Hey, here's an idea, let's all write to Top Gear about Enthusia!

I did!

letters.tgmag@bbc.co.uk

Me

Hello, I am a Car buff first, and an American second, I apologize about the American bit, but let's not dwell on it.

I feel that there is a great injustice being done to the video gamers of the world.

Gran Turismo 4 is not the top of the heap on the PS2/Console Sim crowd.

They haven't pushed the limits of their physics engine since Gran Turismo 2 debuted years ago, and a new kid has popped up to dethrone them.

Konami has released what is, quite possibly, the best driving/racing sim game you've never heard of, Enthusia Professional Racing.

It is, to put it simply, fabulous.

I saw the NSX vs NSX bit at Laguna Seca, and some things stand out to me after having played EPR. The way the NSX moved around the track in real life, the way the springs load up, the weight transfer, the way the front end moves into corners.

Gran Turismo 4 does not replicate this well, nor does it replicate what happens when you exceed the limits of adhesion, an act which I am quite certain you are familiar with, and which even has a sport, Drifting.

The problem is this, Gran Turismo 4 has something like an on/off switch for it's tire physics, so you are either grip driving, or drifting sideways, with no transition between.


Wait you say, that's absurd, tires don't just miraculously grab hold and fling you off the road when you're in full opposite lock at 100 kph sliding around a corner. Well in GT4 they do.


So please, I beg of you, do us all a favor, get a Logitech Driving Force Pro (cheap on Ebay, you know), and find a copy of Enthusia Professional Racing.

Heck, I will send you a memory card with a game save on it if you don't care to unlock everything yourself, though you'd be depriving yourself I think.

Play the game, drive one of the cars that is in all three games, like say, that Honda NSX, and let's see what you folks think is the true "ultimate driving simulator".

Did I mention you can rig up a second cheapo steering wheel/pedal set to use the Gas Pedal as a bonafide honest to god Clutch Pedal in Enthusia? Where's the Clutch in GT4?

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Maybe we can get those crazy Top Gear people to get some attention to this game...

You know, like the attention it deserves?

I wish I could agree, but alas, Enthusia is not all it's cracked up to be... Visually the physics may look spot on, but if you have ever raced in real life, you will quickly see it's flaws... I have been playing Enthusia since it was released, and I enjoyed the game very much... However, there are some serious problems with the physics engine, which they will probably address in the next installment... I have also seen the Top Gear episode you mentioned... I agree it was not the best paring, but I do not think Enthusia would have provided the tools to achieve a better time...

Enthusia is a good game...

GT4 is a good game...

Neither is realistic enough to compare with real life...

All I'm saying is, don't get ahead of yourself... Enthusia is better than GT in some ways, and much worse in others... They both have something good to offer, yet neither should be the benchmark for simulation, in my opinion...

Not a better time, just a more accurate one.

I too recognize that EPR isn't perfect physics wise, but it is a dramatic improvement over the GT2-GT3-GT4 rehash we've been fed like happy little buddhist cows.

With the wheel, EPR makes GT4 feel absurd, especially with the "Ultimate Driving Simulator" claim.

I think we would all benefit from Enthusia getting more praise for it's physics, and hoping PD looks at what Konami did right before they just redo the GT4 physics engine which is a proven seller.

Frankly the idea of playing GT4 with 300 more cars, 40 more tracks, a pretty cool damage model, a new C-Spec mode where you don't even have to turn the game on, it just starts out at 100% completion for you, and a freshened version of the GT2-GT3-GT4 physics engine doesn't appeal to me.

Delphic Reason

I wish I could agree, but alas, Enthusia is not all it's cracked up to be... Visually the physics may look spot on, but if you have ever raced in real life, you will quickly see it's flaws... I have been playing Enthusia since it was released, and I enjoyed the game very much... However, there are some serious problems with the physics engine, which they will probably address in the next installment... I have also seen the Top Gear episode you mentioned... I agree it was not the best paring, but I do not think Enthusia would have provided the tools to achieve a better time...

Enthusia is a good game...

GT4 is a good game...

Neither is realistic enough to compare with real life...

All I'm saying is, don't get ahead of yourself... Enthusia is better than GT in some ways, and much worse in others... They both have something good to offer, yet neither should be the benchmark for simulation, in my opinion...

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I'm curious! What were these problems you were addressing? Could you enlighten me? Thanks!👍

its only going to be tested physics wise in top gear, and using only that, i don't see how gt4 is better or equal to enthusia, if gt4 deserves a chance, enthusia surely does as well.

Am I the only person who thinks that this is just utterly pointless? I mean, why exactly? It's a car show, they look at cars, the GT4 thing was a one off. One day they may do another article, but considering no one in the UK plays Enthusia (I know of no one who owns it), it's irrelevant.

Your letter sounded like a "beggy" sales pitch, and ended up sounding pretty naff.

"Oh please top gear, please please"

Oh and both games are hardly perfect anyway, you could have at least directed them to a proper sim, such as GT Legends.

My idea is to NOT write to Top Gear mentioning bloody games, you will only sound dumb. If you wanna mention games, say something along the lines of:

"how about's an article on the show, looking at recent computer games (not just one) and comparing them to the real life thing"

That would sound less stupid, and be a heap more interesting then an article just on Enthusia.

Lets see, they've been going on about GT4 several times now.

(the Ruf CTR license test, a Nurburgring challenge, and now the Laguna Seca NSX NSX thing)

It's a damn shame that GT4 is getting all this attention when it's not as good of a driving sim as EPR is, for the console. Nevermind that PC's have better sims, I and most others can't afford a gaming pc.

Actually, funnily enough, I did email them a couple of weeks ago and said that it would have been interesting to see Jeremy using a Driving Force Pro first and also that it would have been interesting to see him try Enthusia (although obviously it would have to be Tsukuba if he was going to do a track run on the same track in RL and in the game).

I think the most interesting thing, as mentioned somewhat rudely above, might be to have him do some sort of a comparison test. Top Gear has access to some nifty cars--do a comparison between Enthusia, GT4 & RL on one of those high end cars they're always thrashing about. Or have The Stig give his opinion!

One thing I do like better with EPR is the Touge course (Dragon Range). Those are the best headlight effects I have ever seen in a racing game. Coupled with the physics engine & a DFP pro, it really does feel like driving in the dead of the night on a mountain course (makes you wanna look out for deers before roaring through a corner...) I do know that Top Gear may not care that much about video game race sims, but i really think they should try it. I'm no racer, but I am a driver, and replicating a car in a video game is still an awesome topic for petrol heads.

heavyboots

Or have The Stig give his opinion!

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The Stig doesn’t have an opinion.

@Delphic Reason: EPR isn't perfect, but it's far closer than GT4 could ever hope to be. What we really need is a game with Live for Speed's physics, and licensed cars/tracks like EPR/GT4.

@code_kev: 1. You don't have to be a jackass. Onikaze knows, just like any other EPR fan, that the game hasn't nearly gotten the attention it deserves, and came up with an idea to possibly change that.
2. GT Legends is great, but driving-model-wise all it really has going for it compared to Enthusia is better suspension movement. Not to mention JC might not even have a racing-sim-capable PC, much less the majority of BBC viewers.

@Onikaze: On the other hand, I agree with code_kev, to a point. Your plea for them to review Enthusia did come off as begging, and was rather over-positive at parts. A bit too much drama.

Blake

The Stig doesn’t have an opinion.

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In the 1500-Quid-Porsches contest and the Cheap-Cars-That-Aren't-Porsches contest, he did. Although, he expressed it with body motions rather than words. I remember him raising one hand in disgust when driving the old Jag around the alpine course.

Delphic Reason

Enthusia is a good game...

GT4 is a good game...

Neither is realistic enough to compare with real life...

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THANK YOU! Some people try to put Enthusia on a pedestal which is much too high. Just because it's harder to drive in Enthusia doesn't make it a better simulator. Some aspects of their physics engine are genuinely baffling. Grip seems to be non-existant at times, and all the cars have a tendency toward oversteer, when their real-life counterparts are supposed to exhibit understeer. I like Enthusia, but it isn't the cat's meow of driving simulation any more than GT4 is.

kylehnat

THANK YOU! Some people try to put Enthusia on a pedestal which is much too high. Just because it's harder to drive in Enthusia doesn't make it a better simulator. Some aspects of their physics engine are genuinely baffling. Grip seems to be non-existant at times, and all the cars have a tendency toward oversteer, when their real-life counterparts are supposed to exhibit understeer. I like Enthusia, but it isn't the cat's meow of driving simulation any more than GT4 is.

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Sorry, but that sentence there voided everything following it.

I can't speak for the rest of the EPR fans here, but Enthusia is 10 times easier for me to play than GT4. It's also 10 times more fun. If you're having so much trouble, maybe it's too realistic for you.

If Enthusia is put on a pedestal, it's a lot shorter and smaller than the one given to GT4.

kylehnat

THANK YOU! Some people try to put Enthusia on a pedestal which is much too high. Just because it's harder to drive in Enthusia doesn't make it a better simulator. Some aspects of their physics engine are genuinely baffling. Grip seems to be non-existant at times, and all the cars have a tendency toward oversteer, when their real-life counterparts are supposed to exhibit understeer. I like Enthusia, but it isn't the cat's meow of driving simulation any more than GT4 is.

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In GT4 you can press the brake to adjust the angle of your turn & this is uberly wrong in Real Life. When you brake during a turn, you understeer. Even if you're racing or drifting, the engine is wrong.

Uh, I find lots of cars that exhibit understeer in EPR.

I think the problem is that the Oversteer which should be present in GT4 isn't there at all, so when you play EPR it's like "ZOMG! The cars, they nevah stop slidin!"

Onikaze

Lets see, they've been going on about GT4 several times now.

(the Ruf CTR license test, a Nurburgring challenge, and now the Laguna Seca NSX NSX thing)

It's a damn shame that GT4 is getting all this attention when it's not as good of a driving sim as EPR is, for the console. Nevermind that PC's have better sims, I and most others can't afford a gaming pc.

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I think you may find that the CTR licence was in EVO magazine and the Nurburgring challenge was in CAR magazine, neither of which is Top Gear.

Just thought I would mention it.

BTW I know Wolfe knows I'm going to say this.

I quite agree with Delphic Reason, neither GT4 nor EPR are 100% correct as far as the Physics go and both have strengths and weakness'.

Both sims should be pushing each other forward, getting better each and every version.

Mr Deap

In GT4 you can press the brake to adjust the angle of your turn & this is uberly wrong in Real Life. When you brake during a turn, you understeer. Even if you're racing or drifting, the engine is wrong.

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Sorry but that is not always the case, if you brake during a turn you will understeer if it results in the front tyres slip angle exceeding the rear tyres slip angle. Its not a 100% certainty, using the brakes to play with the cars weight distribution can load the grip on the front tyres and unload the rears resulting in an oversteer tendancy, very commonly using in FWD racing such as teh BTCC or Clio Cup.

If it is true that braking during a turn always creates understeer and does not adjust the yaw of a car then how do you explain left-foot braking reducing understeer? A very well established and commonly used racing and performance driving technique.


Regards

Scaff

My main goal is to get more attention for EPR, so it doesn't get written off entirely, and hopefully the other Sim console makers take notice.

As it stands they see Forza with it's simcadulation sell wonderfully, GT4 with it's "real enough" physics making bank, and EPR with it's "too real to be fun" bombing...that doesn't bode well for the next gen sim titles.

Onikaze

My main goal is to get more attention for EPR, so it doesn't get written off entirely, and hopefully the other Sim console makers take notice.

As it stands they see Forza with it's simcadulation sell wonderfully, GT4 with it's "real enough" physics making bank, and EPR with it's "too real to be fun" bombing...that doesn't bode well for the next gen sim titles.

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I quite agree that EPR does deserve more attention than its been getting, however its hardly been marketed well by Konami and to be honest the main thing that puts me off is not the physics model (which is not 100% correct) but the game structure and layout.

The reviews certain sims get from some areas of the gaming press do not help either, Forza and GT4 will be allowed to get away with a lot due to polish and presentation, sims such as EPR and Richard Burns Rally get hammered by people who have little to no understanding of the subject they are writing about. Heres a good example of what I mean in regard to RBR

RBR review by an idiot

I have said it before, but areas that really suck (non physics wise), are also going to be the areas that put a lot of people who try the game (maybe renting at first) off. Navigation, presentation and progression really suck in EPR; and lets be fair these are areas that could have been done a hell of a lot better.

I would personally hesitate to say that EPR's physics are too real to be fun, but as with GT4 they do exagerate certain areas and downplay others, its just they do it in different areas. I'd still rather have either of them that Forza (can't believe I bought an X-box for it - oh well at least PGR2 and RSC2 are fun arcade racers).

Regards

Scaff

The main thing that pleases me in EPR is the tire physics, and suspension loading.

GT4 has that nasty on/off grip transition which makes drifting an excersize in frustration.

Onikaze

The main thing that pleases me in EPR is the tire physics, and suspension loading.

GT4 has that nasty on/off grip transition which makes drifting an excersize in frustration.

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To which I would counter that I find EPR to be too easy in regard to drifting, the transition to oversteer is immediate with no understeer to drive through.
Almost every rear wheel road car manufactured will understeer on the limit, which if driven through will transfer to oversteer. I personally have never encountered this in EPR, I have in GT4.

While you are also right that EPR does have understeer, it is too little and too easily avoided, rarely falling into the terminal understeer category even if you approach a corner in an almost suicidal rate.

Drifting in EPR I find a little too easy and drifting in GT4 is a little too hard.

As I say neither is correct.

Regards

Scaff

Please Scaff, don't mention GT4 in the same sentence as Enthusia. Neither one is perfect simulation no kidding. They're both on consoles which aim at casual gamers. Games do have to make a profit and hardcore gamers aren't the masses.

It can be a person's opinion that GT4 is only marginally better than Enthusia when it comes to physics, but then that opinion would be wrong.

It took GT series seven years to start getting a semblance of real physics.

Adam West

Please Scaff, don't mention GT4 in the same sentence as Enthusia.

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Actually I think I will, I'm not the first to do so, I won't be the last to do so.

Adam West

Neither one is perfect simulation no kidding. They're both on consoles which aim at casual gamers. Games do have to make a profit and hardcore gamers aren't the masses.

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I wouldn't argue with that at all.

Adam West

It can be a person's opinion that GT4 is only marginally better than Enthusia when it comes to physics, but then that opinion would be wrong.

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A well reasoned argument!

You may also have nothiced that I have not actually stated that one is better than the other, I have an opinion on this that I have not stated here, you have simply assumed.

Adam West

It took GT series seven years to start getting a semblance of real physics.

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A large part of which was on a platform that would never have been able to support even remotly realistic physics.

One could also argue that with out the development of the GT series, then a move towards more sim orientated racers simply would not have happened in the console market.


Additionally the graphs you have posted (which I have seen many times before - you also forgot the post the incorrectly labeled lat. and long. g graphes as well) do not prove or disprove anything other than Enthusia can produce data traces that are close (and nothing more) to that of a real car. The fact that they come from the Konami site and we have no means of recreating them in-game proves (or disprove) nothing.


Regards

Scaff

Wolfe2x7

I can't speak for the rest of the EPR fans here, but Enthusia is 10 times easier for me to play than GT4. It's also 10 times more fun. If you're having so much trouble, maybe it's too realistic for you.

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I didn't say I was having trouble. In fact, I'm flying right through the game with no real difficulty. I just mean that you can make a video game car hard to drive (which Enthusia is with a DS2) but that doesn't guarantee realism. The understeer vs. oversteer issue in Enthusia is way off the mark, and doesn't perfectly represent what would happen in real life. Too often, I can miss a brake point and then just kick the tail out and powerslide through the turn. That's not real. That's arcade.

kylehnat

Too often, I can miss a brake point and then just kick the tail out and powerslide through the turn. That's not real. That's arcade.

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Really? That cannot happen in real life?

Uh, if you're playing with DS2, you're missing the point of Enthusia.

If you miss a brake point, you can throw the car sideways in real life to slow it down, drifting is slower than grip, but not as difficult as GT4 makes it out to be.

I have encountered terminal understeer in EPR, I've found myself pushing wide because I didn't react quickly enough entering a corner, or came in too hot, hit the gas too early/too late, etc.

I haven't had the chance to get on the gas in a FR car with 300+ Hp and have it understeer though, if that's your idea of realism, GT4 is the game for you.

I was reading Super Street magazine earlier on a lark and they had a set up where they ran a Ford GT, and Ford Mustang GT around Laguna Seca IRL and in GT4.

they also had I believe Ken Gushi there, he remarked that the transition from Grip to Drift in GT4 was very inaccurate, the way the cars reacted like FWD cars do, even when they are FR and have high power, was odd and threw him off.

Which of course, is what I've been saying, but hey, it's not like I've ever drifted a car around before IRL...oh, wait, I have.

Do you have a link to the article? Thanks!

Onikaze

Uh, if you're playing with DS2, you're missing the point of Enthusia.

Which of course, is what I've been saying, but hey, it's not like I've ever drifted a car around before IRL...oh, wait, I have.

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I'm sorry I don't have 150 dollars to piss away on a DFP.

If you buy "driving simulators" to drift, then you are missing the point.

NSX-R

I'm curious! What were these problems you were addressing? Could you enlighten me? Thanks!👍

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Sorry about the late reply...

Take a FWD out in Enthusia, and tell me how accurate the physics are... I have driven many FWD's and they do not act in any way shape or form as they do in Enthusia...

This is just a small example...

GT4 has some serious issues as well (understeering, traction coeficient problems, etc...)

Both games are quite flawed, and neither accurately depicts real life physics...

Therefore, all the GT4/Enthusia fanboys need to realise this instead of shouting from the rooftops "*insert game here* is the best most realistic sim ever!"...

Nothing on the PC or on consoles can come close.. At least not yet...

If you buy "driving simulators" to drift, then you are missing the point.

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Oh really?... That's interesting logic... I happen to race/drift in real life... Therefore, I race/drift in simulators... This IS what such games are created for... To simulate real driving.. However innaccurate...

Delphic Reason

Sorry about the late reply...

Take a FWD out in Enthusia, and tell me how accurate the physics are... I have driven many FWD's and they do not act in any way shape or form as they do in Enthusia...

This is just a small example...

GT4 has some serious issues as well (understeering, traction coeficient problems, etc...)

Both games are quite flawed, and neither accurately depicts real life physics...

Therefore, all the GT4/Enthusia fanboys need to realise this instead of shouting from the rooftops "*insert game here* is the best most realistic sim ever!"...

Nothing on the PC or on consoles can come close.. At least not yet...



Oh really?... That's interesting logic... I happen to race/drift in real life... Therefore, I race/drift in simulators... This IS what such games are created for... To simulate real driving.. However innaccurate...

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You guys should stop this war & agree with him.

Both game are unrealistic, but you know game are made to be fun. Though I prefer to show my driving in Enthusia than GT4.

Though trying many many game I guess... actually help you to have a better idea how to figure how a car handle. I never really driven a car, so I cannot really give a comment about which one is more realistic.

Scaff

To which I would counter that I find EPR to be too easy in regard to drifting, the transition to oversteer is immediate with no understeer to drive through.
Almost every rear wheel road car manufactured will understeer on the limit, which if driven through will transfer to oversteer. I personally have never encountered this in EPR, I have in GT4.

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That happens to me all the time in EPR. To be fair, it happens in GT4, too, but you have to be on N tires, and after the tail has kicked out, you can't countersteer or you'll shoot back to grip, often overshooting it and going into a spin.

I will agree that terminal understeer is milder in Enthusia than it should be. In GT4, it's stronger than it should be.

kylehnat

I didn't say I was having trouble. In fact, I'm flying right through the game with no real difficulty. I just mean that you can make a video game car hard to drive (which Enthusia is with a DS2) but that doesn't guarantee realism.

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I agree. Grand Prix Legends is a good example.

kylehnat

The understeer vs. oversteer issue in Enthusia is way off the mark, and doesn't perfectly represent what would happen in real life. Too often, I can miss a brake point and then just kick the tail out and powerslide through the turn. That's not real. That's arcade.

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You don't know much about cornering, then...oversteer is a great way to fix a botched-up corner entry and avoid understeering straight on, off of the road.

I'll trade blows with you, here, for the hell of it -- In GT4 I can take a Shelby Cobra out, mash the throttle pedal to the floor and be guaranteed that the car will accelerate straight and true without a problem (other than masses and masses of wheelspin ). That's not real. That's arcade.

kylehnat

If you buy "driving simulators" to drift, then you are missing the point.

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If you believe that drifting works the same way in every driving game, then you are daft. If you think drifting is stupid and pointless, that's a different topic entirely.

Delphic Reason

Both games are quite flawed, and neither accurately depicts real life physics...

Therefore, all the GT4/Enthusia fanboys need to realise this instead of shouting from the rooftops "*insert game here* is the best most realistic sim ever!"...

Nothing on the PC or on consoles can come close.. At least not yet...

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Since when does "*blank* is the best most realistic sim ever!" imply that the speaker believes that *blank* is perfect? Does saying "this is the best steak I've ever had" imply that it's a perfect steak, and that no future steak could ever possibly be better? I think not.

If you know that any driving sim you try isn't going to be a perfect one, why complain about it? Why not simply enjoy it, and commend the ones that are more realistic than others, even if they aren't perfect either??

This next part goes for you, too, Scaff -- I still disagree with this view, but let's assume for a moment that EPR and GT4 are dead equal as far as realism goes. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, and when all things are "added up," they come out even. Which one do you think is more fun to play? Realistic driving games are supposed to be realistic, but they're still games. If neither is any more realistic than the other, all you're left with is the fun factor.

Regardless of whether you consider my opinion to be biased or not, my answer to that question would be Enthusia, without a doubt. I bet plenty of other people here would agree. Is that not enough to make Enthusia a better driving game?