Hey, here's an idea, let's all write to Top Gear about Enthusia!

[Hun200kmh]

I'm not able to discuss technically the pros and cons of EPR and GT4, so I will abstain myself of discussing that.

That said, I'll give you my two cents on the "which is better" issue:

EPR is better.

And, for me, there are about 211 reasons to think just that. Because each and every car that game has gives me a different feel while driving it. Even the ones that are similar.

And I don't know if they all act always like they would IRL. But it sure looks, and feels, much closer to it than any other of the many, many games I have played since I started playing computer and console games (I'm talking road/production cars, about racecars I guess computer games have the advantage).

Anyway, I've said this before and I will say it again. Even if I think EPR is the best of the two, I'm not a EPR fanboy, I dislike fanboyism and I also think that GT4 is an excellent game.

What I really hope from all this is that EPR will make PD guys TRY HARDER in GT5, and I also hope that KONAMI guys will make EPR 2 to keep up the chalenge. I want TWO great games to be released with the PS3. And I doubt any person that likes driving/racing games will want just one.

So, KONAMI and PD, show us your next moves. And we will thank you both, praise you both, play both your games, and bash you both for every inconsistency or flaw we find in them. Keep up the fight, because you gain a lot from it and we get two great games to play, instead of one.

Sorry for the long post, guys.

 

[shouhei]

I'm sorry I don't have 150 dollars to piss away on a DFP.

If you buy "driving simulators" to drift, then you are missing the point.

well if you use a ds2 to play a "driving simulator" then you are definately missing the point

sorry to butt in on a thread thats about writing to top gear and somehow turned into another gt4 vs enthusia thread lol

 

[Scaff]

You guys should stop this war & agree with him.

Both game are unrealistic, but you know game are made to be fun. Though I prefer to show my driving in Enthusia than GT4.

Though trying many many game I guess... actually help you to have a better idea how to figure how a car handle. I never really driven a car, so I cannot really give a comment about which one is more realistic.

Mr Deap I 100% agree with you, as I also agree with DR. They are both unrealistic, but in different areas. Which one is better is personal preference, and that should be respected.

I have been driving for over 17 years and worked in automotive training and product launches (which means a lot of time on track, proving grounds, etc) and both have flaws.

That happens to me all the time in EPR. To be fair, it happens in GT4, too, but you have to be on N tires, and after the tail has kicked out, you can't countersteer or you'll shoot back to grip, often overshooting it and going into a spin.

I will agree that terminal understeer is milder in Enthusia than it should be. In GT4, it's stronger than it should be.

Well I have to say if its happening in EPR I'm having a damn hard job feeling it!

I don't agree on the GT4 point that you can't countersteer when the car transfers to oversteer, you may not be able to, but I certainly can. On the subject of tyres, GT4 clearly states that N spec tyres are the closest to 'real' tyres it has, therefore its no big surprise to find that this is not as evident with S or R tyres.

Yes some of the cars are more snappy on the countersteer than others in GT4, and the effect is more evident that in the real world, I would however counter that less variation between cars can be felt in EPR (in my opinion) and that its too easy in EPR.

All I can say is comparing real world experience to GT4 and EPR regarding the transition from understeer to oversteer, for me GT4 is closer to what actually happens. However neither is 100% correct.

Understeer in EPR is just not strong enough, nor can I personally feel it building up in the same way I can in GT4. If I take just three cars I have driven on tracks that appear in EPR, the Toyota Celica SS-II, MGB and Smart Fourtwo. None of these cars suffer from understeer in EPR as much as they do in the real world, the Smart in particular. The real thing is a total dog as far as understeer goes, a few mph is all the difference between making a corner and terminal understeer in the real thing.

I agree. Grand Prix Legends is a good example.

You know that I would agree with this, but you also know that you can find hundreds, if not thousand of people who would disagree with you.

You don't know much about cornering, then...oversteer is a great way to fix a botched-up corner entry and avoid understeering straight on, off of the road.

However EPR lets you get away with it to the point of sillyness, terminal understeer is rarely actually tereminal in EPR. Compared with a botched corner entry in GT4 or LFS, Enthusia will let you get away with a hell of a lot more.

How many times during the last F1 season did we see drivers get stuck in terminal understeer situation that were totally unrecoverable? A lot, EPR would have had all of them back on the road with a big fat (and easily recoverable) dollop of oversteer.

I'll trade blows with you, here, for the hell of it -- In GT4 I can take a Shelby Cobra out, mash the throttle pedal to the floor and be guaranteed that the car will accelerate straight and true without a problem (other than masses and masses of wheelspin ). That's not real. That's arcade.

And I would counter that you can take a Celica SS-II in EPR and carry out a wide open throttle launch and the front tyres will chirp briefly before gaining traction. In reality the fronts will spin quite happely on a WOT for a few seconds before they gain traction or you back of the throttle.

I know we have discussed this in PM's and you raised the area of EPR slipping the clutch at launch, you also know that I own one of these very cars.

Well as the company pays for the tyres I gave it a go, and even if EPR is slipping the clutch for you the level of slip is massive and the aid is hardly characteristic of what a sim should be doing for you. EPR also does it is you stop on the track and then use the clutch button, dial in max rom and dump the clutch(BTW I think the company is also going to be paying for a new cluych soon as well).

Surely you would agree that this is assistance beyond that which should be provided.

If you believe that drifting works the same way in every driving game, then you are daft. If you think drifting is stupid and pointless, that's a different topic entirely.

Not excatly the most tactful way of sayingit, but I would agree with you.

This next part goes for you, too, Scaff -- I still disagree with this view, but let's assume for a moment that EPR and GT4 are dead equal as far as realism goes. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, and when all things are "added up," they come out even. Which one do you think is more fun to play? Realistic driving games are supposed to be realistic, but they're still games. If neither is any more realistic than the other, all you're left with is the fun factor.

Regardless of whether you consider my opinion to be biased or not, my answer to that question would be Enthusia, without a doubt. I bet plenty of other people here would agree. Is that not enough to make Enthusia a better driving game?

It was all going so well with this bit, I was sat here mentally nodding my head, and then I read the last paragraph.

Do you not think it a little presumptuous to say that if you can get enough people to agree with you that A is more 'fun then its better?

Surely this is an individual choice? If I find GT4 more fun that (in my mind) makes it a better choice for me. I mean using you're argument I'm sure (given that this is a GT4 site) that I could find as many, if not more people who would say GT4 is more fun. Would it then be valid for me to say that you are wrong? No, of course it would not.

Now, I don't actually have a firm preference between GT4 and EPR, I find both to be 'fun' in there own ways and to have strengths and weakness's.

GT4 has many faults which I have always been more than happy to admit, but EPR has a fair share as well, and the gains EPR has over GT4 in its physics model (which is not total in any way) are let down in other areas.

And I am not just talking about the gameplay and menues here, for me one of the biggest let down with EPR is the sheer lack of track surface detail. I've driven more that enough tracks and circuits to know that they are far from the totally smooth and sterile feeling ones found in EPR, and that makes a huge difference when driving at speed.

Anyway, I've said this before and I will say it again. Even if I think EPR is the best of the two, I'm not a EPR fanboy, I dislike fanboyism and I also think that GT4 is an excellent game.

What I really hope from all this is that EPR will make PD guys TRY HARDER in GT5, and I also hope that KONAMI guys will make EPR 2 to keep up the chalenge. I want TWO great games to be released with the PS3. And I doubt any person that likes driving/racing games will want just one.

So, KONAMI and PD, show us your next moves. And we will thank you both, praise you both, play both your games, and bash you both for every inconsistency or flaw we find in them. Keep up the fight, because you gain a lot from it and we get two great games to play, instead of one.

Sorry for the long post, guys.

Don't worry about the size of the post, and again a well made point and one that I would agree with (apart from which one is best - I just can't make my mind up - as I say each has strengths and weakness').


Regards

Scaff

 

[Onikaze]

Hun made a point I made several times.

I never said it was the end all be all Racing Sim.

I did say it has the best physics on the consoles currently available, and I'll stand by that.

Drifting in real life is fun, but expensive.

I know, my 535i has a flat and snapped muffler hanger.

If money wasn't an issue, I'd have a top of the line gaming rig and be playing the best sims out there.

Or I'd be drifting around in a supercharged, hardtop converted, carbon fibered miata.

It is an issue, so I'm stuck with a PS2 and my DFP, and a choice...I choose EPR for fun, for satisfaction, for the variation in car "feel", and for the way the cars react, which, while not perfect, is far and away more accurate than GT4 when it comes to one of my favorite hobbies, drifting.

 

[NSX-R]

Drifting in real life is fun, but expensive.

To me, Drifting is real life is pointless and expensive ... Just my opion is all:tup: !

 

[Kylehnat]

well if you use a ds2 to play a "driving simulator" then you are definately missing the point

Again, I apologize, but mommy and daddy don't just give me whatever I want. $150 is not pocket change to me. I could buy a DFP, or I could keep the lights on in my apartment and food in my stomach.

 

[Delphic Reason]

Since when does "*blank* is the best most realistic sim ever!" imply that the speaker believes that *blank* is perfect? Does saying "this is the best steak I've ever had" imply that it's a perfect steak, and that no future steak could ever possibly be better? I think not.

It was just an example... One of a possible many... My main point is, Enthusia is pretty darned flawed, quite a bit more than most of you are willing to admit to... This is a thread dedicated to informing Top Gear staff of Enthusia's superiority over GT4... This is just not the case... Enthusia does some things better, but fails horribly at others, and visa versa... Enjoy both games all you want, but leave it there... I happen to enjoy both games, but I certainly wouldn't put any effort into matching real life times with any I arrived at through Enthusia's/GT4's physics... It's just not feasable...

If you know that any driving sim you try isn't going to be a perfect one, why complain about it? Why not simply enjoy it, and commend the ones that are more realistic than others, even if they aren't perfect either??

Exactly, and neither is better than the other... Enthusia's menu system, graphics, prize system, and physics are flawed... GT4's physics, and AI are flawed... At the end of the day, it just about evens out in my book... Still, half the time I would rather be playing GT4, just do to the overall polish... Yet I am eagerly awaiting a sequal to Enthusia...

This next part goes for you, too, Scaff -- I still disagree with this view, but let's assume for a moment that EPR and GT4 are dead equal as far as realism goes. Both have their strengths and weaknesses, and when all things are "added up," they come out even. Which one do you think is more fun to play? Realistic driving games are supposed to be realistic, but they're still games. If neither is any more realistic than the other, all you're left with is the fun factor.

Regardless of whether you consider my opinion to be biased or not, my answer to that question would be Enthusia, without a doubt. I bet plenty of other people here would agree. Is that not enough to make Enthusia a better driving game?

There's plenty of people that would argue the other way...

and that's that...

 

[Mr Deap]

It was just an example... One of a possible many... My main point is, Enthusia is pretty darned flawed, quite a bit more than most of you are willing to admit to... This is a thread dedicated to informing Top Gear staff of Enthusia's superiority over GT4... This is just not the case... Enthusia does some things better, but fails horribly at others, and visa versa... Enjoy both games all you want, but leave it there... I happen to enjoy both games, but I certainly wouldn't put any effort into matching real life times with any I arrived at through Enthusia's/GT4's physics... It's just not feasable...



Exactly, and neither is better than the other... Enthusia's menu system, graphics, prize system, and physics are flawed... GT4's physics, and AI are flawed... At the end of the day, it just about evens out in my book... Still, half the time I would rather be playing GT4, just do to the overall polish... Yet I am eagerly awaiting a sequal to Enthusia...



There's plenty of people that would argue the other way...

and that's that...

I will make Delphic Reason to reply something...

Though there something that I really hate in GT4. Something that I think you too & most of us will feel while playing this game. That thing is how to race properly. This is the big flaw.

You know, I like to race & all, but correcting your corner brake just to pass in the inside is wrong. Overpower, pushing, braking to correct the corner, You cannot do that in Enthusia. It will not reward you for that.

The passion of driving a car is also messed up in GT4. The 300C fully tuned feel like some kind of F1. This sticky feel is very unpleasant as a GT game. After a jump, the car fall straight & regrip instantly. When you turn, the car feel that it got no G-Force & you follow some kind of rail. I hope you've seen the video I made with both game with the S2000 in Tsukuba. It's hard to explain this, but the braking is so much better in Enthusia. The feeling of the weight is also reproduced.

GT4 give a really bad example of how to countersteer. I bet if I do the same with a real car, I would end up smashing the inside wall or make a 180. Play with the gaz while maintain the steer angle to make more angle is wrong too. I guess also dashing with an FR or MR or RR & the car also go straight is wrong too.

Yeah GT4 got a lot of car & tune up, but Enthusia is a completely different game if you view it that way, that's my opinion.

BTW, in both game I've beaten Gan-san time.

 

[Delphic Reason]

I will make Delphic Reason to reply something...

You'll MAKE me reply?... A little hostile, don't you think?...

I will make Delphic Reason to reply something...

Though there something that I really hate in GT4. Something that I think you too & most of us will feel while playing this game. That thing is how to race properly. This is the big flaw.

You know, I like to race & all, but correcting your corner brake just to pass in the inside is wrong. Overpower, pushing, braking to correct the corner, You cannot do that in Enthusia. It will not reward you for that.

The passion of driving a car is also messed up in GT4. The 300C fully tuned feel like some kind of F1. This sticky feel is very unpleasant as a GT game. After a jump, the car fall straight & regrip instantly. When you turn, the car feel that it got no G-Force & you follow some kind of rail. I hope you've seen the video I made with both game with the S2000 in Tsukuba. It's hard to explain this, but the braking is so much better in Enthusia. The feeling of the weight is also reproduced.

GT4 give a really bad example of how to countersteer. I bet if I do the same with a real car, I would end up smashing the inside wall or make a 180. Play with the gaz while maintain the steer angle to make more angle is wrong too. I guess also dashing with an FR or MR or RR & the car also go straight is wrong too.

Yeah GT4 got a lot of car & tune up, but Enthusia is a completely different game if you view it that way, that's my opinion.

BTW, in both game I've beaten Gan-san time.

I won't argue there are a lot of things Enthusia does better, but there is still too much wrong with it... The physics aren't half of what you are making them out to be... Remember, I own and play this game regularly...

BTW, in both game I've beaten Gan-san time.

The fact that you can get a good time, means nothing, and says nothing for the physics either way...

Play with the gaz while maintain the steer angle to make more angle is wrong too.

Well, I assume you are refering to blipping the throttle to obtain more angle in a drift situation... Is this the case?... This is something that is indeed done in real life... I do it all the time in my own car... A quick couple stabs with the accelerator can help to extend drifts, in a similar (yet smoother) method as "shift lock"... If I am misunderstanding your statement, by all means let me know... "Play with the gaz while maintain the steer angle to make more angle" is hardly a clear statement...

I think you think I'm some GT4 fanboy... This couldn't be farther from the truth... I own and play Enthusia, GT2/3/4, Forza, LFS, etc... Furthermore, I enjoy all of them quite a bit... I just think your getting a little ahead of yourself with idea that Enthusia has better physics in every way over GT4... That is just a bit narrowminded... A lot of what you have mentioned as being wrong with GT4, I have not found to be the case, or if ever was, was corrected via turning aids off, adjusting settings, etc... Yet, There are many things I find very disturbing about GT4's physics... Understeering/oversteering comes instantly to mind, as does traction code... Still, these are both things Enthusia falls short in as well... Where GT4 has understeering issues, Enthusia has oversteering issues... Where GT4 has tight transitional traction issues, Enthusia has loose transitional traction issues...

I'm still waiting for a game to get it right... Enthusia is fun sometimes, and GT4 is fun others... I don't see why there has to be "the better one"...

Anyway, this is a discussion that can have no real outcome other than agreeing to dissagree... Which is what I propose...

Anyway, I doubt Top Gear is going to do another real life/video game challenge anytime soon... Though I would indeed like to see more of such things as racing sims progress... Although, more of a focus on physics rather than times...

 

[Wolfe]

It was all going so well with this bit, I was sat here mentally nodding my head, and then I read the last paragraph.

Do you not think it a little presumptuous to say that if you can get enough people to agree with you that A is more 'fun then its better?

Surely this is an individual choice? If I find GT4 more fun that (in my mind) makes it a better choice for me. I mean using you're argument I'm sure (given that this is a GT4 site) that I could find as many, if not more people who would say GT4 is more fun. Would it then be valid for me to say that you are wrong? No, of course it would not.

Now, I don't actually have a firm preference between GT4 and EPR, I find both to be 'fun' in there own ways and to have strengths and weakness's.

Damnit, poor paragraph/sentence structure on my part. What I was trying to say that if you don't think either one is any better, yet think Enthusia is more fun to play, then why not simply state that Enthusia is a better driving game? (The "plenty of people will agree" part was tied to the first sentence, but wasn't supposed to be tied to the last one. )

Well I have to say if its happening in EPR I'm having a damn hard job feeling it!

If you're slamming the throttle down mid-corner and having the car rotate instantly, kicking the tail out without the car pushing towards the outside first, there's something wrong with your copy of the game, or you're playing Ridge Racer.

Understeer in EPR is just not strong enough, nor can I personally feel it building up in the same way I can in GT4. If I take just three cars I have driven on tracks that appear in EPR, the Toyota Celica SS-II, MGB and Smart Fourtwo. None of these cars suffer from understeer in EPR as much as they do in the real world, the Smart in particular. The real thing is a total dog as far as understeer goes, a few mph is all the difference between making a corner and terminal understeer in the real thing.

For me, it's the opposite -- understeer in EPR is good, not as good as Live for Speed, but more than adequate for a console sim. I can also feel it building up in EPR, yet in GT4 understeer is more of an off-on switch.

I agree on the Smart -- that thing just refuses to rotate, despite its RWD layout. It'll plow 'till the cows come home. Oh wait, what's this? I live in the U.S. and don't have access to a Smart, yet I'm familiar with the driving characteristics you described...well whaddya know, I've driven it in Enthusia.

I have no idea how you can't feel the very distinctive car-to-car differences, as Hun200kmh said. In a Mini Cooper, you can feel how the rear end is just empty compared to the front, and vice-versa on an old Beetle or Abarth.

You know that I would agree with this, but you also know that you can find hundreds, if not thousand of people who would disagree with you.

I'm used to it. It's pretty easy to run into someone who thinks that GT4 or Forza is the be-all end-all master of all driving sims ever made for any platform on the planet. Prompted with the question, "What about Enthusia or Live for Speed?" they'll reply "Euthanasia? Huh? And don't you mean Need for Speed?"

However EPR lets you get away with it to the point of sillyness, terminal understeer is rarely actually tereminal in EPR. Compared with a botched corner entry in GT4 or LFS, Enthusia will let you get away with a hell of a lot more.

Compared to GT4, LFS will let you get away with a hell of a lot more. My Enthusia and LFS driving styles are very similar, and both games are more or less just as forgiving/unforgiving as one another. Of course, EPR is more forgiving, but I'm comparing it to LFS, here.

Am I an oddball for thinking LFS is easier to play than GT4?

How many times during the last F1 season did we see drivers get stuck in terminal understeer situation that were totally unrecoverable? A lot, EPR would have had all of them back on the road with a big fat (and easily recoverable) dollop of oversteer.

Well duh, we all know the tires for EPR's R-class cars are way off. The tire physics behind racing tires like those found on F1's make grip - no-grip transitions very abrupt, and once grip is lost it's hard to get it back.

How many times have I ****ed up a corner and flown head-first into a wall while screwing around in EPR? A lot.

And I would counter that you can take a Celica SS-II in EPR and carry out a wide open throttle launch and the front tyres will chirp briefly before gaining traction. In reality the fronts will spin quite happely on a WOT for a few seconds before they gain traction or you back of the throttle.

I know we have discussed this in PM's and you raised the area of EPR slipping the clutch at launch, you also know that I own one of these very cars.

Well as the company pays for the tyres I gave it a go, and even if EPR is slipping the clutch for you the level of slip is massive and the aid is hardly characteristic of what a sim should be doing for you. EPR also does it is you stop on the track and then use the clutch button, dial in max rom and dump the clutch(BTW I think the company is also going to be paying for a new cluych soon as well).

Surely you would agree that this is assistance beyond that which should be provided.

I was already talking about using the clutch button in the PM's. And yes, I agree. (and maybe you should take it easier on your company car's clutch )

GT4's always-there ABS and keep-ya-going-straight wheelspin are also examples of assistance beyond that which should be provided.

And I don't know about you, but I'd rather lock my brakes and spin out (for a legitimate reason) in a high-hp RWD than have a wheelspin-filled FWD launch (Whoops, I spun my Cobra!!......oh look, my Honda is spinning it's wheels, how exciting. ) . This is the point I've been trying to get across to you for a while, now. Some flaws are worse than others, and some positives are more important than others.

EPR has way more important positives than GT4, and GT4 has way more important negatives than EPR. Neither one is perfect, but EPR is a hell of a lot closer. Forza and any other console "sim" can't even touch either of the two. Therefore, my opinion is that EPR is by far the most realistic console driving sim.

Do you really think that's flawed logic?

 

[Mr Deap]

You'll MAKE me reply?... A little hostile, don't you think?...

The fact that you can get a good time, means nothing, and says nothing for the physics either way...

Well, I assume you are refering to blipping the throttle to obtain more angle in a drift situation... Is this the case?... This is something that is indeed done in real life... I do it all the time in my own car... A quick couple stabs with the accelerator can help to extend drifts, in a similar (yet smoother) method as "shift lock"... If I am misunderstanding your statement, by all means let me know... "Play with the gaz while maintain the steer angle to make more angle" is hardly a clear statement...

You did reply though.

I beaten kurosawa in both game to demonstrate that both game are not realistic. I really doubt I'll be able to beat pros in a real car for someone who never really have driven a car.

Well, I assume you are refering to blipping the throttle to obtain more angle in a drift situation... Is this the case?... This is something that is indeed done in real life... I do it all the time in my own car... A quick couple stabs with the accelerator can help to extend drifts, in a similar (yet smoother) method as "shift lock"... If I am misunderstanding your statement, by all means let me know... "Play with the gaz while maintain the steer angle to make more angle" is hardly a clear statement...

About drifting, when I meant about pressing the gaz, is by to make more angle, but press more to make more angle when the car start to lose angle. Once you slide, you slide.

 

[Scaff]

Damnit, poor paragraph/sentence structure on my part. What I was trying to say that if you don't think either one is any better, yet think Enthusia is more fun to play, then why not simply state that Enthusia is a better driving game? (The "plenty of people will agree" part was tied to the first sentence, but wasn't supposed to be tied to the last one. )

It happens on the web, what you wnat to say doesn't always make the translation to the written word, no big one.

If you're slamming the throttle down mid-corner and having the car rotate instantly, kicking the tail out without the car pushing towards the outside first, there's something wrong with your copy of the game, or you're playing Ridge Racer.

I'm not saying that the transition is totally absent in EPR, but it is far to little, the transition to oversteer in the vast majority of RWD cars is almost immediate.

Now it should be remembered that I am talking about the PAL version of EPR here, which I mention as I recall discussions about control differences between the Japanese and US versions.

For me, it's the opposite -- understeer in EPR is good, not as good as Live for Speed, but more than adequate for a console sim. I can also feel it building up in EPR, yet in GT4 understeer is more of an off-on switch.

I have to totaly disagree here, understeer is not good in EPR, I have problems feeling it build up and its not strong enough, and its too easy to kill. FWD cars on the track are nightmares in regard to understeer unless you are very, very smooth and your line is good. EPR does not recreate this well, GT4 errs in the other direction, but for my money its closer to what actually happens. GT4s biggest understeer issue for me (which I have acknowledged before) is that unlike EPR its too hard to kill the understeer.

I agree on the Smart -- that thing just refuses to rotate, despite its RWD layout. It'll plow 'till the cows come home. Oh wait, what's this? I live in the U.S. and don't have access to a Smart, yet I'm familiar with the driving characteristics you described...well whaddya know, I've driven it in Enthusia.

The Smart in EPR does not understeer anywere near as much as the real thing, one of the advantages of living in Europe, I have driven the car (it just about qualifies as that). Another area that EPR total gets wrong on the Smart is gear changes (so often and rightly raised as an issue in GT4), which are almost long enough to go and have a cup of tea between. EPR changes gear in the Smart far to quickly in comparison to the actual car.

I have no idea how you can't feel the very distinctive car-to-car differences, as Hun200kmh said. In a Mini Cooper, you can feel how the rear end is just empty compared to the front, and vice-versa on an old Beetle or Abarth.

I appologise if it sounded as if I was saying that the entire characteristic between cars was none existant, that was not what I meant. I was refering to the transition from under to oversteer in EPR, which for me is very similar between cars. I find the distiction in this area much greater in GT4.

BTW - the rear end of a Mini should not feel 'empty', having driven many, many Minis (I learnt to drive in one) over the years the back feels far from empty. Turn a Mini into a corner and the entire car turns as one, its a very controlled feeling, borne of the short wheelbase and wheel in each corner design.

I'm used to it. It's pretty easy to run into someone who thinks that GT4 or Forza is the be-all end-all master of all driving sims ever made for any platform on the planet. Prompted with the question, "What about Enthusia or Live for Speed?" they'll reply "Euthanasia? Huh? And don't you mean Need for Speed?"

On that I would quite agree, you know that I consider Forza to be a good game (much as I consider TRD2 or RSC2 or PGR2 to be good games), but not a good sim. I agree with DR that GT4 and Enthusia are closely matched overall, and would place LFS above either of them.

Compared to GT4, LFS will let you get away with a hell of a lot more. My Enthusia and LFS driving styles are very similar, and both games are more or less just as forgiving/unforgiving as one another. Of course, EPR is more forgiving, but I'm comparing it to LFS, here.
Am I an oddball for thinking LFS is easier to play than GT4?

Which one you find easier to play is very personal in my opinion, but I do think that the ability to fine-tune the interface in LFS makes a huge difference.

I would however have to disagree that EPR and LFS have similar driving styles, as I would quite simply put it in a different class. I just wish it had more than two 'real' cars.

Well duh, we all know the tires for EPR's R-class cars are way off. The tire physics behind racing tires like those found on F1's make grip - no-grip transitions very abrupt, and once grip is lost it's hard to get it back.

How many times have I ****ed up a corner and flown head-first into a wall while screwing around in EPR? A lot.

Maybe the F1 anaolgy was the problem, but I wasn't talking aboutthe lack of terminal understeer in the R-class cars specifically, rather in all cars in EPR, particularly the FWD ones. Yes you can encounter it, but its far less present than it is in the real world.

I was already talking about using the clutch button in the PM's. And yes, I agree. (and maybe you should take it easier on your company car's clutch )

GT4's always-there ABS and keep-ya-going-straight wheelspin are also examples of assistance beyond that which should be provided.

And I don't know about you, but I'd rather lock my brakes and spin out (for a legitimate reason) in a high-hp RWD than have a wheelspin-filled FWD launch (Whoops, I spun my Cobra!!......oh look, my Honda is spinning it's wheels, how exciting. ) . This is the point I've been trying to get across to you for a while, now. Some flaws are worse than others, and some positives are more important than others.

Now this one I can't agree on, messing up front wheel grip and traction is just as big an issue as messing up real wheel grip and traction. As I have discussed before under and oversteer are caused by the difference between a cars front and rear tyre slip angles.

The end at the higher slip angle determines in balance (front higher = understeer / rear higher = oversteer) and the amount of difference between the two determines the level of under or oversteer. Unless you fancy disagreeing with Skip Barber (who explains this excellently in Going Faster) this is not in dispute.

If its not in dispute and a physics engine gives a cars front tyres more grip than they should, it will have an effect on the entire cars balance, understeer or oversteer.

Given the sheer lack of spin and how quickly the Celica in EPR regained grip, then the front tyre traction is an issue.

For me this is just as big an issue as the fact that front tyre grip in GT4 is too little.

EPR has way more important positives than GT4, and GT4 has way more important negatives than EPR. Neither one is perfect, but EPR is a hell of a lot closer. Forza and any other console "sim" can't even touch either of the two. Therefore, my opinion is that EPR is by far the most realistic console driving sim.

Do you really think that's flawed logic?

I do think its flawed logic, because I don't agree that EPR has way more important positives that GT4 or that GT4 has way more important negatives than EPR (but I do find it interesting that you chose that way of saying it).

As for no other console sim touching either of them, well maybe in the US, but in the markets that Richard Burns Rally was released in it hammers both into the ground. In terms of the physics engine, tuning interface and damage modelling no other console sim gets even close to it.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Onikaze]

I didn't say GT4 or EPR are perfect.

I did say that in one specific area, drifting again, a hobby of mine, IRL and in game, EPR is far and away closer to what happens than GT4.

A big part of that is EPR doesn't have an overly biased model of American cars.

That is another thing I enjoy about the game.

Yes, EPR does oversteer a bit much, especially after driving in GT4 and using GT4 driving techniques.

Remember though, in EPR, you have no aids except I think ABS (can't recall for sure, though I suspect it might be absent in EPR), so when you get on the gas in a 300 Hp RWD car (Mustang GT) they are going to spin.

When you stomp on the gas in first after dumping the clutch, they light up for a bit, then it grabs, it actually probably grabs too fast (same with the Celica example) but one thing it does great is tug the car to one side or the other.

I love driving the Cobra in EPR.

In GT4 it's just a drift machine, too controllable, too easy to just lift throttle and let it slide, and it never bites you on the straights for giving it too much gas.

The Ruf CTR, in GT4 it's too controllable, too tame.

I prefer the wildness in the cars in EPR, yes, that is a preference, but again, it isn't as easy to drive IRL as it is in GT4.

My 535i doesn't spin the tires like the E30 M3 does (well, it would before the right rear popped, as they were getting bald) but it certainly doesn't instantly regain traction and toss me to one side or the other.

EPR feels a lot looser than it is though.

When you watch the replays (something I do a lot), you see that the times when the G-Meter's tires are glowing red isn't always the times that they are smoking up.

If the red tires=smoke, it would be far too loose.

The Type R Civic in GT4 was a bore to drive, didn't want to rotate off throttle, wouldn't do anything if you happened to light a tire up, and just bothered me to have to drive it.

In EPR I can feel the car want to push, I can balance the wheelspin with the gas to keep the car moving with minimal wheel slip, I can lift the gas and tap the brakes to get the tail to rotate and tuck the nose into a corner, it's finally a fun car to drive.

The feel of the cars, in GT4 the NSX was a bore, absolutely dreadful, the flat turning nose, the lack of body movement except for minor shifts, and the way it reminded me of driving the Elise, the MGF, the Garaiya, etc, etc, etc just killed me.

EPR it's fun again, I enjoy just running it around tracks.

I may have sounded a little over eager in the letter, but I'd love to have someone who makes a living out of tossing cars around to play EPR and see what they think of it.

 

[TsLeng]

For me, both has it pros and cons.

If I want to feel like a race hero blazing thru tacks at high speeds, I will play GT4 with R tyres.
But at the same time be frustrated when i cannot countersteer properly and can't do donuts if I spin. Stupid AI doesn't help either.


If I feel like doing some sliding, then i pop in EPR so I can drift drift drift. It also helps that EPR support my black momo wheel which GT4 cannot. Not to mention the sounds in EPR are wayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy better:tup: and Ai has 'education'.
Again, while playing, I would be frustrated when I find some cars unbelievably easy to control while others impossible to stay in line.


So, for me, EPR is more fun than GT4 after considering all the aspects.

 

[Hun200kmh]

Just to add something that came into mind after re-reading this thread (it went its own offtopic way, but it's a great thread to read).

I haven't been playing much in the last two/three months until this last weekend when I picked EPR again and, with a new mem card, "S'ed" all DR stages quickly (to my amazement and pride), and then I decided to do a few races. I chose to do it in EL, just to try out some cars that I didn't use in previous EPR-playing.

I set myself a rule about this EL: it would be a UK cars-only.

So, first car: the MGB

second car: the Lotus Europa.

And (Scaff, this one is specially for you), I ask you guys to try to race (not cruise, really race, against high odds and without the right to make mistakes) with these two cars in EPR and then write again that there's no (or unrealistically litle) understeering in Enthusia.

Those two cars are (as all EPR cars are), very different from each other, but they have one thing in common: they're "professional understeerers" !!!

(my previous pride about DR went all the way down)

 

[Scaff]

Just to add something that came into mind after re-reading this thread (it went its own offtopic way, but it's a great thread to read).

I haven't been playing much in the last two/three months until this last weekend when I picked EPR again and, with a new mem card, "S'ed" all DR stages quickly (to my amazement and pride), and then I decided to do a few races. I chose to do it in EL, just to try out some cars that I didn't use in previous EPR-playing.

I set myself a rule about this EL: it would be a UK cars-only.

So, first car: the MGB

second car: the Lotus Europa.

And (Scaff, this one is specially for you), I ask you guys to try to race (not cruise, really race, against high odds and without the right to make mistakes) with these two cars in EPR and then write again that there's no (or unrealistically litle) understeering in Enthusia.

Those two cars are (as all EPR cars are), very different from each other, but they have one thing in common: they're "professional understeerers" !!!

(my previous pride about DR went all the way down)

I can go one better than that, I've driven a MGB, my father used to own one.

I have never said that cars in EPR don't understeer, I've said they do not understeer to the same degree as the real thing. This is the case for every car in EPR that I have actualy driven in the real world.

I can quite comfortably state that the EPR MGB does not understeer to the same degree as the real car, nor is the real thing as easy to keep in check when the back end gets loose as it is in EPR.

Unfortunatly I've never had the oportunity to drive a Europe, but fingers crossed on that one.

I've also been looking at this more with FWD cars in the wet, took a DC2 to the wet Venice track (can't remember its name) wide open throttle launches in the wet with 190ish bhp throughthe front wheels with barely a chirp. Full throttle in every gear with no lose of traction, but best of all into the first corner with full braking and threw on the lock and mild understeer which could be easily escaped was all that happened. Don't try that in the real world, its not going to work the same way. Full brakes and a rapid application of steering lock in the wet, in a FWD car, even at low speeds will result in ver, very heavy understeer. Its also going to be difficult to escape from, after all its situations like this that ABS was designed for.

Regards

Scaff

BTW I also recently restarted EPR and my first car - the MGB - so this one is very fresh in my mind.

 

[Hun200kmh]

I can go one better than that, I've driven a MGB, my father used to own one.
...

I can quite comfortably state that the EPR MGB does not understeer to the same degree as the real car, nor is the real thing as easy to keep in check when the back end gets loose as it is in EPR.

Unfortunatly I've never had the oportunity to drive a Europe, but fingers crossed on that one.

lol, I can even go one better than that, I have a (great and old) friend that recently bought a MGB (childhood dream come true, I guess), but he rarely has opportunity to drive it, so last weekend he asked me to use it, which I gladly did, doing about 100 km with it (about 60 miles, I think).

well ... I can't really (go one better than that), because I drove that litle car with a lot of respect (1. it isn't mine; 2. it's almost as old as I am), so I didn't try any stunt with it, just smooth driving!

I guess this is different from when we are young and try out our father's two seater, right?

 

[Scaff]

lol, I can even go one better than that, I have a (great and old) friend that recently bought a MGB (childhood dream come true, I guess), but he rarely has opportunity to drive it, so last weekend he asked me to use it, which I gladly did, doing about 100 km with it (about 60 miles, I think).

well ... I can't really (go one better than that), because I drove that litle car with a lot of respect (1. it isn't mine; 2. it's almost as old as I am), so I didn't try any stunt with it, just smooth driving!

I guess this is different from when we are young and try out our father's two seater, right?

You are right It's a lot different when age and responsability kicks in, an MGB in this day and age is a classic, back then it was just my dads car to have fun in.

LOL

Regards

Scaff

 

[Delphic Reason]

You did reply though.

I beaten kurosawa in both game to demonstrate that both game are not realistic. I really doubt I'll be able to beat pros in a real car for someone who never really have driven a car.

It has already been agreed upon that both games are unrealistic... Give it a rest...

About drifting, when I meant about pressing the gaz, is by to make more angle, but press more to make more angle when the car start to lose angle. Once you slide, you slide.

First off, it's "Gas" or more appropriately, "Throttle"... Please, at least try and use proper spelling and punctuation... It makes it ten times easier on the rest of us who have to struggle to understand what you are trying to get across...

Secondly, I'm still having trouble deciphering your statement... It sounds like your trying to say you can't use the gas to increase angle in a slide (Once again, If I'm wrong, please explain in more detail), which is something that is the basis for drifting... You can use the throttle to initiate drifts, continue said drift, increase angle in said drift, and so on... Then again, I still don't really have a clear idea as to what you are trying to say... Is English your second language by chance?...

 

[Mr Deap]

It has already been agreed upon that both games are unrealistic... Give it a rest...



First off, it's "Gas" or more appropriately, "Throttle"... Please, at least try and use proper spelling and punctuation... It makes it ten times easier on the rest of us who have to struggle to understand what you are trying to get across...

Secondly, I'm still having trouble deciphering your statement... It sounds like your trying to say you can't use the gas to increase angle in a slide (Once again, If I'm wrong, please explain in more detail), which is something that is the basis for drifting... You can use the throttle to initiate drifts, continue said drift, increase angle in said drift, and so on... Then again, I still don't really have a clear idea as to what you are trying to say... Is English your second language by chance?...

Yeah.

 

[Wolfe]

I'm not saying that the transition is totally absent in EPR, but it is far to little, the transition to oversteer in the vast majority of RWD cars is almost immediate.

Now it should be remembered that I am talking about the PAL version of EPR here, which I mention as I recall discussions about control differences between the Japanese and US versions.

Perhaps that second bit is the key, 'cause the only RWD cars that will begin moving the tail out as soon as you stomp the gas are the powerful ones, which should do that. Unless Live for Speed is completely wrong.

I have to totaly disagree here, understeer is not good in EPR, I have problems feeling it build up and its not strong enough, and its too easy to kill. FWD cars on the track are nightmares in regard to understeer unless you are very, very smooth and your line is good. EPR does not recreate this well, GT4 errs in the other direction, but for my money its closer to what actually happens. GT4s biggest understeer issue for me (which I have acknowledged before) is that unlike EPR its too hard to kill the understeer.

My experience in Live for Speed tells me EPR's understeer isn't that bad. And I have to admit, I don't recall you previously admitting that GT4 doesn't let you kill understeer well enough. That's been my case for much of this multi-thread-and-PM debate of ours.

The Smart in EPR does not understeer anywere near as much as the real thing, one of the advantages of living in Europe, I have driven the car (it just about qualifies as that). Another area that EPR total gets wrong on the Smart is gear changes (so often and rightly raised as an issue in GT4), which are almost long enough to go and have a cup of tea between. EPR changes gear in the Smart far to quickly in comparison to the actual car.

Is it available with a manual tranny? If so, wouldn't it be as fast as you want it to be? Or are you referring to the weight of the flywheel being too low...

I appologise if it sounded as if I was saying that the entire characteristic between cars was none existant, that was not what I meant. I was refering to the transition from under to oversteer in EPR, which for me is very similar between cars. I find the distiction in this area much greater in GT4.

BTW - the rear end of a Mini should not feel 'empty', having driven many, many Minis (I learnt to drive in one) over the years the back feels far from empty. Turn a Mini into a corner and the entire car turns as one, its a very controlled feeling, borne of the short wheelbase and wheel in each corner design.

Well, I didn't necessarily assume that you had said so. That's just kinda the way it ended up being written in my post.

Right, I can understand that. Remember, though, I'm naturally a RWD driver, so I can't help but toss that car around as much as it will let me! In doing so, the tail feels empty because of how light and front-heavy the car is, and the whole car just feels small, and properly so.

Which one you find easier to play is very personal in my opinion, but I do think that the ability to fine-tune the interface in LFS makes a huge difference.

I would however have to disagree that EPR and LFS have similar driving styles, as I would quite simply put it in a different class. I just wish it had more than two 'real' cars.

I said, my driving styles in EPR and LFS are similar. And of course, that style is "drift whenever possible unless you need to go faster than that to win."

That said, the point I was getting at is that all of my driving techniques are quite similar between the two games, whether it's drifting or gripping.

Maybe the F1 anaolgy was the problem, but I wasn't talking aboutthe lack of terminal understeer in the R-class cars specifically, rather in all cars in EPR, particularly the FWD ones. Yes you can encounter it, but its far less present than it is in the real world.

I agree that it is less present than it should be, but I still think it's closer than GT4 is. As I was trying to say with the comparison to LFS, I don't have any more trouble with understeer in LFS than I do in EPR.

Now this one I can't agree on, messing up front wheel grip and traction is just as big an issue as messing up real wheel grip and traction. As I have discussed before under and oversteer are caused by the difference between a cars front and rear tyre slip angles.

Messing up front wheel grip and traction isn't as big of an issue because I'm referring to GT4's inability to properly simulate inertia and the forces behind spins, such as those you get when you floor the gas in the Cobra and don't let go. In GT4 you just spin your wheels, spin your wheels, spin your wheels, spin your wheels, spin your wheels, aaaand off we go, without having to worry about keeping the tail end in check.

If its not in dispute and a physics engine gives a cars front tyres more grip than they should, it will have an effect on the entire cars balance, understeer or oversteer.

Given the sheer lack of spin and how quickly the Celica in EPR regained grip, then the front tyre traction is an issue.

You may be right that EPR's front-tire traction is stronger than it should be, but I doubt that a full-throttle launch from a rest is the best way to prove it.

For me this is just as big an issue as the fact that front tyre grip in GT4 is too little.

Not in all cases. GT4 is just inconsistent (more grip in the front during drifting and countersteering, RWD cars behave like pseudo-FWD's). This inconsistency, to me, is worse than a small, consistent bias towards front-wheel traction.

I do think its flawed logic, because I don't agree that EPR has way more important positives that GT4 or that GT4 has way more important negatives than EPR (but I do find it interesting that you chose that way of saying it).

What's wrong with saying "EPR has more positives and GT4 has more negatives" instead of "EPR has fewer negatives and GT4 has fewer positives" or "EPR has more positives and fewer negatives and GT4 has fewer positives and more negatives"...? I fail to see how that's any different.

Anyway, is my logic flawed? Or do you disagree with my reasons? Those are two different things -- I'm asking you if you can understand where I'm coming from.

As for no other console sim touching either of them, well maybe in the US, but in the markets that Richard Burns Rally was released in it hammers both into the ground. In terms of the physics engine, tuning interface and damage modelling no other console sim gets even close to it.

As I said before, the sense of speed ruined it for me, and I don't think it's fair to compare a rally game with a "general interests" sim like GT4 or EPR, and vice versa.

"Best console rally sim?" By far. Colin McRae is a floaty joke. It's fun, but a joke.

 

[Scaff]

Perhaps that second bit is the key, 'cause the only RWD cars that will begin moving the tail out as soon as you stomp the gas are the powerful ones, which should do that. Unless Live for Speed is completely wrong.

Nope LFS is not totally wrong (but again its not perfect - just one of the best around by a long way), but it would seem to indicate a difference between the US and European versions of EPR.

My experience in Live for Speed tells me EPR's understeer isn't that bad. And I have to admit, I don't recall you previously admitting that GT4 doesn't let you kill understeer well enough. That's been my case for much of this multi-thread-and-PM debate of ours.

I'm sure I have mentioned on more than one occasion that the response of throttle lift is weak in GT4? As this is one of the main methods of killing understeer it would amount to the same thing (I may not have mentioned it in specific relation, but I'm sure you see what I am saying).

Is it available with a manual tranny? If so, wouldn't it be as fast as you want it to be? Or are you referring to the weight of the flywheel being too low...

All Smart models are only availiable with a robotisised auto-box and its appaling, you can pull the change lever (up or down doesn't matter) and count to two before the damn things will change. Later versions fitted to the Smart Roadster had much improved software but were still slow.

The gearchange for the Fourtwo in EPR is well off the real thing, to the degree most Smart owners would love the speed of change we get in EPR. The Smart gearbox issues are a well know issue with the cars.

Well, I didn't necessarily assume that you had said so. That's just kinda the way it ended up being written in my post.

Right, I can understand that. Remember, though, I'm naturally a RWD driver, so I can't help but toss that car around as much as it will let me! In doing so, the tail feels empty because of how light and front-heavy the car is, and the whole car just feels small, and properly so.

I more than understand what you are saying, but from my point of view I don't feel that the EPR Mini feels right.

I said, my driving styles in EPR and LFS are similar. And of course, that style is "drift whenever possible unless you need to go faster than that to win."

That said, the point I was getting at is that all of my driving techniques are quite similar between the two games, whether it's drifting or gripping.

Interesting, I find I have to adapt my driving style quite a bit between EPR and LFS. Don't get me wrong EPR is closer in style in terms of oversteer compared to LFS, but I personally find GT4 closer to LFS in terms of understeer. Wierd, but it could just be a personal thing.

I agree that it is less present than it should be, but I still think it's closer than GT4 is. As I was trying to say with the comparison to LFS, I don't have any more trouble with understeer in LFS than I do in EPR.

As I just said above I can't agree on this one, particularly in regard to the FWD cars.

Messing up front wheel grip and traction isn't as big of an issue because I'm referring to GT4's inability to properly simulate inertia and the forces behind spins, such as those you get when you floor the gas in the Cobra and don't let go. In GT4 you just spin your wheels, spin your wheels, spin your wheels, spin your wheels, spin your wheels, aaaand off we go, without having to worry about keeping the tail end in check.

I understand the areas you are refering to, its just that for me these are important areas as well, both GT4 and EPR still have a long way to go in certain areas. You find issue with GT4 and its ability to simulate inertia correctly, I find that EPR overdoes it at times.

You may be right that EPR's front-tire traction is stronger than it should be, but I doubt that a full-throttle launch from a rest is the best way to prove it.

Which is why I also tried the wet test with full braking and full steering lock. The Mini in question actual regained grip without a throttle lift or reduction in steering. In reality applying full braking in an old Mini Cooper in the wet and throwing on full lock is simply going to result in the car plowing on in a stright line, which did not happen.

Not in all cases. GT4 is just inconsistent (more grip in the front during drifting and countersteering, RWD cars behave like pseudo-FWD's). This inconsistency, to me, is worse than a small, consistent bias towards front-wheel traction.

Just another area in which we have different priorities, I find both areas an issue of equal importance. If restarting EPR has done anything its forced my to focus on both GT4 and EPR with a far more critical eye.

What's wrong with saying "EPR has more positives and GT4 has more negatives" instead of "EPR has fewer negatives and GT4 has fewer positives" or "EPR has more positives and fewer negatives and GT4 has fewer positives and more negatives"...? I fail to see how that's any different.

Anyway, is my logic flawed? Or do you disagree with my reasons? Those are two different things -- I'm asking you if you can understand where I'm coming from.

LOL, just pulling you're leg.

You're logic is not flawed and I can see where you are coming from, I just don't agree 100% with you. The issues that both have are, to me, equally important.

As I said before, the sense of speed ruined it for me, and I don't think it's fair to compare a rally game with a "general interests" sim like GT4 or EPR, and vice versa.

"Best console rally sim?" By far. Colin McRae is a floaty joke. It's fun, but a joke.

The PC version maybe, but I am refering specifically to the PS2 version, of which I have never had any complaints regarding the sense of speed.

I was talking more in terms of the actual physics engine (which does cover tarmac and gravel) that the content, but can see you're point regarding actual car and track content. Now if Warthog were to adapt the physics engine to cover a wider range of driving and racing styles for the PS3 that would be interesting. Food for thought that one.

You are right the Colin McRae series are a floaty joke in sim terms, fun yes, but for that I'd rather have RSC2 for the X-box, now that is a fun arcade rally game.


Regards

Scaff

 

[Mr Deap]

Did you guys have noticed that most of the time we hear...

The car should understeer a bit more a less in EPR... the gear change a bit too fast.. a bit too easy to drift in high speed... etc, etc..

I guess you guys are taking the sim a bit too far. Where GT4... cough, cough**

 

[Mr Deap]

Did you guys have noticed that most of the time we hear...

The car should understeer a bit more a less in EPR... the gear change a bit too fast.. a bit too easy to drift in high speed... etc, etc..

I guess you guys are taking the sim a bit too far. Where GT4... cough, cough**

I mean EPR is the ONLY game that recreate very well physic of the actual car. compare to the other racing games. I'm I wrong? That why I like EPR.

 

[Scaff]

Did you guys have noticed that most of the time we hear...

The car should understeer a bit more a less in EPR... the gear change a bit too fast.. a bit too easy to drift in high speed... etc, etc..

I guess you guys are taking the sim a bit too far. Where GT4... cough, cough**

I mean EPR is the ONLY game that recreate very well physic of the actual car. compare to the other racing games. I'm I wrong? That why I like EPR.

Thats the very point we are discussing, but I would dispute the 'very well' part, as I have mentioned EPR has flaws and in my opinion they are quite serious ones. The same goes for GT4, serious flaws exist here as well.

It does strike me as a little strange that it seems to be OK to closely examine flaws within GT4, but some members (thankfully not all) get very defensive when EPR is discussed in the same way.

I have no issue at all with anyone having a personal preference between the two, how on earth could I have a problem with that. However, to imply that EPR is the 'holy grail' of PS2 sims and as such should not be examined in detail I do have an issue with. As DR has said, and I totally agree, EPR has some issues with how it recreates certain elements of car physics. Particularly in regard to FWD cars and in my opinion understeer.

Just my thoughts and opinions thats all.

Regards

Scaff

BTW in regard to the "only" in big red letters, as I have already mentioned, Richard Burns Rally (and I do believe that a rally sim would class as racing) is far closer to the actual physics of a real car than either GT4 or EPR.

 

[Onikaze]

Well, again, PC Sims > Console Sims.

But for tossing the car around at the limit, and the satisfaction you get from keeping your car under control, EPR > GT4, in my opinion.

I mean, hell, I gave GT4 away to my girlfriends coworkers son, he's 10, he's never driven a real car, he won't notice anything strange...I was nice enough to give him a copy of my save file though.

 

[Scaff]

Well, again, PC Sims > Console Sims.

But for tossing the car around at the limit, and the satisfaction you get from keeping your car under control, EPR > GT4, in my opinion.

I mean, hell, I gave GT4 away to my girlfriends coworkers son, he's 10, he's never driven a real car, he won't notice anything strange...I was nice enough to give him a copy of my save file though.

LOL start them young thats the idea.

On the GT4 vs EPR, as I say I'm still torn between the two, still that means twice the fun for me.

BTW its the PS2 version of RBR I was refering to, but I know it wasn't released in all markets.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Wolfe]

Nope LFS is not totally wrong (but again its not perfect - just one of the best around by a long way), but it would seem to indicate a difference between the US and European versions of EPR.

I understand LFS isn't perfect. In my opinion, however, it is the absolute best sim available today.

I'm sure I have mentioned on more than one occasion that the response of throttle lift is weak in GT4? As this is one of the main methods of killing understeer it would amount to the same thing (I may not have mentioned it in specific relation, but I'm sure you see what I am saying).

Oh, yeah. That explains it.

All Smart models are only availiable with a robotisised auto-box and its appaling, you can pull the change lever (up or down doesn't matter) and count to two before the damn things will change. Later versions fitted to the Smart Roadster had much improved software but were still slow.

The gearchange for the Fourtwo in EPR is well off the real thing, to the degree most Smart owners would love the speed of change we get in EPR. The Smart gearbox issues are a well know issue with the cars.

I see. Oh well, as you said before, the gearchange times for pretty much all of the cars in GT4 are wrong...not to mention EPR is the very first driving game I've ever seen to properly simulate the way an automatic shifts. 👍 GT4 treats auto trannies like, well...computer-controlled manual trannies...

I more than understand what you are saying, but from my point of view I don't feel that the EPR Mini feels right.

What's wrong with it? If we're only talking about weight transfer and the feel of the car, not its limits, as I'm sure you take issue with what you perceive to be a lack of understeer...

Interesting, I find I have to adapt my driving style quite a bit between EPR and LFS. Don't get me wrong EPR is closer in style in terms of oversteer compared to LFS, but I personally find GT4 closer to LFS in terms of understeer. Wierd, but it could just be a personal thing.

As I just said above I can't agree on this one, particularly in regard to the FWD cars.

Let me try to explain...I'm no professional driver, but I know how to escape understeer, among other things, so I never find myself in a terminal understeer situation unless I've entered a corner going far too fast. With Live for Speed's realism, this "instinct," if you want to call it that, carries over quite well. I rarely have trouble with terminal understeer in LFS, but if I try to screw up, obviously Live for Speed delivers with a spin, terminal understeer, or braking oversteer.

GT4, if you couldn't already guess, does not cater to this instinct, at least, for me. Cars will understeer too much, no matter what car it is, and no matter what I do. Lifting off of the accelerator suddenly, mashing the pedal to the floor, coasting to reduce speed and regain grip, transferring weight with the brakes and/or steering, nothing works.

EPR does cater to this instinct, quite well. Like LFS, I rarely have trouble with terminal understeer in EPR. Every time I try driving like some ham-fisted lunatic, if I don't spin out I understeer straight ahead into a wall (or I slide sideways, straight-ahead, into a corner, due to braking oversteer, something that GT4 does not do at all). RR cars and particularly unbalanced MRs are worse than FRs, as it should be, and to be honest, if FF's were as friendly as you make them out to be, I wouldn't hate them so much. Sure, EPR's understeer isn't as good as LFS's, but as we both agree, LFS is well ahead of both of the PS2 titles.

I understand the areas you are refering to, its just that for me these are important areas as well, both GT4 and EPR still have a long way to go in certain areas. You find issue with GT4 and its ability to simulate inertia correctly, I find that EPR overdoes it at times.

Overdoes it? I'm sure you've told me before, but I can't draw the connection between this reference and any specific examples...

Which is why I also tried the wet test with full braking and full steering lock. The Mini in question actual regained grip without a throttle lift or reduction in steering. In reality applying full braking in an old Mini Cooper in the wet and throwing on full lock is simply going to result in the car plowing on in a stright line, which did not happen.

Well, I wouldn't go around claiming that Enthusia's wet-track physics are excellent, by any means -- better than GT4's by a large margin, if only by the merits of the dry-physics the two are based on -- but I decided to try this myself, anyway.

I tested a Morris Mini Cooper at Tsukuba wet with the DS2 and found that the game would not allow me to throw on full lock, as I predicted, but, the car would still only rotate so much before stopping and simply sliding (mostly) forward, waiting until ~15mph to regain true grip.

I tested it again with the DFP and found that at full lock and full braking, you're S.O.L. if you were expecting to get any turning done. Straight and true until the wall "convinced" the car to do otherwise. Slowing down to ~15mph also worked.

Thats the very point we are discussing, but I would dispute the 'very well' part, as I have mentioned EPR has flaws and in my opinion they are quite serious ones. The same goes for GT4, serious flaws exist here as well.

I believe Mr. Deap has a point, though -- a lot of the points against EPR have involved something along the lines of "*blank* is a little too easy" or "there's a little too much *blank*." Not all of them, but a lot of them.

GT4, on the other hand, has had plenty of examples and flaws that have been deemed either completely off, or quite inaccurate. Again, not all of them, but a lot of them.

At the risk of sounding like a biased, whiny little b****, it's as though smaller, less significant flaws in EPR are being weighed evenly against larger, more significant flaws in GT4. I don't blame you for doing it on purpose -- I believe much of that has to do with the fact that many of GT4's more obvious flaws (things like donuts or the handbrake) have been ignored, because there's nothing to be discussed.

It does strike me as a little strange that it seems to be OK to closely examine flaws within GT4, but some members (thankfully not all) get very defensive when EPR is discussed in the same way.

I have one small rebuttal to offer to that -- EPR is a little-known newcomer to the racing sim market, and needs all the positive attention it can get if a sequel is to happen.

I have no issue at all with anyone having a personal preference between the two, how on earth could I have a problem with that. However, to imply that EPR is the 'holy grail' of PS2 sims and as such should not be examined in detail I do have an issue with. As DR has said, and I totally agree, EPR has some issues with how it recreates certain elements of car physics. Particularly in regard to FWD cars and in my opinion understeer.

Could you find me a quotation where someone said that EPR should not be examined? Not to mention the fact that neither game needs to be examined with any amount of detail for someone to prefer one over the other.

I think you may be assuming that everyone has studied the games as closely as we have been doing.

 

[NSX-R]

Too be really honest, I have never really felt understeer in EPR, not a lot at least, even with FWD.

 

[atteiros]

One thing I did notice on EPR was that on some cars, I can do a 90-180 degree turn using the e-brake on very slow speeds (no drift, no gas, just a simple e-brake pull while cornering). I usually notice this when I try to correct understeer from an FF on the Victoria road/garden hairpin turn. But I still prefer it to GT4.

Konami should've gone for an all out sim, I believe. Yes, realism can be fun, specially if you know you can do all of the stuff on a video game on the car sitting in you garage (I'M NOT SAYING YOU SHOULD ), But with Enthusia's physics being pushed towards realism, and the gameplay modes and tuning leaning on the arcade side, It's really hard to know what market Konami was aiming for. But I believe in the essence of this thread... If Konami sucked at bringing attention to this game, then it can be the fans' initiative to do so. After all, how can we be sure that there will be a sequel?