Did Gran Turismo AI Improve Over The Years?

T

TuneRVisioN

(Banned)
1,196
I did a search and came up empty handed.

Did the AI improve at all? Or did it get worse?

I think that the AI has been getting worse since GT3 came out. I remember those really fun Test Course races in my Skyline R32, and everyone was close, my skyline had to catch up on the straights to make up for it's turning. It was the best ever in GT1 and 2. I don't even care if it was rubber band AI there. If you can get close races at the Test Course, then it wouldn't be called Test Curse anymore. In GT3, the AI just started becoming annoying, since they always get in the way when you relap them. Also they seem to attack you more in GT3, as I remember I kept getting knocked around in my Escudo on the Seattle Endurance on the turns, until I got the hang of the 1881HP. My lap times was consistant 1'20's, unless the AI attacked. The muscle car cup in GT2 or 1 showed that there was rubberband AI, because it was ALWAYS a close race. Close races can make you go from 👎:grumpy: :mad: 🤬 :banghead: :ouch: to :D :dopey:👍 :sly: :cool: :bowdown: :cheers: There is nothing more fun than a close race in GT.

Do you see improvements in the AI's performance, Or downgrades?

I would like to add to the GT3 part. I won a race on HARD difficulty. I was in a 238HP Suzuki Alto Works, while they was using 470HP JGTC's and a DTM. I freaking PWNED them, as they sucked at turning. I just had to avoid that amazing turbo lag...

Just watch the AI drive a Shelby Cobra in the american cup or seattle enduro, as he smacks head first into any wall.

EDIT: Mista Kellah and his GIF Avatar's again... :lol:
 
The AI was horrible in GT4, hands down. I've never played the others, but its really hard to be worse than 4's AI.
 
The AI has always been somewhat weak in my opinion, but back in the days of GT2 I though it was acceptable, but it's been so long since I've played GT1 or 2 that my memory is kind of foggy. I really need to find a used copy of both of those games so I can play them again.
 
In my vast experience with GT4 (3% complete!) I've noticed one thing - the AI doesn't always brake so ridiculously early. Every once in a while, they brake too late, instead.

I learned that the hard way as I was following a Renault around the Amalfi course. First time around I figured I would watch his braking point, then I'd hit the brakes about 20 yards further along. Well, he ended up nose first in a corner and I plowed into his rear.
:flag on the play:
:5 sec penalty: :lol:
 
The AI hasn't gotten better at all over the years, and while me and Digital-Nitrate will disagree over this 'till the cows come home, I'd say it has actually gotten much worse.
Reasoning? GT2-3 (probably 1 as well) had rubber band AI in most races, which, while cheap, made the races close and enjoyable. There were also fewer obvious AI stupidities (heavy cars or GT40 at Le Sarthe, for example). But in GT4, not only did they not program better AI for the races, but they also just turned off the rubber band effect, making all but the most one-sided races easily winnable.
 
Edgar here hit the nail on the head. GT4 has a delicate balance, and is easily upset by the slightest modification to your car. Its really bothersome.
 
Worse from GT3 to GT4

Still, it's not THAT bad. Some people seem to make out that its so poor that it destroys all enjoyment of the game.

I certainly hope that the AI 'awareness' improves for GT5
 
Gonz013
Worse from GT3 to GT4

Still, it's not THAT bad. Some people seem to make out that its so poor that it destroys all enjoyment of the game.

I certainly hope that the AI 'awareness' improves for GT5
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I agree to fullest of degree's here. I hate it when you're racing side by side with a car only to be pushed into a wall or into the grass.
 
The thing is, when you compare the AI in GT4 to the AI in Forza, its like night and day. really.
 
I'm not a fanboy, I can like whatever sim I want.


Oh BTW Forza 2 is gonna kick ass, GT5 better have all this and more.
 
Toronado
The AI hasn't gotten better at all over the years, and while me and Digital-Nitrate will disagree over this 'till the cows come home, I'd say it has actually gotten much worse.
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:)

Reasoning? GT2-3 (probably 1 as well) had rubber band AI in most races, which, while cheap, made the races close and enjoyable. There were also fewer obvious AI stupidities (heavy cars or GT40 at Le Sarthe, for example). But in GT4, not only did they not program better AI for the races, but they also just turned off the rubber band effect, making all but the most one-sided races easily winnable.
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I'll just say that if I wanted rubber-band AI I'd stick to only playing arcade games. 👎

Although I am also a fan of giving players options, so if PD made "catch-up AI" an option, as they did in Arcade Mode, I would support that 100%.

As I'm sure Toronado knows, I am not only a huge fan of close racing in Gran Turismo, but have gone out of my way to post several guides on information and tips on how to achieve close racing in GT4.

Just like in real life, if you want close racing select and modify a car so that it performs at the same level as the competition (in this case, the AI). The one thing the AI in GT4 is great at is consistency. I've recorded well over a million miles of AI performance data from GT4 and their lap and race times are extremely consistent! This makes it very easy to select and modify a car that would perform at the same level, and assure a close race.

Frankly, if you like rubber-band AI, just slow down and let them catch-up... that's effectively all that rubber-band AI does... it artificially improves their ability only enough to catch-up with you. By slowing down you get the same result... but personally I prefer selecting cars that won’t dominate a race. :)


Now I will say, that the problem with GT4's AI (and all AI from the GT series, and most driving games over three years old) is that the AI doesn't react quickly to other cars on the track. Thus they often smack into other cars and or slow down in back of them instead of making a quick clean pass.

The other issue I have with GT4's AI is that they do not adjust well for all types of cars, thus for some types of cars they break too late, and carry too much speed into certain corners. Fortunately, this is not a problem for most of the cars in the game, but it is definitely a problem that needs fixing for future GT games.
 
Yup... that's the one problem with GT4 AI... they actually do react to you, try to pass you without hitting you, etcetera, but they get flubbered at high speeds and high closing speeds... especially when you're sitting on their "line" and they don't want to brake.

They're actually pretty good at doing consistent laps, but they've been artificially slowed down, I feel, to about 90-95% of possible speed to make it easy for other players to keep up with them.

Give PD a break, though... it's hard to program an AI and waypoints (track waypoints) that will work for 100% of the 500 or so cars they put into GT4. Although putting in at least four waypoint sets (FF, AWD, RR/MR, FR) would have made the racing so much more better than watching every single FF or AWD car go off at the same turn.

Oh, who'm I kidding, the waypoints programmed in suck for most race cars, too, on some tracks.
 
That is because they have driving aids installed. If you are driving a 4WD car, thier TCS is set at 7, and ASM is set to 10, while in any other drivetrain, they are using TCS at 5 with ASM at 10. If it was like GT3, they wouldn't have ASM on almost every race, helping them turn more precisely.

Continue discussion. :)
 
I find it annoying how they never go full throttle on the mulsanne straight, they always stop as 200mph or so, they only floor it on the test course, and even then they break at the corners and when they approach each other.

I've gotta go and see if i can beat a pack of Group C's and LMP's in an Audi Abt TT-R Touring Car, seems easy enough.
 
PeterJB
I find it annoying how they never go full throttle on the mulsanne straight, they always stop as 200mph or so, they only floor it on the test course, and even then they break at the corners and when they approach each other.

I've gotta go and see if i can beat a pack of Group C's and LMP's in an Audi Abt TT-R Touring Car, seems easy enough.
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They do floor it, it is just the AIDS slowing them down, especially if they have a car that rattles alot. The AIDS fight the rattling, causing them to slow down alot on straights, since AIDS uses brakes instead of gas to operate.
 
PeterJB
I find it annoying how they never go full throttle on the mulsanne straight, they always stop as 200mph or so, they only floor it on the test course, and even then they break at the corners and when they approach each other.
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This is not true.

Run a race on Le Sarthe, or even just to the point where the AI finish going down the Mulsanne, then stop and play the replay. Select any AI car, then press the 'SQUARE' button and select "Display", here you can see exactly how much throttle and brake the AI use, as well as gear, speed, RPMs, REV limiter warning light, and G-force. If you press the 'X' button to get the inside car view w/instrument panel you can also view the exact RPMs as well as turbo boost (for cars with Turbos).

Believe me, I've spent a ridiculous amount of time putting the AI through countless miles and hours of testing in order to better understand how they perform, and I promise you, they go full throttle down the Mulsanne, as they do throughout all the races. The difference is that they won't force the rev limiter to kick in, but make no mistake about it, they are using full throttle all the way to the edge of the rev limits.

It is also important to know that the AI use different types of tires for different types of races, and so for accurate comparisons you must be sure you are using the same car, same set-up, and same tires.
 
Bulldozer
In my vast experience with GT4 (3% complete!) I've noticed one thing - the AI doesn't always brake so ridiculously early. Every once in a while, they brake too late, instead.

I learned that the hard way as I was following a Renault around the Amalfi course. First time around I figured I would watch his braking point, then I'd hit the brakes about 20 yards further along. Well, he ended up nose first in a corner and I plowed into his rear.
:flag on the play:
:5 sec penalty: :lol:
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Ha ha, I'm at like 12% in my best game! Anyways, I'd have to disagree a bit. I'm finding that the Ai in GT4 does tend to brake early...I've gained roughly 60% of my wins by out-braking Ai into corners. But this is also cause I know how to rely on brakes instead of horsepower (most of the time). Then again, I've only completed the Beginner's races, some of the pros, some of the European races, some of the Japanese races. Maybe in the Extreme events the Ai will be more adept at braking.

TuneRVisioN
In GT3, the AI just started becoming annoying, since they always get in the way when you relap them. Also they seem to attack you more in GT3, as I remember I kept getting knocked around in my Escudo on the Seattle Endurance on the turns, until I got the hang of the 1881HP.
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You used an Excuseo in the Seattle Enduro? :lol: Sorry dude, that's some major overkill! I think we've been over this subject before. Anyways, yeah, the Ai in GT3 & 4 does seem to attack us if we attack them. If you know how to avoid their stupidity then it's possible (on the other hand) to get a close but clean race. 👍

One thing I noticed in both GT3 and 4 is sometimes when a car is following you down a straight and catches a draft, sometimes that car will let off the throttle a bit instead of plowing into your behind or passing you. That shows a bit of intelligence because it seems the driver is trying to decide whether he has enough time to reach that upcoming corner first or not, know what I mean?

But if you come out of a pit stop (for instance) and an Ai car has time to avoid you as they fly up a straight, sometimes they'll stupidly plow into you anyways, as if they're not even paying attention or something 👎 In that respect, the Ai hasn't improved at all.

Gonz013
Worse from GT3 to GT4

Still, it's not THAT bad. Some people seem to make out that its so poor that it destroys all enjoyment of the game.

I certainly hope that the AI 'awareness' improves for GT5
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I do too. With only 6 cars on the road at a time, it seems there's gotta be some improvements eventually.
 
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I had to use that 1881HP somehow, trust me, it is not as easy as you think, especially when you are running Super Soft tires... I didn't even have throttle control available due to the fact that the controller is not pressure sensitive... :(
 
Well it's impossible to join any club in here without proof. I don't want to get flamed from each club trying to enter without proof.

Well the AI in GT3 is worse than GT4. They are SET to attack you at any given moment. They never attack another AI car, but they attack you. Makes you feel like a Retard Magnet. :dunce:
 
TuneRVisioN
They do floor it, it is just the AIDS slowing them down, especially if they have a car that rattles alot. The AIDS fight the rattling, causing them to slow down alot on straights, since AIDS uses brakes instead of gas to operate.
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While quite true in this situation, its not totally true. ASM will hold onto the revs to control the car as well as use the brakes.

This discussion was had a while back when someone (can't remember who) was claiming that the FGT would just hold onto engine revs for no reason. A number of people (including myself) argued that it was down to the use of ASM, and I posted these two video clips in support...

ASM OFF



ASM ON



...when cornering at around 1g plus and with the engine revs above 4k if you have ASM switched on the car will hold onto the engine revs for quite a while when you release the throttle. With ASM switched off the revs drop as soon as you release the throttle.



TuneRVisioN
Well the AI in GT3 is worse than GT4. They are SET to attack you at any given moment. They never attack another AI car, but they attack you. Makes you feel like a Retard Magnet. :dunce:
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I quite agree that GT3 was set to pit-bull attack mode at times, but would add that Forza had a similar AI set-up on certain tracks as well (the Rio one in particular if I recall), when the AI cars would just drive into you on the straights.

The best of the console AI around at the moment (and its still not great) is in the TRD series, for a couple of reasons. The first being that you will normally only get barged if you cut across someones line in a manner that would not allow them to avoid you, rarely will they just attack you. Secondly because the 'aggression' of the AI drivers is tailored to the car class being raced, with open-wheel races a lot more cautious than with tin-tops (and the V8 supercars being driven by nutters - just as it should be).

The AI in F1:CE is not bad as well, but its hard to judge how well it would work in general given it sole application to open-wheel cars.


Regards

Scaff
 
Cool information Scaff! :)

I have to say that the A.I. really downgraded now, seeing that they still can't drive a Shelby Cobra, a Honda Life Step Van, FIAT 500R, come on, why the hell can't they keep 19HP from drifting? Also why do they go reverse when they spin out, even if the track is right there in front of them?

But, in GT3, if you pushed someone to get stuck on a wall after a head on collision, they would usually stay there, like when you force them into one of Seattles walls or SSR5 pit wall at the end. Ahh well the AI always sucked, but they was only more fun and competitive in GT3, because of the Rubber Band. The AI only notices you when you are trying to go in front of them and make them give you a boost in GT4, they might tap you, but you see that they usually tap the brakes. Also I remember the A.I. in GT4 barely missing the rev limiter on purpose with the Subaru 360, to maintain maximum speed, the AI would be cool, if it weren't for driving aids and if they had rubber bandness. Some races in GT3 the AI removed the ASM of the Driving AIDS and did pretty well without the ASM.

EDIT: Can't even tell which one is worse now.
 
Toronado
And Forza is new. Games like the original TOCA and Viper Racing had better AI than GT4, and they were about a decade older.
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I must agree with Toronado,
Viper racing was head and shoulders above the rest in it's day. In fact I dug out my VR disc after reading this, and was still impressed by the graphics, detail and the AI. TOCA as well, and one that does not get mentioned much, and that is V Rally(if memory serves) an extremely tough game. The AI is pretty generic in GT4, certainly not what I was expecting
Fangio
 
Fangio
I must agree with Toronado,
Viper racing was head and shoulders above the rest in it's day. In fact I dug out my VR disc after reading this, and was still impressed by the graphics, detail and the AI. TOCA as well, and one that does not get mentioned much, and that is V Rally(if memory serves) an extremely tough game. The AI is pretty generic in GT4, certainly not what I was expecting
Fangio
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I gotta get TOCA soon. I keep reading how good it is.
 
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I'm glad to see a few more favourable ToCA comments.
It's too bad more GT players don't give it a run.

Cheers,

MasterGT
 

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