10 point race, really? Still can't finish first!

[chevguy]

So I'm trying to win the Legends of the Silver Arrow races. I've won the Fuji Speedway 90's track (the first one). I wasn't surprised when I placed second on the Nurburgring (although I lost by 35 seconds, my time, 8:20.701). But now I can't win the Opera Paris race either! Both the Ring and Opera are 10 point races (or 16 depending on which field I draw in Paris), but in the first 1/4 lap, the McLaren is 10+ seconds ahead and not looking back. I've got the SL 600 with Semi-Racing suspension and nothing else. The overall times I'm posting at Opera Paris are (4:57.704, 4:57.215, and 4:54.203, respectively). However, every time, the McLaren wins by 15+ seconds. Now I don’t think I’m THAT bad of a driver, I’m not great, but I’ve won races as high as 140 points, which should be respectable.

So my first question is why is this such a low point race, I know the SL 600 is powerful car compared to most of the field, but come on, against the McLaren?

Second, are these times really THAT bad?

I suppose I could just dump a bunch of $ into the car and make it so it will kill the McLaren, but I don’t really want to put that much more into it. I could also let “Bob” do the race and see how he fairs, but his times are always slower than mine in other races.

 

[tubago]

Tou can always do as i do.
See what car finish 1st.
Reset your game, buy the same car, tune it, and you win the race.

 

[chevguy]

ya, but even with Autosave turned off, mine always autosaves when you get into a new car. So then I would be buying two cars.

 

[Alfaholic]

ya, but even with Autosave turned off, mine always autosaves when you get into a new car. So then I would be buying two cars.

Mine does that too, which really funked me off after I'd maxed out the engine of a FF Ford Focus (which I had to buy to do so) and an FF 147GTA just to see if they'd break 500BHP. Which they didn't. So I quit without saving, and came back the next day to find those two horrible, front wheel drive , torque steering, overpowered piles of poop still littering my garage floor and my wallet a couple of hundred thousand credits lighter!!!

Which, I must say, confuses me, because when I turned off "autosave" some time ago, I really did suffer the illusion that this would stop the game from saving stuff without prompting. I must have misunderstood the function

The icing on the cake though was when I came back to this forum the next day to find that someone had already answered the question about 500BHP FF cars and so my whole experiment was unneccessary.

 

[RenesisEvo]

Once you've sorted out your car, save and reset the console. Go straight to the race - the line-up should have the McLaren SLR starting from 5th. Make sure you have reasonably short gears for acceleration, and blast past him as soon as you can. Let the 4 other AI cars hold up the SLR whilst you make a run for the lead. Opera you should have no trouble; the 'Ring it tends to get through them all by around Adenau-Forst or thereabouts.

If you are still having trouble, I recommended buying the 190E EvoII road car - handles much better than an SL around the 'Ring.

Dont think your car isn't slow - I lost for 3pts in a heavily-tuned SL55, pushing out over 650bhp. I got B-spec to beat them (just), then sought revenge in the CLK-DTM (the car you'll get for winning). The EvoII 190E is good for 200 A-spec points - I've managed all but the 'Ring at 200 so far.

 

[xXSilencerXx]

Tou could beat this race with the mercedes CLK GTR race car. That's what my litle brother did, but I haven't tried the race yet cuz I'm finishing the endurance races and rally races before the manufacture events.

 

[Alfaholic]

Ooops I didn't actually respond to the original post

Ummm I find the a-spec points are not a completely reliable guide to the difficulty of a race because they fail to take into account the suitability of your car to the track compared to the competition (eg. Take a Tommy Kaira ZZ11 to Like The Wind, crank the gearing right up, and put a brick on your throttle pedal: 200 a-spec points guaranteed and you can spend one half of the race with your wheel wedged between your knees while you read Playboy magazine), and they also fail to take into account your starting position (usually last) compared to your stiffest competition.

I find in general on circuits with long straights I cannot win if I have a slower car, unless I have the option of qualifying, qualify first, and then block the faster cars on the straights (i.e. stay on the racing line )

On twisty courses I find the AI shoots itself in the wheelnuts by doing stupid things like braking on the apex, where most sane drivers would be hitting the loud pedal, and therefore it is often easier to win more a-spec points in an underpowered car there.

that would make Opera high a-spec territory though.... so perhaps, for all its power, the big heavy Merc SL is just a lousy car for the circuit.

 

[chevguy]

Tou could beat this race with the mercedes CLK GTR race car. That's what my litle brother did, but I haven't tried the race yet cuz I'm finishing the endurance races and rally races before the manufacture events.

Isn't this the car you get by winning these three races? How can you use something you don't have yet? Or are you winning a different car?

 

[raz_10]

I had that same thing happened as well
make sure the SLR starts any other place but first... you can catch up to it, the other cars infront wil block his way.


""ya, but even with Autosave turned off, mine always autosaves when you get into a new car. So then I would be buying two cars."""

Reset your game before getting into a new car or else it will save...this the most anoying feature that they came up with (other than the 5 sec penalty but thats another post) It auto saves even if auto save is disable...how

 

[xXSilencerXx]

Isn't this the car you get by winning these three races? How can you use something you don't have yet? Or are you winning a different car?

No it's not the car you win for Silver Arrow. It's won in the Deutch Touring Meistcraft( I know I screwed the spelling up ) in european events. I used the Alfa race car to beat it. The car you win is an LM race car but it's not the best LM.

 

[raz_10]

No it's not the car you win for Silver Arrow. It's won in the Deutch Touring Meistcraft( I know I screwed the spelling up ) in european events. I used the Alfa race car to beat it. The car you win is an LM race car but it's not the best LM.

in the Silver Arrow you win the MERCEDES-BENZ CLK Touring Car (D2 DTM) '00
you right on the
German Touring Car Championship : MERCEDES-BENZ AMG CLK-GTR Race Car '98

 

[356C]

I preffer to use on of the used SL's from the late 90's, specifically the SL500. Its lighter than any SL after it. Just tune it a bit and its easy. For the "ring" lightening up the car helps alot. Someone earlier recommended the 190 Evo, its a very good car, but to compete with all the SLs, it needs more engine mods. Just out of principal, I will never buy the SLR. Its ugly and pointless. For a real fun time, completely tune the old 300 SL gullwing car, and win it with that.

 

[jdw]

So I'm trying to win the Legends of the Silver Arrow races. I've won the Fuji Speedway 90's track (the first one). I wasn't surprised when I placed second on the Nurburgring (although I lost by 35 seconds, my time, 8:20.701). But now I can't win the Opera Paris race either! Both the Ring and Opera are 10 point races (or 16 depending on which field I draw in Paris), but in the first 1/4 lap, the McLaren is 10+ seconds ahead and not looking back. I've got the SL 600 with Semi-Racing suspension and nothing else. The overall times I'm posting at Opera Paris are (4:57.704, 4:57.215, and 4:54.203, respectively). However, every time, the McLaren wins by 15+ seconds. Now I don’t think I’m THAT bad of a driver, I’m not great, but I’ve won races as high as 140 points, which should be respectable.

So my first question is why is this such a low point race, I know the SL 600 is powerful car compared to most of the field, but come on, against the McLaren?

Second, are these times really THAT bad?

1) The game uses an "average" of the entire lineup to determine your points. In lineups where there's a HUGE difference between the best car and the worst car, your points suffer because you're trying to use a car to overcome the best car.

That's why your points are low.

Fortunately, the majority of the races aren't that bad but there are probably about a dozen that are. World Classics is, by far, the worst offender.

2) What RenesisEvo said. Paris is probably the easiest of the 3 tracks. But you NEED to make sure the McLaren is buried in the lineup. The first lineup from console reset puts the McLaren in the #5 slot.

3) For the Ring, you might be better off reentering the race until you get a lineup WITHOUT the McLaren. To put it in perspective, I managed a 147p win in a stock Merc 190E with a time of 8'34.

Good Luck!

 

[Oliver_Newton]

by chevguy
ya, but even with Autosave turned off, mine always autosaves when you get into a new car. So then I would be buying two cars.

I've descovered the same problem with the reset and the auto save. I have a feeling that it's a (incase of power failure) save feature. I may be wrong though. Anyways. To aviod this problem of it saving when you reset your ps2, just pull your memory card out before you hit the reset button. Then when the PS2 is restarting, plug it back in. You'll find your changes did not save. At least that works for me. Good luck.

 

[Duke]

To aviod this problem of it saving when you reset your ps2, just pull your memory card out before you hit the reset button. Then when the PS2 is restarting, plug it back in. You'll find your changes did not save. At least that works for me. Good luck.

Do NOT do this! It's a great way to permanently corrupt your game save!

Look in some of the numerous threads about memory cards getting corrupted. It's almost guaranteed to ruin your game save if you remove the mem card while the game is on. Even saving to a separate card in Slot B can ruin the game in slot A.

Don't do it, kids.

 

[JohnBM01]

If A-Spec points are rated at around 10 points, you have a car that's about equal to all the others. The best way to learn the equals of your car is to match them up against others in Family Cup races. Set the difficulty at 0, and see how your car compares against others in your class. For example, I've always thought DTM race cars can match up against the Super GT's GT500 class. So when points are at about 9 or 10 points, your car is basically equal with others. If points are much lower than 9, then your car has a chance to win completely ON PAPER. You still have to win outright, so just like all things in racing and life, nothing is guaranteed. If A-Spec points are above 10, then you are most likely facing off against much tougher competition. Either you're facing much tougher competition, or your car's configuration isn't up to spec against others.

Other suggestions? Try to revise your racing strategy and improve your racing skills by competing in Driving Missions and License Tests. They really work. Don't trust them jive turkeys about how these tests don't help any. Have to improve your racing somehow, someway, some day. If you have to, just improve the horsepower and set your car up as best as possible. I know I say that racing is tougher in GT4 than past GTs, but it isn't impossible to win no matter what A-Spec points you are working with.

 

[Oliver_Newton]

Do NOT do this! It's a great way to permanently corrupt your game save!

Ok for the record, I didn't mean to pull it out during a save. Just when your system is at idol and not thinking of anything. I obviously have seen the many threads about the corruption thing and know better. Personally I feel if you're stupid enough to pull your card out as it's being written to, you deserve to corrupt your file. I did not mean to cause any problems with my above statements, so my apologies if I did.

 

[Mr.Slow]

Sice you don't seem too worried about A-spec points on this race I suggest you do it for $0 like I did:

Use the Audi Nuvolari (25% completion prize) to win the S liga B (Euro Hall). Then use the prize car (AMG 190E '92) to win the Silver Arrow competition.

Audi Nuvolari Quattro
European Hall
S Liga B
Race 1 Nordschleife 8 points: 2nd by 4.605, DNF, 1st by 1.129
Race 2 Tokyo 24 6 points: 1st by 6.383
Race 3 Fuji 90's 9 points: 1st by 14.513
Race 4 High Sp Ring Rev 6 points: 1st by 20+
Race 5 Suzuka 7 points: 1st by 6.734
S Liga B Prize: AMG Mercedes 190E 2.5 Evo '92


AMG Mercedes 190E 2.5 Evo '92
Manufacturer Races
Legends of Silver Arrow
Race 1 Fuji 90's 1 point: 1st by 50+
Race 2 Nordschleife 1 point: 1st by 30+ (lap time was 7:09)
Race 3 Opera Paris 1 point: 1st by 40+

 

[Mooman117]

There are lots of posts about B spec points. Generally its to do with weight and power ratio when the field is even. However, it seems that it does an average when against a mixed field. Your SL will probably easilly win against 4 cars and its horsepower and weight might not be that much different from the Mclaren SLR. I got this in the 3 race series of the extreme races (I think its the PD cup, the one where you use sports tyres). If you race a Stock Prodrive Imprezza against an identical AI car and the other cars are slower you still only get less than 10 points. Whereas in the F1 races you always get 60 or 70 points.

If you want to win with the car you've got get a fully customizable transmission, weight reduction stage 1 (and 2 if you want), get some medium racing slicks and probably the racing brakes it will probably cost about 50k. Experiment with the transmission settings so you get good traction out of the slow corners. It is often worth using a higher gear than you might think with powerful NA engines to avoid to much wheel spin. In general you need quite soft suspension settings due to all the bumps on the track.

If you want to try the upgrades one at a time get the tyres first as they will help you brake latter, accelerate faster and carry more speed through the corners (especially the quick one about 3/4 of the way through the lap). Next try the weight reduction, then the brakes and transmission. It probably isn't worth upgrading the Power as you would lose most of it through with either wheel spin or TC when accelerating.

If you think of any particular area that is losing you time we might be able to give you a better idea of what to do

 

[jdw]

If A-Spec points are rated at around 10 points, you have a car that's about equal to all the others.

Sorry but that should read 60p, not 10p.

If you have the EXACT same car as each car in the lineup you get 60p.
The game is very consistent about this.

And the majority of those races should be easy because the AI is dumbed down.

The best way to learn the equals of your car is to match them up against others in Family Cup races. Set the difficulty at 0, and see how your car compares against others in your class.

Family Cup Level 0 doesn't give you a lineup that matches your car, it gives you a lineup the designers believe provides "medium" level competition for your car.

Actually, I'd make the argument that lineup you get at Fam Cup Lvl 0 is medium level competition for your B-Spec driver! Because, at least IMO, the Fam Cups are better for B-spec training than human training but they certianly work for both. The points is, my B-spec driver has no problems at Lvl 0 and he sucks

For example, I've always thought DTM race cars can match up against the Super GT's GT500 class. So when points are at about 9 or 10 points, your car is basically equal with others.

A DTM Touring Car can certainly beat the JGTC500. But a 9 to 10p lineup for a DTM TC would probably give you a JGTC300 lineup instead. Against JGTC500, you should probably be closer to 100p.

 

[Duke]

Ok for the record, I didn't mean to pull it out during a save. Just when your system is at idol and not thinking of anything. I obviously have seen the many threads about the corruption thing and know better. Personally I feel if you're stupid enough to pull your card out as it's being written to, you deserve to corrupt your file. I did not mean to cause any problems with my above statements, so my apologies if I did.

Actually, it's even bad to pull it out when it's not writing to the card. Like I said, even opening a save on one card and attempting to save it to another in-game can screw it up. It's just way too dangerous. If I were you I'd count myself lucky that it hasn't happened yet.

 

[Oliver_Newton]

Wow! Who knew. I didn't realize that even at idle it could risk corruption. That's just stupid. Well everyone, ignore my above advice. Sorry for any inconvience.

 

[JohnBM01]

Well, when I raced the Honda NSX LM Race Car in the Tokyo R246 endurance (big mistake as I soon learned), A-Spec was rated at 55 points. I stunk so bad I retired after about maybe 25 laps. So how the hell can you tell me (I'm not mad) that 60 A-Spec is about equal? Of course, the A-Spec deal is based on how your car ranks against others ON PAPER. If you used the Fina McLaren F1 against a pack of Suzukis, A-Spec would be at 1. Part of winning races is understanding your car's power and specs. The other parts include knowledge of the track, your racing ability, using that car to the best to your ability to win, and if you have to, play dirty. Some races seem completely unfair. When I did Tsukuba Wet Hard, I had to take 5-Second Penalties if it means you bettering your chances of winning. Play dirty, but no GameSharking.

 

[chevguy]

I DID IT!

I put a chip in the SL 600, kept the semi-racing suspension, and beat the McLaren in Paris! Granted, I drilled him on the second to last turn before the finish as he was passing me, but I was really tired of trying. Say what you like.

I beat the Ring to with the same setup, but finally drew a lineup without the McLaren. Thanks for the tips on that.

Other suggestions? Try to revise your racing strategy and improve your racing skills by competing in Driving Missions and License Tests. They really work. Don't trust them jive turkeys about how these tests don't help any. Have to improve your racing somehow, someway, some day. If you have to, just improve the horsepower and set your car up as best as possible. I know I say that racing is tougher in GT4 than past GTs, but it isn't impossible to win no matter what A-Spec points you are working with.

JohnBM01 - Would you be willing to get an SL 600 with the same setup, run it around the ring or Opera Paris I don't care which, and let me know what time you get?

 

[zPhoenix]

I used a Mercedes Touring car for this race (CLK or maybe one slightly less powerful), it was not the Race car, and it was a car I won at one of the other races (Beginner, Professional?) - check the prize FAQ.

Anyway, that drives like if it had glue on the tires, and can be used to easily beat the series in both A and B-spec without brutally overpowering the competition (somewhere between 5 and 15 A-spec points if I remember correctly). You might not even need to upgrade the car at all or much - I can't remember exactly.

 

[jdw]

Well, when I raced the Honda NSX LM Race Car in the Tokyo R246 endurance (big mistake as I soon learned), A-Spec was rated at 55 points. I stunk so bad I retired after about maybe 25 laps. So how the hell can you tell me (I'm not mad) that 60 A-Spec is about equal? Of course, the A-Spec deal is based on how your car ranks against others ON PAPER. If you used the Fina McLaren F1 against a pack of Suzukis, A-Spec would be at 1. Part of winning races is understanding your car's power and specs. The other parts include knowledge of the track, your racing ability, using that car to the best to your ability to win, and if you have to, play dirty. Some races seem completely unfair. When I did Tsukuba Wet Hard, I had to take 5-Second Penalties if it means you bettering your chances of winning. Play dirty, but no GameSharking.

Proving that PDs intention is that 60p == race against the same "level" of car is easy. There are several manufacturer races where you only race against one car or a couple similar cars. You get 60p. Same with Formula GT if you're using the Formula.

No, when racing a mixed field there are numerous anecdotes where, with your chosen car, you'd get blown out in a 60p field.

Hell, that's what this thread is about!


The problem is this. While 60p is *supposed* to mean you're racing the same level of car (and in the easy mfg race case - it does), it doesn't often work in practice.

-- Points are based on an average of the entire lineup. So, like I said, if you have a powerful car and some weak cars... you won't get too many points. This is the worst part. The more even the field, the EASIER it is to get points.

-- The best way PD could've guaranteed a 1:1 mapping between points and actual difficulty is to simulate the race (let the AI drive your car and your competitors) and note the lap times. If thelap times for your car are even - give out the "median" points - say 60p or 100p. If the lap times for your car are less than that of the rest of the field, your points go up.

BUT, they didn't . Practically speaking, they couldn't. It could have been done but would have been too expensive. So they did the next best thing... assign each car a "base" point value and change it according to critical mods -- HP, weight, tires and downforce -- and assign crude point changes to each one.

But the crudity of the points means that they don't balance well and the "base" value can be off. So certain cars get favored for points more than others (Suzuki GSX, Renault Clio, Lotus Elise, BMW M3 GTR, etc).

That's why you see all the big discrepancies.

Getting high points is usually an excercise in finding the right car for the right race.



So for JGTC, I'd guess you problem is... the NSX outpowers the field but does NOT outcorner them. Why? Because the NSX has 1/2 the downforce of the other JGTC500 cars. So the points are a lot lower than they should be because of the lack of balance between downforce and power/weight for the at car.

There are at least 3 200p cars for that race though. I used the Toyota Altezza TC and the Wedsport Celica. Both are fun. And the Suzuki GSX, fully modded, will kill 'em!


As for Tsukuba Hard? Try the Chapparl 2J, bone stock. Let me know what happens

 

[Alfaholic]

-- The best way PD could've guaranteed a 1:1 mapping between points and actual difficulty is to simulate the race (let the AI drive your car and your competitors) and note the lap times. If thelap times for your car are even - give out the "median" points - say 60p or 100p. If the lap times for your car are less than that of the rest of the field, your points go up.

Even better, since the emphasis with a-spec points is always on winning the race, a-spec points could have been calculated against only the strongest AI car, that is, the one who would win the race if you didn't, since most of the events are really 2 car races which happen to also feature 4 irrelevant travelling spectators practising their formation crashing.

But then, as you said, they didn't do it that way. Fortunately, they also didn't make you lose anything for racing under lousy a-spec points, so their unreliability is happily also irrelevant. I have a feeling they would have featured more prominently in the stillborn online racing function, and may take on more relevance and refinement in future releases. So when GT5 is released in 2015 we may have the answer