I want to spend, but when you're 2 seconds behind the top times you tend to feel that it must be possible for you to do better!

I'm pretty sure that the top guys are spending many, many hours at the GT5TT, but by that point they are only gaining hundredths of a second. However, the leaderboards are getting so tight, a few hundredths can move you up quite a few places & some of these guys are determined to finish as high as they possibly can. The thing is, by that point the driving becomes pretty unrealistic, because you're micro-managing the lap to a degree that I suspect doesn't happen IRL.

I don't know how it is with the pad, but with a wheel I don't think SCC lends itself to that degree of micro-managing, because the steering just isn't precise enough. It's more important to get more of an "organic" flow going through the sequence of corners.

The other big difference I notice is that in GT5TTD it's necessary to be constantly on the brake or on the throttle (sometimes both at the same time), in order to force the car to the fastest lap time. In SCC, on many corners, I spend a significant amount of time coasting the car - usually just after heavy braking in order to rebalance the car. I don't claim to be an expert on RL racing, but in most RL racing videos I watch, the drivers also seem to spend time off the brake & the throttle. Perhaps some one else can comment on this?

jjaisli

I forgot Chillie, WHICH wheel are you using again?

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the GT25/27 pad bro.. lol....

Biggles

I'm pretty sure that the top guys are spending many, many hours at the GT5TT, but by that point they are only gaining hundredths of a second.

I don't know how it is with the pad, but with a wheel I don't think SCC lends itself to that degree of micro-managing, because the steering just isn't precise enough.

The other big difference I notice is that in GT5TTD it's necessary to be constantly on the brake or on the throttle (sometimes both at the same time), in order to force the car to the fastest lap time. In SCC, on many corners, I spend a significant amount of time coasting the car - usually just after heavy braking in order to rebalance the car. I don't claim to be an expert on RL racing, but in most RL racing videos I watch, the drivers also seem to spend time off the brake & the throttle. Perhaps some one else can comment on this?

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Three points!

With the first point, then logically that is agreeing with what I said previously - a fast time is found early, and beyond that, the hours are spent finding a few tenths (or hundredths).

I'm glad you mention the "micro-managing" thing; that's exactly what I'm talking about, and have noticed for a while with GT - although I'm more talking about how easily large amounts of time is found/lost.

The third point - I think the best way normally is to coast as little time as possible; use the throttle as soon after braking as possible, even if slightly. I think when you say "seem to spend time off brake & throttle", it's quite likely they're doing <30% throttle/brakes, and it's just not audible. Although I suppose it does depend hugely on the car/type of series.

And it's very interesting to mention using brakes and throttle at the same time. Have a look at the attached picture; this is telemetry from Ferrari at Silverstone with Schumacher and Barrichello. Barrichello (amazingly!) does right-foot braking, and is arguably at a disadvantage. But have a look at the way Schumacher uses the throttle. Kind of relentless!

Alan, I am definitely more of a Barrichello than a Schumacher! From my poll I see that about 70% of wheel users in GT5TTD are using left-foot braking rather than right-foot braking. I'm sure that many younger sim-racers actually start "driving" on their sim set-ups, in which case it would be natural to start left-foot braking. It's hard to throw away decades of RL driving habit, however. I'm not sure how you have your pad set up - are you able to use the throttle & brake at the same time?

As far as the lap times are concerned, you are, I believe, off the fastest pace by a second or so? You are blaming part of that, at least, on the limitations of the pad vs. the wheel, & quite likely you're correct. If, like many people, you are using a wheel, there's nothing you can blame but your own inadequacy, so people keep plugging away trying to pick up the extra time somewhere, somehow. I think there's a sense that at some point, if only by chance, you're going to put in a lap where everything falls together (perhaps you use a radically different line or braking points) & you magically pick up an extra second or so. But it doesn't seem to happen that way - & mostly you just end up scraping a couple of 10ths off your time.

As far as coasting is concerned, I wonder to what degree other SCC wheel users are spending time off the throttle/brakes? To me it seems necessary, because heavy braking tends to unbalance the car (which doesn't seem to happen to the same extent in GT). One striking example of this for me is at Mugello at turn 6 (Casanova!). My own observation (based on onboard video) of RL racing seems to show drivers coasting at certain corners , but it IS difficult to tell for sure if they are totally off the throttle or just, as you say, reduced throttle.

Biggles

I'm not sure how you have your pad set up - are you able to use the throttle & brake at the same time?

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I have steering on left analogue stick, throttle/brakes on right stick (up/down), gears on L1/R1, handbrake on circle (handbrake is "handy" for 333SP around tight hairpins! Although I believe this is called "Emergency Brake" in US, or maybe US & Canada?). So I can't do throttle and brakes together.

Biggles

As far as the lap times are concerned, you are, I believe, off the fastest pace by a second or so? You are blaming part of that, at least, on the limitations of the pad vs. the wheel, & quite likely you're correct.

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My tuned time is 1:37.0 and normal time is 1.49.3. So both times are around 1.5 slower than some of the fastest times. I've no bother about not being near the top, even if using a wheel! I feel there's always someone who can do better, or put more time in. And I'm very satisfied with my pad laps!

There's no question that the throttle problem for pad users is very costly. At a conservative estimate, I'd say I'm losing at least 1 second for each car (particularly for the Normal car). But you know, it's more than that - it's not as simple as like a straight line disadvantage, or pure cornering-grip disadvantage. It's something which forces you to change your style and lines (as MHailwood referred to "squaring" corners), which firstly slows you down, and secondly with this particular problem, it makes it very, very difficult to be consistent on corner exit. And you don't just lose time exiting the corner, but the whole way down following straights.

I've compared my laps to fast wheel laps. I can keep in touch on every single corner under braking, corner entry, mid-corner. But as soon as you need to put the gas down, it's just fraught with trouble for pad users. Even looking at Kazunouri's own laps, exiting every corner he's on that 70-90% throttle and carrying good speed out (and still manages to be slower than me by lap-end).

Biggles

As far as coasting is concerned, I wonder to what degree other SCC wheel users are spending time off the throttle/brakes? To me it seems necessary, because heavy braking tends to unbalance the car (which doesn't seem to happen to the same extent in GT). One striking example of this for me is at Mugello at turn 6 (Casanova!). My own observation (based on onboard video) of RL racing seems to show drivers coasting at certain corners , but it IS difficult to tell for sure if they are totally off the throttle or just, as you say, reduced throttle.

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This is why pad users may have an advantage when using car setups; by putting the rear ride height way up - it can be very unstable under braking, but pads have the auto-correction which kicks in, and that definitely helps. Although you're asking about wheel users, I'll just mention what I do is use the throttle to help the balance. Depending on the corner, the weight may shift forward under braking, so getting on the power after turning in may help to transfer weight to the rear, helping reduce the oversteer. But I wouldn't put much faith in SCC's implementation of this kind of physics!

Alan_G

Barrichello (amazingly!) does right-foot braking, and is arguably at a disadvantage.

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That's right, and he still does to this day. I was astounded when I read that recently - surely that alone is worth a tenth or two you would have thought?

I feel a left-foot braking racer would be more likely to be quicker than a right-foot braking one. In saying that, he's done it for so long and it must suit an F1-style of driving. For me, Barrichello is definitely the only team-mate of Schumacher who ever really gave him a run. Schumi seemed to comfortably beat Letho, Verstappen, Herbert and Massa (Brundle was a bit closer). But I remember several race weekends when Schumi just couldn't touch Barrichello, particularly in 2002. So he finds a way to do it!

Well, I don't want to drag this further off topic than it already is, but I think you'll find that the times (2000~2005) that Barrichello was closest to Schumacher directly coincided with how good the car was. When the car was head and shoulders above the the rest of the field and a comparatively "easy" car to drive, Barrichello ran Schumacher close. When the car was off the pace and a comparatively difficult car to drive, such as in 2003 & 2005, he trailed Schumacher in practice times, race pace, fastest laps and points but a MUCH larger margin. And I think it was just a matter of Schumacher being able to pull much more potential out of tricky car compared to Rubens (or just about anybody else for that matter). His pace in the 1995 Benetton Renault, which both Alesi and Burger found so difficult to drive during post season testing or the ridiculously large gap between himself and say, Herbert for example is further evidence of this. And that in my opinion is part of what made Schumacher so special.

Anyway, there have been many times when I wanted to use left foot braking. During TT lapping, I figured, all things being equal, I could be easily losing .2~.3 per lap just by shifting my foot. But I have my G25 pedals off set on my playseat rig to make it easier to use the clutch. A few times I tried to experiment with it but it's too much trouble to shift the pedals back and forth so 99% of the time I'm a traditional right foot braker.

Anyway, there have been many times when I wanted to use left foot braking. During TT lapping, I figured, all things being equal, I could be easily losing .2~.3 per lap just by shifting my foot. But I have my G25 pedals off set on my playseat rig to make it easier to use the clutch. A few times I tried to experiment with it but it's too much trouble to shift the pedals back and forth so 99% of the time I'm a traditional right foot braker.

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I did go to the trouble of shifting my G25 pedals over to try LFB. I could immediately see the potential for faster lap times, as it allows you to balance the car using the brake & throttle at the same time, not to mention the time lost just shifting your foot from the throttle to the brake & back. However, I just don't have the braking sensitivity with my left foot & it became obvious that it would take some considerable amount of time to achieve this. In the meantime, it made the driving very enervating ... so I switched back.

I did a few online SCC races with Estadios this evening. He has always used a pad, and within the last few days (possibly today) got a G27 (I know this topic title is about G25, but I think the purpose can be a bit more general).

He was struggling! The first race was with himself and Manunza - 348TB at Mugello. I was very surprised to see him fall so far behind, because I knew he was always faster than that. Manunza actually beat him at the end of the 5 laps (and Manunza also beat my fastest lap, which was quite a handy lap too!). We did a second race; Mont Tremblant with the almighty, pure racing machine (no) - 612 Sessanta. Similar result.

Later, just the two of us did 3 laps with McLaren F1 at Nurburgring. He retired on the 3rd lap, and sent a message in the text chat - "HELP!", and then I found out why he was struggling!

As has been mentioned before in various places, the big difference is keeping control of the car. I followed him around Silverstone National (my usual test track!) for a couple of laps. When he had the car under control around corners, there's no question we had the same raw grip/cornering ability (of the car). But it was in all the places where pad users can safely throw it around that he was losing control.

For example; turn 2 at that circuit. Even with a pad it can be quite unstable. But you never spin with a pad unless you go much to fast into it. Normally what happens when arriving too fast is, around the left hand part which is also the braking zone, the pad just understeers (rather, corrected oversteer - sliding) torwards the apex of the right-hander. To avoid this just requires more careful braking with the pad. But if any instability occurs, this auto-correction thing kicks in; as I always say, not enough to completely save the car, but the crucial point is that it happens immediately, which makes it too easy.

He said he was struggling with the throttle. But I think this is just down to experience. I notice Mario and Jeff always match or beat me coming out of tight hairpins. So probably having a much greater range of movement makes it easier to have the accuracy to find the amount you need.

Whilst following him, the most striking thing was how he struggled controlling it on straights, and flat-out curves (like Woodcote). It really gave an impression that with a wheel, you are much more at one with the positioning of the car; more effort is required at all times to position of the car.

With a pad, straights are not like a children's bowling lane with cushioned sides - you do have to concentrate at all times or you're on the grass. But changing the direction and position of the car is a lot less absolute; you can tip/tap at maximum left/right to straighten up the car. And something which I was thinking about (...getting annoyed about!) was this kind of swaying/floating of the steering, noticeable mostly on straights, and more so with some cars than others. The CCX is a good example - on straights, if you tip left for example to straighten up a bit, the car direction changes left a bit, but then it automatically steers a tiny bit right (and sometimes a further, smaller left movement to follow). So in effect what this does it make small steering inputs with the pad more like overall car-positioning inputs (In GT [or any proper sim] with a pad [or wheel obviously], if you want to move away from grass on a straight, you tip to steer one way, and then tip the other to straighten up. SCC kind of does this automatically with a pad).

So to conclude! Using wheels such as G25/G27 can be as fast (or nearly) as a pad, but takes much more care to arrive at the speed. There's no doubt SCC is a much greater experience with a wheel, and in the near future I'm sure I'll get together a wheel setup. But it really raises the question why they have tweaked the pad handling to make it so easy, when all this will do it put it even further away from a wheel performance. In the planning for this game (and FC - it originated from here) it would be known that wheel and pad users will compete against each other. So by giving such attention (too much, and bad attention) to pad users, perhaps it shows a bit of disregard for where wheel users will be at with FC/SCC.

I don't usually brag about using the wheel and how difficult it is, etc. because in the end I still think that a good, skilled, wheel driver can match a good, skilled, pad driver. PiotrB taught us all that lesson in FC.

I have also seen good, skilled, pad drivers, people I used to battle for position, go completely backwards when changing to a wheel, and neve recovering their speed again. Biggles calls this the "RS Syndrome" referring to RSRacer, because that's exactly what happened to him. As far as I know, RSRacer has in fact given up completely on FC/SCC, because he just couldn't get back to the pad after using the wheel, but he never got to be competitive with the wheel. Go figure ... I just hope that doesn't happen with Estadios (meaning, either he gets competitive with the wheel, or he goes back to the pad, but not that he also quits in frustration).

In the end, it's a trade-off. With a wheel you have to be at your best or all your racing night can look like a nightmare. I'm sure Jeff and Biggles know what I'm talking about.

However, there is no possible comparison between wheel and pad in what concerns the pure pleasure you get from the experience of playing FC and SCC. Quite ironic, that the games that give you the best and rawest (hope this word exists) "wheel-experience", are also the games that punish you the most for that same experience.

PM - Still curious about Henrik's experience in all this. I know he keeps switching from wheel to pad to wheel again but he never told us anything about what he thinks about it or what are the consequences of using the wheel to his competitiveness.

Mo two cents on these... limited, I know, due to my average poor driving skill and to the fact I don't use the G25/27 wheel, but the DFP (which I think that, beside those 2 and the fanatec, still is the best wheel on the market).

I think that the difference between pad vs. wheel is definitively there. How big is it, will depende from person to person. I have no doubt that those who race with a wheel since a long time now (Mario, Jeff?), can keep up and eventually beat the fastest pad drivers. Those who just had come to the wheel, no matter how fast they were with it (Estadios), most likely will ever get to it. From pad to wheel, you will be slower... but if you're doing it the other way round... you'll improve!

I take my hat off to those manage to win races on wheel: the effort and concentration demanded are incredily higher in this game compared to the pad. Alan's post reflects this from a third point of view perfectly: on pad you just need very slighty twear from your fingers to get the car in control... on the wheel it's a constant coordination between mind, eyes, arms and feet...just to keep the car in-line.

FWIW, yesterday I went practicing for Sunday's event on the most hateful track ever drawned by human hand (VIR) on the 365GTS/4. I suck even more on this track, no matter what car or control I use (pad or wheel).

Done a few laps firstly on pad... my best and kept it consistent was 1:50'ish. To the wheel. My best effort (and underline EFFORT) as 2 laps on high 1:51'ish. Went back to the pad and after 2/3 laps, I was getting laps in 1:48'ish/1:49'ish.

I love to use the wheel on racing games, and love the feedback that SCC gives you... so much fun... but to do on offline time trials...

Online with other people no way I'm able to keep up that pace. I from what I've read from other people, most likely they'll never get to their previous level on wheel.

I think there's no question that it takes a considerable amount of time to adjust from one controller to another - weeks, not hours- so it's not reasonable to expect Estadios to be up to speed after a few hours.

However, I'm not sure Alan's interpretation is quite correct. I can't comment on whether there is an actual "assist" for the pad, but I can say there's definitely a lack of precision with the wheel. There's a "dead-zone" of a few degrees with a G25 that means anytime the wheel rotates through the central axis, you're not quite sure where exactly the wheels are pointing.

This can be experienced, to some extent, at many points on every circuit. An example would be the first corner at Mugello, where you want the car's tires to be right on the left-hand curb as you approach the corner. Because of the play in the wheel, it's easy, accidentally, to come in a little & lose the best line, or (much worse), slip the wheels over the curb & lose control of the car. The effect is most pronounced at fast chicanes - like the second chicane at Monza , or the last chicane at Montreal - where the wheel swings through the central axis 3 times - it's very hard to feel exactly where the car is pointing as you negotiate the corner, which makes it easy to lose contrtol, or at least lose time. In this sense, it is quite unlike GT5P, where the wheel inputs are very, almost mathematically, precise.

All this sounds like it would make SCC terrible with a wheel, but in fact it is very enjoyable. This is because the slight vagueness of the steering adds to the excitement, unpredictability & sense of "danger", which (presumably) is a big part of RL racing, & which (for me) is lacking in GT, with it's very precise & somewhat clinical physics & presentation. Combined with the more physical feel of the FFB, the stronger sense of weight transfer & the necessity to correctly time gear-shifting, it makes racing in SCC a more physically demanding (& satisfying) experience compared to the more detached, cerebral experience of driving in GT5P.

Biggles

However, I'm not sure Alan's interpretation is quite correct. I can't comment on whether there is an actual "assist" for the pad

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I think that I dare to agree with Alan, that there is assistance for the pad. But for me, it seems to be most obvious in braking. (of course, I still only have the demo (for this assistance reason)). But I've been driving now for about 3 months only with DFGT. GT5, SSV8, Dirt2, GT5TTD, Rally Trophy on PC and so on. Zero pad driving, but I used to drive with the pad. This week I run a quick test on the SCC demo. Of course it was hard to get used to the physics and times weren't fast, but they are comparable between each other. I drove 9 laps on Nurb with DBR9 first with DFGT, then 9 laps with pad, then again 9 laps with the wheel. Fastest times were 2:00:2x, 1:57:0x and 1:58:5x. I didn't see the need to drive another 9 laps with a pad, after I couldn't match the times even close with more laps on the wheel... I could shave off from both times with more laps, but I think that actually I could shave off more from pad time. Biggest problems were in the first corner, with pad you can keep pushing brake, it's like there is ABS on all the time. Wheel felt similar when I did put ABS on 1. With ABS off, you have to be supercarefull in braking but with pad it's not necessary. I encourage all the wheel users to test the pad, even though you might feel it awkward, but just to see the difference on the behavior of the car.

PS. I've done similar tests on SSV8 and GT5, and in these games I'm faster with the wheel.

I'm yet on doubtful about that so-called pad assist: is it really an assist or is it simply the fact that you can control the car better and quicker than with the wheel?

In my opinion, fact is that pad is always faster than the wheel (with the same driver). I trully think that does who play solely with the wheel would improve their times with the pad (after the adaptation period). The other way around I doubt.

But, nevertheless, I agree with biggles... you'll enjoy it much more with the wheel.