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[screaming chief]

15th Anniversary car cruise - races today anyone?

Sure what time ?

 

[Chiochan]

I was thinking sometime in the early afternoon or late morning, 1:00 pm est maybe. Not set in stone, and will be flexible, I think exosphere might join us since he said he took the day off. All I have to do today is pick up some cat food and make some Xmas candy.

 

[Rallywagon]

I'm with Owens on the name thing. I think instead of forcing people to abide by the name thing, we should update our forms and add in an additional field. GT6 Name. I was mulling this over a bit yesterday as well as I was cleaning up the color chart. I don;t think we should mandate GT5 crap. I think we should update SNAIL and allow for the additional name. When new racers come to the league, we shouldn't force them to reestablish a new name to match their PSN ID. It makes more sense to just add the field to the forms we have. To that end, there may be people who will refuse to change their GT6 name to match their PSN name as well, do we really want to ostrichsize these people? Especially when it's really easy to gather and enter this data.

As a matter of fact, I have already fixed the color selection form and chart to reflect this. Took 5 minutes. only because google drive is as buggy as the gt6 online experience.

 

[intoflatlines]

I'm thinking it is best no points or official races are held until these connection issues are resolved. Till then we run unofficial races as normal. Attempting to sort things.

...

As well this point in time it's critical that racers have a wired connection.

Almost makes me wish we required some video proof to ensure all are in compliance. As well during this video a connection test can be done.

A couple thoughts, and please forgive me if I'm missing something (I probably am since I'm very new to SNAIL)

- Regarding no points or official races for last night/moving forward until "connection issues are resolved": Why would those of us that had no connection issues and had a good clean night of racing have our results not count? We already had 1 week of testing . Plenty of people put in some good time and effort and were able to successfully race, I just don't get why the whole night would be scrapped because some people had connection issues and weren't able to race - isn't that (basically) the case on any of the regular nights?

- Regarding mandatory wired connections: connection failure has nothing to do with wired/wireless connections. The servers don't care what type we're using. I have a wired connection with one provider and a wireless connection with another. Last night my wired connection was giving me issues so I switched over to wireless. Sometimes it's the other way around. Also some people are not able to have a wired connection, so enforcing mandatory wired connections seems unnecessary, IMO.

Just my two cents!

 

[Rallywagon]

While I do not exactly jump on the wired mandatory wagon either, there is indeed a huge difference between wired and wireless. Especially when it comes to sending and recieving packets. For a video stream or viewing websites or something, packet loss isn't an issue. TCP will generally replace it. But when you are in a gaming environment, those lost packets can't be replaced like that. Wireless loses far more packets in the "wireless" phase of transmitting than a wire connection does, and it is more unstable as well. The download speed isnt whats important, your ping rate and packet loss rates are. Both suck on wireless compaired to wired.

 

[Wolfsatz]

A couple thoughts, and please forgive me if I'm missing something (I probably am since I'm very new to SNAIL)

- Regarding no points or official races for last night/moving forward until "connection issues are resolved": Why would those of us that had no connection issues and had a good clean night of racing have our results not count? We already had 1 week of testing . Plenty of people put in some good time and effort and were able to successfully race, I just don't get why the whole night would be scrapped because some people had connection issues and weren't able to race - isn't that (basically) the case on any of the regular nights?

- Regarding mandatory wired connections: connection failure has nothing to do with wired/wireless connections. The servers don't care what type we're using. I have a wired connection with one provider and a wireless connection with another. Last night my wired connection was giving me issues so I switched over to wireless. Sometimes it's the other way around. Also some people are not able to have a wired connection, so enforcing mandatory wired connections seems unnecessary, IMO.

Just my two cents!

Wireless connections are inherently a lot slower and prone to cause whole rooms to lag. Most of US did not have connections issues, but PD overall did the Obamacare of GT6 and was not prepared for the overload. A lot of rooms crashed at the same time.

I don't think 1 week of testing is enough as of yet proven by a whole series of issues; not only connection, but racer names, etc.

 

[dabneyd]

- Regarding mandatory wired connections: connection failure has nothing to do with wired/wireless connections. The servers don't care what type we're using. I have a wired connection with one provider and a wireless connection with another. Last night my wired connection was giving me issues so I switched over to wireless. Sometimes it's the other way around. Also some people are not able to have a wired connection, so enforcing mandatory wired connections seems unnecessary, IMO.

Whether you notice it or not, wireless connections have much, much higher latency vs. wired connections. Go to pingtest.net and compare your two connections. I understand that some people can't wire their PS3's, and I don't think we should make wired connections a requirement.

 

[ATLskydiver]

I will say that in my case, I live in an old house, so there is no Ethernet connection in my game room. I use the wireless router that is just on the other side of the wall (literally 3ft or so as the wall-passing crow flies). Setting up a hard line means either running a 30ft cable down the hall or hiring an electrician. I honestly want the better connection and my fiance would probably allow a cable for a few hours a week, but I'm willing to bet it would be a deal breaker for a lot of women.

 

[Rallywagon]

I will say that in my case, I live in an old house, so there is no Ethernet connection in my game room. I use the wireless router that is just on the other side of the wall (literally 3ft or so as the wall-passing crow flies). Setting up a hard line means either running a 30ft cable down the hall or hiring an electrician. I honestly want the better connection and my fiance would probably allow a cable for a few hours a week, but I'm willing to bet it would be a deal breaker for a lot of women.

Have you considered getting a couple of wall plates, cutting a hole and feeding it through? I can tell you, you don't need an electritian to run a network. My house was built in the 30's, and I plan on wiring all of my rooms for ethernet as I remodel them. But if your wireless hub is right in another room, on the other side of the wall. two wall plates and a 10 ft patch cable will get you there.

 

[intoflatlines]

I understand that some wireless connections have high packet loss and latency compared to wired, but I have tested both on my wired vs wireless connections and there is no significant difference in my cases. So either I have very good setup for wireless or very bad setup for wired. But regardless, the added latency and packet loss of wireless doesn't seem to be the cause of the crashed rooms. Add to that the fact that some people can't get a wired connection and it seems like it would be unrealistic to require wired only.

 

[JLBowler]

I will say that in my case, I live in an old house, so there is no Ethernet connection in my game room. I use the wireless router that is just on the other side of the wall (literally 3ft or so as the wall-passing crow flies). Setting up a hard line means either running a 30ft cable down the hall or hiring an electrician. I honestly want the better connection and my fiance would probably allow a cable for a few hours a week, but I'm willing to bet it would be a deal breaker for a lot of women.

Going to a wired connection for you means drilling a hole just large enough to get an Ethernet cable through the wall unless your router is strictly wireless.

The PS3 has garbage for a wireless connection. A possible work around for this is to use a switch to receive the wireless signal and then run a cable from that switch to your PS3. The PS3 will recognize it as a wired connection and in turn won't be limited as it is when it detects a wireless connection. This scenario still isn't as ideal as a full wired connection but it's a step up.

Does anyone know what type of connection method GT6 uses in lobbies? If they are using a mesh network setup then everybody is connected to everyone else and one bad connection can cause all sorts of problems and it would be very hard to isolate the cause of the problem.

I found this in the GT6 online manual.

Fixed Room Ownership (star type network model)
If room ownership is fixed, the race will be suspended if the current owner suffers connection problems or leaves the race. However, the fixed room ownership model means that a race can take place as long as there is a connection between each player and the room owner. Races are therefore less likely to be disrupted by individual players' network environments or network equipment. (Compatibility problems with network equipment such as routers will only occur between each player and the room owner.)
This is known as a star type network model. In this model, the player who created the room is the owner, and they host up to 15 other players. If your network's NAT type has been determined as 3, please play in rooms with fixed ownership.
In the star type network model, the room owner is required to have high network bandwidth. This means that not all players can become room owners. In the event of a player with low bandwidth becoming a room owner, cars may display signs of unnatural movement during online races.
Unfixed Room Ownership (mesh type network model)
If room ownership is not fixed, room ownership will automatically be transferred to another player if the current owner suffers connection problems or leaves the race.
Unfixed room ownership means that, in order for online racing to take place, up to 16 players need to be connected with up to 15 other players. This type of network, in which every player is connected to every other player, is known as the mesh type network model.
The mesh type network model is less likely to produce lag than the star type network model, making it suitable for high-quality races. However, if there are compatibility issues between any player's network environment or network equipment, it is more likely that errors will occur during the race.
There are times when players whose network's NAT type has been determined as 3 will not be able to participate in races that use the mesh type network model.


Basically, the mesh type network should yield a better quality race IF you have a room full of high quality connections but one low quality connection can cause issues with anyone in the room because the individual with the problem is connected to everyone. The star network requires one really high quality connection and you run the risk of the entire room dumping if the host has a problem.

As long as we have enough hosts that can support the high bandwidth needed and we allow racers with subpar internet to race, I feel it might benefit the overall quality of the connection to go to a fixed host connection.

 

[wumpushunter]

Does anyone know what type of connection method GT6 uses in lobbies?

If the room host is fixed it uses the star model, otherwise it uses the mesh model. http://www.gran-turismo.com/us/gt6/manual/#!/onlinerace/owner

 

[intoflatlines]

If the room host is fixed it uses the star model, otherwise it uses the mesh model. http://www.gran-turismo.com/us/gt6/manual/#!/onlinerace/owner

Last night were any Division room hosts fixed? I know in D3 we were unfixed, which is maybe why we didn't have many connection issues... At least, I think we were unfixed, because when Exo quit the room at the beginning room ownership moved down the line until we all exited and got back to Exo being the owner.

 

[JLBowler]

If the room host is fixed it uses the star model, otherwise it uses the mesh model. http://www.gran-turismo.com/us/gt6/manual/#!/onlinerace/owner

Last night were any Division room hosts fixed? I know in D3 we were unfixed, which is maybe why we didn't have many connection issues... At least, I think we were unfixed, because when Exo quit the room at the beginning room ownership moved down the line until we all exited and got back to Exo being the owner.

I found and added the manual excerpt to my previous post.

I know D1 was unfixed and we had all kinds of lag issues with 14-15 drivers in the room. I'm sure D3 ran so smoothly because you guys didn't have a full house.

 

[racingchamp30]

I was checking what my internet connection speed is under the network setting of the playstation 3. My nat type is 2. Download connection speed is 16.4 MBPS. My upload speed is 3.4 MBPS. That is around the speed i had when i was playing GT5 online. My connection is a wireless linksys router connection. Maybe once i'm settled in with GT6 once i start playing on Christmas and get the cars, karts i need for each SNAIL event. I was thinking if their still are lagging issues online, i would offer for me to be a host of whichever division i would be in to see if my connection could help the lagging online issues. I'll let you all know once i start playing GT6 Christmas and once i am able to get the cars, karts i need in GT6 for the first season, i'll let you guys know in the forums when i am ready to start racing in the season.

 

[intoflatlines]

I found and added the manual excerpt to my previous post.

I know D1 was unfixed and we had all kinds of lag issues with 14-15 drivers in the room. I'm sure D3 ran so smoothly because you guys didn't have a full house.

When we had 16 people in our first race it was perfectly fine for me and some others, but I know that there were issues for other people too. Did D1 have people drop off and if so, did it get any smoother?

 

[intoflatlines]

I was checking what my internet connection speed is under the network setting of the playstation 3. My nat type is 2. Download connection speed is 16.4 MBPS. My upload speed is 3.4 MBPS. That is around the speed i had when i was playing GT5 online. My connection is a wireless linksys router connection. Maybe once i'm settled in with GT6 once i start playing on Christmas and get the cars, karts i need for each SNAIL event. I was thinking if their still are lagging issues online, i would offer for me to be a host of whichever division i would be in to see if my connection could help the lagging online issues. I'll let you all know once i start playing GT6 Christmas and once i am able to get the cars, karts i need in GT6 for the first season, i'll let you guys know in the forums when i am ready to start racing in the season.

It's not speed that's the issue, it's latency/packet loss but I still hold that the slight added latency/packet loss from an individual (non-host) isn't going to cause a whole room to lag/crash.

There's no way to multi-quote on this board, right?

 

[JLBowler]

When we had 16 people in our first race it was perfectly fine for me and some others, but I know that there were issues for other people too. Did D1 have people drop off and if so, did it get any smoother?

I don't know if it got better after I left or not. When I had been lag slammed for the third time in four races, I was done. I know they had to start a third lobby for the night. I also know that one driver could only see five other cars on the grid.

It's not speed that's the issue, it's latency/packet loss but I still hold that the slight added latency/packet loss from an individual (non-host) isn't going to cause a whole room to lag/crash.

There's no way to multi-quote on this board, right?

Under the mesh connection, non fixed host, one bad connection will most certainly cause an entire room to have issues because that one bad connection is connected to everyone else.

Yes, you can multi-quote. Just press reply to each post you want to quote and they will all pop up in the reply box.

 

[intoflatlines]

I don't know if it got better after I left or not. When I had been lag slammed for the third time in four races, I was done. I know they had to start a third lobby for the night. I also know that one driver could only see five other cars on the grid.



Under the mesh connection, non fixed host, one bad connection will most certainly cause an entire room to have issues because that one bad connection is connected to everyone else.

Yes, you can multi-quote. Just press reply to each post you want to quote and they will all pop up in the reply box.

Thanks for the info about multi-quote. It's so simple!

Regarding the bad connection crashing everyone else, the language in the GT6 site makes it seem like it would greatly reduce lag. But then, they go on to say that if there are compatibility issues with someone's equipment, more "errors" would occur. So maybe the solution really is to have 1 person with a very good connection to be a fixed host?

The mesh type network model is less likely to produce lag than the star type network model, making it suitable for high-quality races. However, if there are compatibility issues between any player's network environment or network equipment, it is more likely that errors will occur during the race.

 

[JLBowler]

The way I read it, the mesh connection is the way to go if you have 10 average to good connections. If you have one bad one in the bunch, you can have all kinds of issues. The star connection seems to allow for one really good connection to possibly hide a bad connection from the rest of the room. The star connection would also make it easier to pinpoint the poor connection which could lead to getting it fixed sooner rather than later.

 

[Rallywagon]

Sounds like fixed host is the way to go then, and to make sure the host is wired and has a solid connection. @zer05ive @kcheeb, tracking this info?

 

[racingchamp30]

It's not speed that's the issue, it's latency/packet loss but I still hold that the slight added latency/packet loss from an individual (non-host) isn't going to cause a whole room to lag/crash.

There's no way to multi-quote on this board, right?

oh ok flatlines, i don't understand the whole connection thing that well just know upload/download speed so i thought the internet speed was causing the lagging or GT6 servers being overloaded since so many all logging in all at once.

 

[hooker4]

Just checked my internet via ps3 and my download is 5.5 mbps and my upload is 779.6 is this good? I know nothing about computers or internet. And mine is a wired connection.

 

[racingchamp30]

Going to a wired connection for you means drilling a hole just large enough to get an Ethernet cable through the wall unless your router is strictly wireless.

The PS3 has garbage for a wireless connection. A possible work around for this is to use a switch to receive the wireless signal and then run a cable from that switch to your PS3. The PS3 will recognize it as a wired connection and in turn won't be limited as it is when it detects a wireless connection. This scenario still isn't as ideal as a full wired connection but it's a step up.

Does anyone know what type of connection method GT6 uses in lobbies? If they are using a mesh network setup then everybody is connected to everyone else and one bad connection can cause all sorts of problems and it would be very hard to isolate the cause of the problem.

I found this in the GT6 online manual.

Fixed Room Ownership (star type network model)
If room ownership is fixed, the race will be suspended if the current owner suffers connection problems or leaves the race. However, the fixed room ownership model means that a race can take place as long as there is a connection between each player and the room owner. Races are therefore less likely to be disrupted by individual players' network environments or network equipment. (Compatibility problems with network equipment such as routers will only occur between each player and the room owner.)
This is known as a star type network model. In this model, the player who created the room is the owner, and they host up to 15 other players. If your network's NAT type has been determined as 3, please play in rooms with fixed ownership.
In the star type network model, the room owner is required to have high network bandwidth. This means that not all players can become room owners. In the event of a player with low bandwidth becoming a room owner, cars may display signs of unnatural movement during online races.
Unfixed Room Ownership (mesh type network model)
If room ownership is not fixed, room ownership will automatically be transferred to another player if the current owner suffers connection problems or leaves the race.
Unfixed room ownership means that, in order for online racing to take place, up to 16 players need to be connected with up to 15 other players. This type of network, in which every player is connected to every other player, is known as the mesh type network model.
The mesh type network model is less likely to produce lag than the star type network model, making it suitable for high-quality races. However, if there are compatibility issues between any player's network environment or network equipment, it is more likely that errors will occur during the race.
There are times when players whose network's NAT type has been determined as 3 will not be able to participate in races that use the mesh type network model.


Basically, the mesh type network should yield a better quality race IF you have a room full of high quality connections but one low quality connection can cause issues with anyone in the room because the individual with the problem is connected to everyone. The star network requires one really high quality connection and you run the risk of the entire room dumping if the host has a problem.

As long as we have enough hosts that can support the high bandwidth needed and we allow racers with subpar internet to race, I feel it might benefit the overall quality of the connection to go to a fixed host connection.

From what i just read, it seems like in the star type network model, if one person's connection is bad, then it effects the rest of the room but in the mesh type network model, the connection is more stable even if someone doesn't have a good connection.

 

[racingchamp30]

Still a bit confusing to me the way GT6 online looks like is set up.

 

[Handlebar]

I can understand not using points... Can we use the voting?

With new eyes and new drivers, we should avoid becoming stale, IMHO - I am ready to shake up the combos again!

Good job in resetting D4 last night, guys.

 

[wumpushunter]

@intoflatlines Click reply for each message you want to quote, they'll all be added to the text area at the bottom.

 

[intoflatlines]

oh ok flatlines, i don't understand the whole connection thing that well just know upload/download speed so i thought the internet speed was causing the lagging or GT6 servers being overloaded since so many all logging in all at once.

Lagging is due to latency (slow response time), not low bandwidth (slow download speed = less bytes that can be downloaded at any given moment). I don't really think it's due to latency though, it seems like the GT6 servers were just overloaded.

Just checked my internet via ps3 and my download is 5.5 mbps and my upload is 779.6 is this good? I know nothing about computers or internet. And mine is a wired connection.

It's kind of slow but again I feel like it should be adequate for racing. For what it's worth, I didn't see any lagging/jumpiness from you last night on our unfixed host room.

From what i just read, it seems like in the star type network model, if one person's connection is bad, then it effects the rest of the room but in the mesh type network model, the connection is more stable even if someone doesn't have a good connection.

That's what I thought too. But then their last sentence about one person's "compatibility" causing errors for everyone makes it seem otherwise.

 

[JLBowler]

The mesh (unfixed host) requires the one bad connection to "talk" to everyone in the room thus causing problems for anyone or everyone in the room. The star (fixed host) only requires the bad connection to "talk" to the host which would limit the bad connection's effect.

 

[Rallywagon]

You know, I wonder about this...

Just checked my internet via ps3 and my download is 5.5 mbps and my upload is 779.6 is this good? I know nothing about computers or internet. And mine is a wired connection.

Not trying to put you or your speed into the spot light here hooker, but my dl/ul speeds on speedtest are 54m and 15m respectively. Yet when I check them on psn, it is like 5 dl and 2 ul. which is a better representation of what we see when playing gt6?