automatic transmissions

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analog

analog

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Hi there, you may not know me since I only registered today but there is a subject I would like to hear your opinion about and since I couldn't find an existing thread which touches upon this subject I took the liberty of creating my own.
If such a thread however already exist you will probably let me know and then I'm sorry for filling up this space.

First up, this is meant as a suggestion for GT6 or DLC for GT5, as for now I would be content if GT5 was nothing more than Prologue with more cars and more tracks since the waiting game is increasingly getting on my nerves, as like most of you, I was expecting to be already playing it by now.....

What I would like to see is automatic transmissions, proper automatic transmissions with functioning kickdown, etc.
When I'm driving/racing in Prologue ( or any GT-game ) I always use manual, but when I'm driving for instance the Merc SL55 AMG, which is only available as an automatic in real life, the automatic in-game option doesn't replicate the real experience in my view.
It basically is manual shifting itself ( yes that's automatic but you know what I mean).

I'm suggesting something similar what Polyphony ( or is it now Postphony?) created with Tourist Trophy whereby you could have manual/auto for all bikes but where the scooters were always automatic( in manual) just like in real life.
There were cars which were only available with auto such as the Citroen GT and some concept-cars in GT4 but these were basically cars with one long single gear.

My proposal would be that when you're buying a car you can specify auto/manual transmission just like you choose colour and such, but if a car is only available in real life with either manual or auto, you will only be able to switch transmissions if they were available in the tuning shop ( so a fully tuned 800+BHP SL55AMG with custom short gear six-speed, etc.).

There should however still be the current manual/auto option like there is the option for standard or pro physics, because there will always be people who only drive automatic, just like there will always be people who put ketchup on any meal.
And this is my point really, I like ketchup on my hotdog but not on my pancakes.
Just like I prefer to drive my digital sports/racecars manual and my digital luxo-barges or big GT/SUV/whatever with a fully fledged automatic.

Hopes this makes sense, please discuss.....
 
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Do you mean Automatic transmission option not revving fully and if your not on full gas as such it would change gears at a lower RPM, if thats what you mean, yeah I would like that too :)
 
^GT5 will have a lot more content than prologue, don't worry but analog I do agree with your idea and it would add realism and fun if the autos behaved like they did in real life. Also the cars in GT4 with one long gear had CVT transmissions and that is waht they are meant to be like and finally the Citroen GT concept in Prologue was hydrgen/electric powered so it only had one gear!!
 
Yes, I know that the Citroen was meant to have some sort of hybrid system and I also am aware that CVT is basically one continually changing gear, I mainly used them as examples that it is possible to include autos in a manual selected game, I only hope that in the future other types of automatic transmission will also be faithfully reproduced.
 
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It would add to the realism but its not really what you want when your racing. When you lift off the accelerator at the end of the straight a normal auto would go into a high economical gear, wheras in a race your actually about to slow down and drop a gear or two..

I do agree that cars that are auto only IRL are only drivable as autos until you go to the tuning shop and buy a manual gearbox of some sort
 
Scoop2004
It would add to the realism but its not really what you want when your racing. When you lift off the accelerator at the end of the straight a normal auto would go into a high economical gear, wheras in a race your actually about to slow down and drop a gear or two..
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That is not true, sure most cars would, but not all. My brothers CLK55 AMG has a AUTO (with sequential) but once in AUTO mode, if you lift your foot quickly, the gear will not change to a higher or lower gear, it will stay the same untill you break or accelerate more. Besides, GT5 could make AUTO more realistically, but who would use it? I would hate the ECONOMY DRIVE lol, going only 30MPH and allready in 5th gear? NO THX. On other hand, some cars you can only get in AUTO with no sport options, so these cars should have realistic auto modes.
 
Something like whats in my (well my dads but) A6 Le Mans, its a normal auto but paddle override can be done at anytime, I think that would be quite fun.
 
I agree with your point about it not being very usefull when your racing but automatics are generally useless for racing, hence the fact that 99,999 percent of all racecars are manual, but I still think it would be nice to have them included in what is still rightfully called the real driving simulator.
If you, like me, not only looking forward to racing but also the thrill of just driving all the TBA exotics and also the plain ordinary cars, I would like them to be as accurate as possible, warts and all if you know what i mean.
Plus the automatics on most modern performance cars have pre-selected Sports and Economic menus which transforms throttle response and speed of downshifting, but to include those is perhaps asking too much......
 
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I agree with this but should you be able to choose manual gear selection on a car only available in automatic? And would the transmission choices maybe become a bit confusing for some?
 
I never understood why most cars driven with an automatic transmission behaved like it had manual transmission shifting gears by itself but then again there were cars that only had a "D" gear when choosing AT. I seem to recall seeing this in GT4.
 
All the gearboxes should be realistic.

In the case of having a manual car, the auto 'mode' should equate to having the game shift your manual gears for you, much like the ABS, ASM and TCS should be.
 
In most games I dont see the "auto transmission" option as actually being an auto transmission, its simple automatical gear changing in a manual trans.

I would like realistic auto transmissions, but to be honest I dont really care that much. Each auto behaves slightly different and they'd have to model every car to get it right. Only the cars that have purely an auto in real life and no option for a manual at all I think they should bother trying to model. Cars which in real life have the option between auto and manual, just model the manual trans and leave the auto as auto shifting of the manual rather than a proper auto trans.
 
Many cars now have semi-auto transmissions of which there are different kinds and in general automatic transmission behavior can vary widely.

There is not one specific "automatic transmission feel" that could be added.

It would certainly add a lot more realism to model the stock transmission behavior in each car but could get really complicated really fast.

I am fine with the "AI controlled manual" as it doesn't feel that horrible even if not incredibly realistic.

analog
I agree with your point about it not being very usefull when your racing but automatics are generally useless for racing, hence the fact that 99,999 percent of all racecars are manual,
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That's not exactly true. Many racecars now use semi-auto transmissions.
 
analog
Hi there, you may not know me since i only registered today but there is a subject i would like to hear your opinion about and since i couldn't find an existing thread which touches upon this subject i took the liberty of creating my own.
If such a thread however already exist you will probably let me know and then i'm sorry for filling up this space.

First up, this is meant as a suggestion for GT6 or DLC for GT5, as for now i would be content if GT5 was nothing more than Prologue with more cars and more tracks since the waiting game is increasingly getting on my nerves, as like most of you, i was expecting to be already playing it by now.....

What i would like to see is automatic transmissions, proper automatic transmissions with functioning kickdown, etc.
When i'm driving/racing in Prologue( or any GT-game )i always use manual, but when i'm driving for instance the Merc SL55 AMG, which is only available as an automatic in real life, the automatic in-game option doesn't replicate the real experience in my view.
It basically is manual shifting itself( yes that's automatic but you know what i mean)

I'm suggesting something similar what Polyphony( or is it now Postphony?)created with Tourist Trophy whereby you could have manual/auto for all bikes but where the scooters were always automatic( in manual) just like in real life.
There were cars which were only available with auto such as the Citroen GT and some concept-cars in GT4 but these were basically cars with one long single gear.

My proposal would be that when you're buying a car you can specify auto/manual transmission just like you choose colour and such, but if a car is only available in real life with either manual or auto, you will only be able to switch transmissions if they were available in the tuning shop( so a fully tuned 800+BHP SL55AMG with custom short gear six-speed, etc.).

There should however still be the current manual/auto option like there is the option for standard or pro physics, because there will always be people who only drive automatic, just like there will always be people who put ketchup on any meal.
And this is my point really, i like ketchup on my hotdog but not on my pancakes.
Just like i prefer to drive my digital sports/racecars manual and my digital luxo-barges or big GT/SUV/whatever with a fully fledged automatic.

Hopes this makes sense, please discuss.....
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Actually, what you requesting is called "automatic gear box" which I never heard is implemented in any simulator (neither PC nor consoles). It is much more complicated than what is used in games.

The term "Automatic Transmission" is used usually with games which is kind of a manual transmission but the computer decide when to switch gears instead of the driver and it only depends on current rev and direction of rev change (accel or brake). Basically it has works as follows: Each gear has an up limit and down limit, with 2 near gears are overlapping each other (e.g. 2nd gear is defined as 70 low & 130 high, while 3rd gear defined low as 100 & high as 170). When driving, the game always check the current speed (or rev limit - in a similar way) and change the gears just by the above table no matter how much gas or brake is currently used.
 
Stonemonkey
I agree with this but should you be able to choose manual gear selection on a car only available in automatic? And would the transmission choices maybe become a bit confusing for some?
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No, my point was that if you selected manual for all cars, the cars only available as automatic should only be driven as automatic unless you went to the tuning shop and converted the car to manual by buying a custom gearbox.

That's not exactly true. Many racecars now use semi-auto transmissions.[/QUOTE]

I think what you mean is that many racecars have paddleshift instead of a gearlever, often those racecars have a sequential(like a motorbike) normal( manual ) gearbox which is electronically controlled.

yossigab
Actually, what you requesting is called "automatic gear box" which I never heard is implemented in any simulator (neither PC nor consoles). It is much more complicated than what is used in games.

The term "Automatic Transmission" is used usually with games which is kind of a manual transmission but the computer decide when to switch gears instead of the driver and it only depends on current rev and direction of rev change (accel or brake). Basically it has works as follows: Each gear has an up limit and down limit, with 2 near gears are overlapping each other (e.g. 2nd gear is defined as 70 low & 130 high, while 3rd gear defined low as 100 & high as 170). When driving, the game always check the current speed (or rev limit - in a similar way) and change the gears just by the above table no matter how much gas or brake is currently used.
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The term automatic transmission is not only used in the gaming world, it is widely used in the automotive world and beyond.
Automatic transmission and automatic gearbox are the same basically, transmission is the term most used because an automatic strictly hasn't got gears, please don't ask me to become too technical (because i'm not) but i agree that it isn't common in racing games mostly because those games in general only feature racing cars ( which are mainly manual ).
The Gran Turismo-series differentiated itself from the start by offering not only hardcore racecars but the whole spectre of automotive history from
mediocre hatchbacks all the way to Le Mans-racers and everything inbetween.
They were allways faithfully recreated except for automatic "gear box", for instance the US muscle cars or Jensen Interceptor in GT4 had a 3 speed gearbox standard, which is correct as those cars had in real life 3 speed automatic transmissions but weren't behaving like autos.
Maybe it is indeed too complicated to create all the variations of auto for what is perhaps only a small portion of GT-users who actually care.
But i think that a gearbox manual or auto is one of the defining elements of a cars character and the way it is driven, much more so than requesting rear reverse lights or skidmarks, to name a few, in my opinion.
 
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Unless you fiddle about with the clutch and h-shifter on G25, even the manual boxes aren't actually manual - they're sequential/ semi-auto too.

Autos I find unusable in the game cos they always seem to shift into the wrong gear at exactly the point where you aren't desperately seeking a sudden loss of torque.
 
WolfRacer543
Each auto behaves slightly different and they'd have to model every car to get it right. Only the cars that have purely an auto in real life and no option for a manual at all I think they should bother trying to model. Cars which in real life have the option between auto and manual, just model the manual trans and leave the auto as auto shifting of the manual rather than a proper auto trans.
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I think I agree with that. Perhaps it is too hard as you've got CVT autos (like on the DAFs in the 70s), CVT with artificial "steps" added (like on some Fords and Nissans), traditional torque-converter autos (I don't know, Volvo 144), DSG style (as available on some SEATs, Audis etc.), semi-automatic (SMT MR2, Ferrari...). As has been said almost every implementation within my list is done slightly differently by each manufacturer, an old Peugeot 309 auto I owned had an "intelligent" torque-converter which was supposed to hang on to gears longer if it sensed you were driving with verve.

Having said which I'd be very impressed if GT5 tried something a little more realistic!
 
P3nT4gR4m
Unless you fiddle about with the clutch and h-shifter on G25, even the manual boxes aren't actually manual - they're sequential/ semi-auto too.

Autos I find unusable in the game cos they always seem to shift into the wrong gear at exactly the point where you aren't desperately seeking a sudden loss of torque.
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Yes, you're right, i also use the standard controller and it is sequential purely because it lacks an H-gate but still i would like to drive some cars with auto if they included a kickdown function whereby you release and blip the throttle in quick succession to force a downshift.

It still wouldn't perhaps be ideal for quick laps and be quite frustrating when you're in a close race, but it would add to the variety of the game as a whole.
You wouldn't enter a 24 hour race along La Sarthe in a Model T but it was nice that car was included in GT4 amongst many other types of vehicles which all fullfilled different things to different people.
 
Yeah, I know what you mean. I once spent a whole weekend at Infineon, trying to setup the Jay Leno tank car into something drivable.
 
Sounds like a good Idea, it's realistic anyway. I think if the auto gearbox was made too realistic though, the people who only use auto might not like there being such a big difference in performance.
 
even without realistic performance differences the average manual driver will beat the average auto driver 150 times out of 10. So what do they have to moan about?
 
Human nature innit. You hand out free gold ingots to enough people and eventually one will complain about theirs.
 
eight6er
Sounds like a good Idea, it's realistic anyway. I think if the auto gearbox was made too realistic though, the people who only use auto might not like there being such a big difference in performance.
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Yes you're probably right about that, but maybe you could only offer the realistic auto option only if you choose manual as the basic option.
If you always drive auto as the basic option you wouldn't even notice or care much for the more realistic option i suppose.
 
analog
Yes you're probably right about that, but maybe you could only offer the realistic auto option only if you choose manual as the basic option.
If you always drive auto as the basic option you wouldn't even notice or care much for the more realistic option i suppose.
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Yes I think some option like this would work. Maybe if you pick simulation physics you get the realistic auto and normal physics gets the standard one.
Either way im sure some people would like it, even just as a novelty.
 
P3nT4gR4m
Human nature innit. You hand out free gold ingots to enough people and eventually one will complain about theirs.
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Well if you are handing them out to everyone the value would go down, so yeah, of course someone would complain. The first person cashed theirs in for a house, the last person cashed it in for $5 because that's all it was worth by the end of it :p
 
eight6er
Yes I think some option like this would work. Maybe if you pick simulation physics you get the realistic auto and normal physics gets the standard one.
Either way im sure some people would like it, even just as a novelty.
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Yes, something like seperating by physics makes sense, but in my opinion it is more than just a novelty.
It changes, i think, the whole driving experience in the same way as adapting your driving style to either FWD/RWD/AWD.
I used the example of the SL55 AMG because in the current auto/manual set-up you are much faster if you use manual ( which doesn't quite feel right ), especially down shifting is only achieved in auto if you slam the brakes or release the throttle and let it roll.
It would change completely if you had kickdown, it might still be slower than manual ( hence the option i put forward for a custom manual ) but it would make a lot of cars driveable in the way they were intended IRL.
Imagine it the other way around, being only able to drive some IRL manual cars properly fast as automatic, everybody, myself included, would be complaining.
 
I see what you mean, but I was thinking for some people it would only be a novelty which they try out a few times. Like damage to me, I will try it out a few times and probably turn it off. I'm not saying these things have any less place in the game, just some people will take different features more seriously than others.
 
eight6er
I see what you mean, but I was thinking for some people it would only be a novelty which they try out a few times. Like damage to me, I will try it out a few times and probably turn it off. I'm not saying these things have any less place in the game, just some people will take different features more seriously than others.
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I am aware that there is probably only a small minority who might be interested in a more accurate recreation of automatics, hence the fact i couldn't find an existing thread which deals with it.

But if it was to be included in some way, i do think it should be permanent in the same way i think damage should be permanent.
By which i mean it should not be possible to turn it off, at least on pro/simulation psysics.
I know that GT should cater for a wide audience and that most would find my proposal totally irrelevant, therefor you should allways be able to also play it as an arcade with or without damage, etc.

For most people visiting this site, i think, the simulation part plays the most important role ( at least for me it does ) and although we all have different wishes and find some features more or less important, i still think that on a simulation level a accurately functioning auto adds more to the total experience than, say, skidmarks or functioning reverse lights.
 

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