Pirelli Tire Testing Controversy (Split from 2013 Monaco Thread)

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Mercedes referred to International Tribunal over tyre test row
By Glenn Freeman Wednesday, June 5th 2013, 20:53 GMT

Mercedes will face an investigation from the FIA's International Tribunal regarding its recent secret tyre test with Pirelli, while Ferrari has been cleared for its test with a 2011 car.

The Mercedes test at Barcelona was referred to the stewards of the Monaco Grand Prix when Red Bull and Ferrari lodged a protest on that weekend.

The FIA had been waiting for a report from the Monaco stewards before deciding if Mercedes had a case to answer, and it has decided to pass the matter on to the International Tribunal.

The sport's governing body explained that it requested information from those involved and rival teams before coming to its conclusion.

Ferrari's own test with Pirelli, conducted at Barcelona in April with a 2011 car, was deemed not to breach the rules.

An FIA statement said: "In the light of all the replies received and in view of the information gathered during this inquiry, the president of the FIA, acting as the FIA prosecuting body, has decided:

"To close the case as regard to Scuderia Ferrari Team considering that its participation in a tyre test organised by Pirelli in Barcelona on 23-24 April 2013 using for this purpose a 2011 car is not deemed to contravene the applicable FIA rules.

"To bring the case concerning the tyre testing session carried out by Pirelli and Team Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 in Barcelona on 15-17 May 2013 before the FIA International Tribunal because it results from the inquiry that the conditions of this testing may constitute a breach of the applicable FIA rules.

"The FIA International Tribunal is called upon to make a decision in compliance with the FIA Judicial and Disciplinary Rules."

THE FULL STATEMENT FROM THE FIA

The Monaco Grand Prix Stewards raised in their report to the FIA an issue concerning a tyre testing session carried out by Pirelli with the participation of Team Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 in Barcelona on 15-17 May 2013[1].

The FIA requested clarifications from Pirelli and Team Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 in this respect.

The FIA also asked questions to Scuderia Ferrari Team, which took part in a tyre test with Pirelli in Barcelona on 23-24 April 2013.

The FIA requested all the other F1 Teams to provide the FIA with information they may have regarding any tests carried out by Pirelli during the 2013 season.

In the light of all the replies received and in view of the information gathered during this inquiry, the President of the FIA, acting as the FIA prosecuting body, has decided:

* To close the case as regard to Scuderia Ferrari Team considering that its participation in a tyre test organized by Pirelli in Barcelona on 23-24 April 2013 using for this purpose a 2011 car is not deemed to contravene the applicable FIA rules.

* To bring the case concerning the tyre testing session carried out by Pirelli and Team Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 in Barcelona on 15-17 May 2013 before the FIA International Tribunal because it results from the inquiry that the conditions of this testing may constitute a breach of the applicable FIA rules.

The FIA International Tribunal is called upon to make a decision in compliance with the FIA Judicial and Disciplinary Rules.

[1] The Stewards' report follows the protests made by Red Bull Racing and Scuderia Ferrari Team on the occasion of the Monaco Grand Prix against Mercedes AMG Petronas F1 concerning its participation in the Barcelona tests (15-17 May 2013).
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http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/107882

The process means the tribunal won't be heard until at least after the German GP in July.

Moderator's Note: This thread was budded off of the 2013 Formula 1 Grand Prix De Monaco thread.
 
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Samus
Perhaps Ferrari weren't coming on as strong because they did a test as well, albeit with the 2011 car which they believe is ok. It seems there is a lot of people whose hatred of Red Bull means they can't look at things objectively. Red Bull are perfectly entitled to kick up a stink about this just as any other team has done in the past for potential rule breaches.
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I'm fine with RBR, but it becomes obvious that they are seeing a way to hopefully oust a team or two from the points this year. Too bad for them Ferrari are in the clear and don't have to worry about the tribunal. Also to be honest, and here is the Irony that entitles people to call them the sports biggest complainer is the fact that if RBR stopped trying to get the rules to bend around them, Pirelli wouldn't have gone to extremes. We see this before Spain even due to the Ferrari test that happened before that GP. Thus the influence of RBR and others like Bernie obviously are pressuring Pirelli to try and fine a solution.

So it's quite funny, Pirelli only did this due to the greatest outcry of all from RBR, and then when Pirelli try to fix it...RBR yell even louder due to Merc using a 2013 car and also not being invited. They also shout out at Ferrari too for that last part which is being invited but not RBR. The problem is that you say they have the right, so they have the right to "do as I say, not as I do". Thus we can cheat or bend rules, but the rest of you should never do it. And trust me I've said it on other boards that Ferrari are also in the wrong for somewhat yelling after we've seen their rule bending history.
 
Exactly, all teams bend the rules, or at least try to, and when they're found out, the other teams will cry foul, even if it's something they've done or tried themselves. That is just the nature of F1 politics. If you're not winning do everything possible to get there.
 
Samus
Exactly, all teams bend the rules, or at least try to, and when they're found out, the other teams will cry foul, even if it's something they've done or tried themselves. That is just the nature of F1 politics. If you're not winning do everything possible to get there.
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I guess that's why everyone else is just making a passing comment and moving on with life, allowing the FIA to do what is needed. I know how it works, does it make it right? Does it even make it necessary? No, not really and people have an objective point in calling out any team that practices such hypocrisy under the guise of "F1 politics".
 
All the top teams are hypocrites though. Red Bull aren't doing anything McLaren or Ferrari haven't done in the past or will in the future.
 
I've said it before and I've said it again. I've had reliable motorsport and ex-F1 personell consistently say to me every team cheats. ALL the time. They just never get caught. No matter if it's ride height, fuel samples, flexible aero, etc. It's always happening.
 
Alex.
I've said it before and I've said it again. I've had reliable motorsport and ex-F1 personell consistently say to me every team cheats. ALL the time. They just never get caught. No matter if it's ride height, fuel samples, flexible aero, etc. It's always happening.
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I don't think you need any inside sources to know that, but yeah.

I just think LMS is letting his support of Mercedes and hatred of red Bull cloud his judgement here. I'm no fan of Red Bull but I don't see how what they're doing is any different to what any other team has done before.
 
This is why I am slowly beginning to hate F1


That and the fact Justin Bieber is "Performing" at Singapore :(
 
Samus
They have gigs at a lot of F1 shows, they're never seen on the TV coverage.
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But… Justin. Bieber.

Grosjean and Perez have their chance to become heroes.

Attack him!
 
They've had concerts every year at Singapore, with the likes of Beyonce, Katy Perry and even Rick Astley.

Obviously, Rick Astley is better than Bieber, but still... :D
 
niky
They've had concerts every year at Singapore, with the likes of Beyonce, Katy Perry and even Rick Astley.

Obviously, Rick Astley is better than Bieber, but still... :D
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I now dislike Singapore GP… :)
 
I love the politics in Formula One...

Red Bull is being extremely vocal about the "secret" tyre test Mercedes had with Pirelli. Do you remember last year? We had a mid-season test at Mugello. Remember what Adrian Newey said about that?
http://www.formula1.com/news/headlines/2012/5/13332.html

Q: How important to both of you was that Mugello test? For instance, Sam, your race drivers didn’t take part in it, whereas Adrian, your race drivers did. How important was it?
SM: From our point of view it was interesting because we used it to get correlation. All of our testing is to do with correlation now. It’s not to dial in the last little bit of the setup. And by running our two test drivers there we get a straight back-to-back with the guys that do the majority of the running in our simulator. So, that’s quite important for us to verify all of our models. I think the test itself, personally, I think you could do without it. I think it’s a lot of energy and expense during the season that we probably don’t need. Of course McLaren will gain a lot out of that test but Formula One is all relative, so all we really did was spend a load of money. And did we really shift relative to Red Bull or Ferrari or Mercedes and the people who we’re competing against? I don’t think so.

Q: Adrian, do you feel the same way?
AN: I think we learnt the pasta in Italy is still the best in the world and that’s about it really. I’d agree with what Sam says. To me, yes you go to the test because it’s available. We didn’t learn anything… relatively speaking. I think Sam’s point is valid. We all spent money but the value of in-season testing has to be questionable.
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So, yeah...
 
Samus
I don't think you need any inside sources to know that, but yeah.

I just think LMS is letting his support of Mercedes and hatred of red Bull cloud his judgement here. I'm no fan of Red Bull but I don't see how what they're doing is any different to what any other team has done before.
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Once again, I don't have a hate for RBR. My point was that RBR were mad about the tires due to not winning, then slammed the only group that could fix them (Pirelli), then Vettel turns around and gets mad at Pirelli not bring the tires to Canada anyway for full time, and claiming safety is at stake. However, the canvas has been changed to Kevlar for safety, just not a full blown or hybrid compound that he and RBR would like. I give Merc credit because they blame themselves for the tire issues, not the source.

So they want it both ways, and that's the issue, no other team is doing this at the moment. I've had issue with any team that doesn't want to race and hopes a PR campaign will help them corner a WDC or WCC.

So please expand on how I have this hatred that before this post was unknown to myself. Perhaps your the bias one, and thus me saying anything critical and objective toward RBR leads you to this naïve notion of hate. Also I've been pretty critical of Merc GP as well, and from my comments if you've ever read them. I'm surprised you're not calling me a Ferrari fan at this point, due to being much more accepting of their criticism.

Centura
I love the politics in Formula One...

Red Bull is being extremely vocal about the "secret" tyre test Mercedes had with Pirelli. Do you remember last year? We had a mid-season test at Mugello. Remember what Adrian Newey said about that?


So, yeah...
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Clearly you hate RBR:dopey:
 
Look all i'm trying to say is Red Bull lodging a complaint and kicking up a stink against the team that is currently beating them is not new in F1.

I'm not going to say any more on the subject because we're just going in circles.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
Once again, I don't have a hate for RBR. My point was that RBR were mad about the tires due to not winning, then slammed the only group that could fix them (Pirelli), then Vettel turns around and gets mad at Pirelli not bring the tires to Canada anyway for full time, and claiming safety is at stake. However, the canvas has been changed to Kevlar for safety, just not a full blown or hybrid compound that he and RBR would like. I give Merc credit because they blame themselves for the tire issues, not the source.

So they want it both ways, and that's the issue, no other team is doing this at the moment. I've had issue with any team that doesn't want to race and hopes a PR campaign will help them corner a WDC or WCC.

So please expand on how I have this hatred that before this post was unknown to myself. Perhaps your the bias one, and thus me saying anything critical and objective toward RBR leads you to this naïve notion of hate. Also I've been pretty critical of Merc GP as well, and from my comments if you've ever read them. I'm surprised you're not calling me a Ferrari fan at this point, due to being much more accepting of their criticism.
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Sebastian is trying to put pressure on the change. Pirelli can't change the tyres unless they get agreement from teams or if tyres are declared to be unsafe by FIA and Pirelli.



Most things as usual about tyres, even front wing updates to stop tyre marbles getting stuck in wing :lol:.
 
Centura
I love the politics in Formula One...

Red Bull is being extremely vocal about the "secret" tyre test Mercedes had with Pirelli. Do you remember last year? We had a mid-season test at Mugello. Remember what Adrian Newey said about that?


So, yeah...
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There is a difference between a public test involving all of the teams and a secret test involving only one team. Its not hard to work out why Red Bull might not be fussed in one instance but they are about the other.
I think Red Bull (and the other teams) have every right to be complaining, it has nothing to do with in-season testing but the fact this was very under-handed as well as giving a definite advantage to another team.

Not to mention this involved Pirelli trying different experimental compounds. The Mugello test had no such benefits for any of the teams.

It is not hypocrisy.
 
Ardius
There is a difference between a public test involving all of the teams and a secret test involving only one team. Its not hard to work out why Red Bull might not be fussed in one instance but they are about the other.
I think Red Bull (and the other teams) have every right to be complaining, it has nothing to do with in-season testing but the fact this was very under-handed as well as giving a definite advantage to another team.

Not to mention this involved Pirelli trying different experimental compounds. The Mugello test had no such benefits for any of the teams.

It is not hypocrisy.
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Of course they have every right to complain and they should. The situation that have developed with the "secret" test is unacceptable and unfair.

Last year, Red Bull said they learned nothing from a three-day test, yet they say that Mercedes learned a lot from a three-day test. I think that's hypocrisy. I realize that it's more about politics (making Mercedes advantage from test look bigger than it really is), but it also makes them sounds like hypocrites, in my opinion.
 
I would guess they only said that because it was a Pirelli tyre test primarily and the biggest issue Mercedes have is with tyre wear.
 
Centura
Last year, Red Bull said they learned nothing from a three-day test, yet they say that Mercedes learned a lot from a three-day test. I think that's hypocrisy. I realize that it's more about politics (making Mercedes advantage from test look bigger than it really is), but it also makes them sounds like hypocrites, in my opinion.
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The difference is that its a 3-day secret test with a tyre supplier, not a 3-day test involving all teams with the same tyres.
Potentially Mercedes could have learned how to fix their car and/or what the future Pirelli tyres will be like. This is extremely valuable information that wouldn't have been available in an ordinary public test.
 
Centura
Nope. RBR is my favorite team and Vettel is my favorite driver.

I just wanted to point out that they are a bunch of hypocrites sometimes.
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I know I was being sarcastic, and happy that someone else said it other than me.

Ardius
The difference is that its a 3-day secret test with a tyre supplier, not a 3-day test involving all teams with the same tyres.
Potentially Mercedes could have learned how to fix their car and/or what the future Pirelli tyres will be like. This is extremely valuable information that wouldn't have been available in an ordinary public test.
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That would make sense if the tire is being used currently, but it isn't so yes it is a hypocrisy. However, unless you can prove that Merc GP have truly benefited to the degree that RBR quantify it at, please show us. How does one learn to fix a car on tires that aren't the same compound currently used? We all know that a slight change in compound could hurt the car more or make it better, hence why some cars are worse on softer tires while others improve even more. The only true issue I see is the fact that if these tires come to use next year as the spec 2014, then Merc gp have an advantage others don't. Yet we don't even know if Pirelli will be the supplier next year.

Also how could Merc GP learn to fix the car? Let's hypothesis that they used the current 2013 spec tires. From what Newey said last year such test do nothing really to shed light. Thus what could Merc learn with their current car on current tires, that RBR and others didn't at Mugello, hence the hypocrisy of such outcry to an extent.
 
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This really should be in a separate thread (mods?) now as its probably going to be discussed for quite a while yet but its naive to think Mercedes didn't gain any advantage from this test.
If Mercedes didn't gain any significant advantage, why did they go as far as having the drivers use un-painted helmets and keeping it so quiet?

Seeing as this test was a direct test with Pirelli, where Pirelli are looking for feedback on new tyres, its pretty obvious they are going to be looking for and reacting to the driver's feedback. As the test involves the current car and current drivers, its obvious that the current problems with the car will be brought up and there is nothing to stop them experimenting with many things (be that tyres, setup, aero, engine maps, gear ratios, driving styles, etc etc). If you can experiment, you can find fixes big or small.

Its been brought up about teams swapping rear tyres left to right to achieve different characteristics - perhaps something that was found from this very test. Something that could be used to then win a grand prix.

Again, it seems you guys are unable to see the difference between a group test session involving all or many teams all using the standard tyres and a private 1-to-1 test with a tyre manufacturer using experimental tyres.
 
Ardius
Its been brought up about teams swapping rear tyres left to right to achieve different characteristics - perhaps something that was found from this very test. Something that could be used to then win a grand prix.

Again, it seems you guys are unable to see the difference between a group test session involving all or many teams all using the standard tyres and a private 1-to-1 test with a tyre manufacturer using experimental tyres.
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Mercedes have been doing that since Australia, like many other teams.

Of course Mercedes gained an advantage by doing this three-day test, but it's arguable how big or small.

Anyway, it looks like I can't make my point clear enough, so I'll call it a day on this now.
 
Separate topic created. I know the first post wasn't the first post on this subtopic, but I didn't feel like cutting a zillion posts out that were interspersed with posts not on topic. I feared boardmageddon.
 
Ardius
This really should be in a separate thread (mods?) now as its probably going to be discussed for quite a while yet but its naive to think Mercedes didn't gain any advantage from this test.
If Mercedes didn't gain any significant advantage, why did they go as far as having the drivers use un-painted helmets and keeping it so quiet?
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From the info I've seen and the pictures, I haven't seen nor heard anything about the helmets if you could please supply a source. And no one is saying Merc didn't get anything. I just spelled it out in plain English for you, that people would be hard pressed to prove that such a test gave Merc the advantage RBR seem to think they do. Once again, it isn't Merc GPs job to inform all the other teams that Pirelli are conducting a test with them. The only group that should be aware of this is the FIA, yet if they didn't specify to Pirelli and just assumed they would ask for a official to be there...the FIA are far too optimistic.

Seeing as this test was a direct test with Pirelli, where Pirelli are looking for feedback on new tyres, its pretty obvious they are going to be looking for and reacting to the driver's feedback. As the test involves the current car and current drivers, its obvious that the current problems with the car will be brought up and there is nothing to stop them experimenting with many things (be that tyres, setup, aero, engine maps, gear ratios, driving styles, etc etc). If you can experiment, you can find fixes big or small.
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So what you're saying is, that Merc GP had time with in the few days from being asked to testing to build the parts for not only the GP, but the test that no one was aware of. Bring them to the track under the nose of the FIA that approves them, and test them without witness? Then still have to worry about the FIA approving them either way for later on GPs...wow amazing:drool:. Setup is always tested, it's called FP1, FP2 and even FP3 and it falls in line with everything else that you expanded into sub examples that are just part of the main setup. Thus you didn't need to say engine maps (parts of setup), gear ratios (part of setup), aero (part of setup). I already explained why your idea of tires fails the smell test. Also driving setup really???

Its been brought up about teams swapping rear tyres left to right to achieve different characteristics - perhaps something that was found from this very test. Something that could be used to then win a grand prix.
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Rear tire swaps isn't new to the test that Merc GP just did, and even if it was that still doesn't change it being 2014 spec tires.

Again, it seems you guys are unable to see the difference between a group test session involving all or many teams all using the standard tyres and a private 1-to-1 test with a tyre manufacturer using experimental tyres.
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Actually you seem to be the one that is troubled by that difference, you seem to think (at least from what you type), that Merc GP on experimental tires that more than likely function different from the 2013 spec will exponentially help Mercedes Benz. While at other times you take a step back and say "small or big"...so which one do you believe?
 
Eddie Jordan mentioned that apparently the drivers used plain helmets.

I'm only going to re-state everything I just did, and if you want sources to back it up, then you'll have to find the introduction BBC coverage to the Canadian GP qualifying as that is where this very topic was discussed in some detail by Eddie Jordan, David Coulthard and Gary Anderson. All of whom were saying what I just said.

Maybe Merc hadn't tried the rear tyre swaps until Pirelli tried doing it in the test, I don't know. That was only an example of what can be done in a 1-to-1 test where you can try things.
Sure you can try things in a practice session. But a practice session is no where near 1000km and involves 10 other teams on track. And it doesn't include special 1-to-1 communication with a tyre manufacturer.

I don't see any inconsistency in my saying "big or small" - it's a fact. You go testing and you might not find anything out. You might find a huge revelation or you might only find a few small tweaks. The point is the potential is there to find bigger and more effective fixes to your problems when you have extra testing and even more so when you have a track to yourself and a tyre manufacturer on hand who is getting directly involved in the testing.

Anyway, whether Mercedes get penalised or not, its really about Pirelli. Pirelli have no contract for next year and pulling a stunt like this may well jeopardise that. Perhaps they can argue that they had to, in order to design better tyres but it puts a few people in a difficult position. Certainly the other 10 teams don't sound impressed. The problem is, is there any other tyre supplier willing to jump in? And if so, are they really going to get enough time?
 

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