2.09 Toe Testing

[XDesperado67]

I wasn't taking a stab at you. I just feel like your car selection is insane haha.

I think we are all interested in whats fastest. Ease of control doesn't matter.

Depending on what your doing I have to disagree with the part of your statement I bolded. Trying for one magic lap and the number of times you get a red lap/crash doesn't matter then your probably right in most instances. Racing against competition over multiple laps requires a car you can drive consistently so a tune that works for a single magic lap may be nearly impossible to win with because it's so demanding of the driver and getting those perfect lines.

 

[Adrenaline]

While taking part in the most recent seasonal I loaded up the Leaders Ghost (before it was too crazy fast) and what I notice about the Aliens is that they enter later and sharper than I do, by a considerable amount. Based on this driving line, it makes sense that Negative Toe in the front, would help them make a sharp cut, and then get on the gas earlier. To the point where positive toe wouldn't be beneficial to them, because their corners aren't the typical 'arc' that we think of.

This was a rough google search, but the green line, is average, if not even sooner.
The blue is what Aliens most commonly seem to use, and as you can see, to make that sharp cut, they set the car up extremely loose, with lots of turn-in, and then due to the exit trajectory don't really need much from the setup to aid them on exit, as it's far more of a straight shot than green. Thus far in my testing of 2.09 I've found my results still follow my 2.07 theory on toe. It just seems that the theory only applies (or are found most noticeable) to the more standard apex arc, rather than the extreme entry angles.

Again... This is all just my personal theory, with no actual data to back it up other than my views, opinion and experience.

 

[XDesperado67]

@Adrenaline from your diagrams and what you've said it sounds like on the tighter corners at least the aliens are practically throwing the car into a drift then using a touch of understeer to help them recover as they power out of the corner.
If the car had to much front end grip mid corner and on corner exit they would risk over rotation.

 

[Johnnypenso]

Back in my karting days, late apexing was the way to fastest laps without a doubt. I drive the same way in GT5 as best I can and when I have a ghost to measure against, the later the apex the faster you get to the next corner most of the time.

 

[rosckolove]

Depending on what your doing I have to disagree with the part of your statement I bolded. Trying for one magic lap and the number of times you get a red lap/crash doesn't matter then your probably right in most instances. Racing against competition over multiple laps requires a car you can drive consistently so a tune that works for a single magic lap may be nearly impossible to win with because it's so demanding of the driver and getting those perfect lines.

What I meant by that was... I'm not willing to give up any speed for ease of control.... ever.

I will overcome the difficulty of driving the setup.

Besides, usually a fast setup is the best setup all around. If you have a mediocre easy to control setup your going to be pushing it beyond its limits, just trying to keep up. If you have a great competitive setup, you could take it easy and run the same lap times as the crap setup while saving tires. Speed always wins. Its just a game, controlling a car is not hard to conquer.

Any win with formidable competition is going to be demanding....

 

[Stotty]

This was a rough google search, but the green line, is average, if not even

Agreed 👍

Ultimately, the better a driver is at managing weight transfer, the faster they will be.

The C7 Seasonal at Nurb was a great example of this.

Dan Holland had the technique and skill to create the perfect amount of corner entry rotation consistently, using just the natural weight of the car and the brakes... as can be seen in his amazing replay!

Less skilled players either are less consistent at doing this or adpopt a different appraoch - slow in fast out (relatively!), for example, which Wes uses to really good effect in his lap. But this will never be quite as fast.

When settings are allowed it enables the slighty less skilled, but still fast drivers to set up the car to do things that Dan can do without needing the set up.

 

[nomis3613]

For RWD, I'm with Adrenaline on how toe works:

Adrenaline - Rear Toe: I always start at 0.00 and move Positive to create stability, or negative to induce oversteer, or create rotation.

Front Toe: I use front toe to balance the entry/exit of a corner. Where I feel that once the car is already tuned, if you need to add entry ability, you use negative front toe. If you need to add exit ability you add positive toe(or also remove the tendency of a car to excessively 'dive' into the corner). Based on what the car is doing, I use front toe, to try and make the car feel consistent all the way through the corner. Entry will effect the entire corner, so people tend to notice it having more effect as a whole.

Also, positive toe improves RWD traction. However, I haven't yet looked into how front toe affects FWD traction in 2.09.

Cheers,
Simon

 

[CSLACR]

@Adrenaline from your diagrams and what you've said it sounds like on the tighter corners at least the aliens are practically throwing the car into a drift then using a touch of understeer to help them recover as they power out of the corner.
If the car had to much front end grip mid corner and on corner exit they would risk over rotation.

Yes.
I think it's more about skilled drivers having adapted to the game's understeer than it is the "faster" way of doing it.

 

[Adrenaline]

@Adrenaline from your diagrams and what you've said it sounds like on the tighter corners at least the aliens are practically throwing the car into a drift then using a touch of understeer to help them recover as they power out of the corner.
If the car had to much front end grip mid corner and on corner exit they would risk over rotation.

Essentially what I'm saying, is that the Aliens don't really have a 3 part corner like us common folk. We have an entry, center and exit. Whereas they have an entry that takes them deep into the turn, an abrupt change of direction, and then they begin their straightaway. There is no 'exit' for them. Our 'exit' is simply the beginning of their straightaway. They don't really have to worry about the 'exit' of their corner (tuning wise), because in it's base form, it doesn't exist. Their entire focus(tuning wise) is on a single change of direction, with maximum front end grip, a rapid and sharp change of direction and then they're gone; which based on my theory, is all about 'turn in' meaning negative front toe, negative rear toe, and a rather loose car that can simply change direction extremely quick, nearly on the edge of a 'slide'. Like you said, nearly a drift, but the rear tires are constantly on the edge of traction, and if you watch closely in the replays, you'll actually see a slight 'slide/drift' motion on certain corners, where it actually grants them a quick, controlled 'pitch' of the car, and helps them get the nose pointed even earlier to accelerate sooner.

This is just my perception of the ghosts I saw on the most recent time trial. I could be wrong, but it seems to follow what I've read, seen and personally experienced, both in driving as well as in tuning.

 

[Stotty]

Also, positive toe improves RWD traction. However, I haven't yet looked into how front toe affects FWD traction in 2.09.

Cheers,
Simon

IME, +ve rear doesn't increase traction.

It just helps reduce the angle of oversteer when the rear wheels lose grip through wheelspin... meaning you have a bit more room for error on your throttle application.

Essentially what I'm saying, is that the Aliens don't really have a 3 part corner like us common folk. We have an entry, center and exit. Whereas they have an entry that takes them deep into the turn, an abrupt change of direction, and then they begin their straightaway. There is no 'exit' for them. Our 'exit' is simply the beginning of their straightaway. They don't really have to worry about the 'exit' of their corner (tuning wise), because in it's base form, it doesn't exist. Their entire focus(tuning wise) is on a single change of direction, with maximum front end grip, a rapid and sharp change of direction and then they're gone; which based on my theory, is all about 'turn in' meaning negative front toe, negative rear toe, and a rather loose car that can simply change direction extremely quick, nearly on the edge of a 'slide'. Like you said, nearly a drift, but the rear tires are constantly on the edge of traction, and if you watch closely in the replays, you'll actually see a slight 'slide/drift' motion on certain corners, where it actually grants them a quick, controlled 'pitch' of the car, and helps them get the nose pointed even earlier to accelerate sooner.

As I've said before, I don't consider myself an Alien, but this is exactly what I'm trying to achieve when setting up a car most of the time.

I want the car loose on turn in so it points itself at the apex as quickly as I can manage - I can then use less steering angle which allows more gas...

The amount of throttle you can use is inversely proportional to the amount of steering angle you have applied.

 

[CSLACR]

IME, +ve rear doesn't increase traction.

It just helps reduce the angle of oversteer when the rear wheels lose grip through wheelspin... meaning you have a bit more room for error on your throttle application.

Actually positive toe literally increases straight-line acceleration grip, as per test course. Negative decreases it.
It's not a huge amount, but verifiable via ghost easily.

As for cornering, it makes the car rotate more, so I'd imagine it decreases cornering traction of the rear as well.
I know it certainly and most notably lets the rear start it's motion quicker.

 

[dr_slump]

@stotty
Positive rear toe definitely increases traction. Have a look at the drag forum if you don't believe it.

 

[Stotty]

We have a drag forum? You live and learn 👍

Haven't been able to test the front toe discussion properly yet - I've had a quick go in the NSX at Motegi, but not a long enough session to be able to get in to a consistent rythnm.

I can't share all the tune I'm using as it's not mine - given the limited time, I borrowed a Takata from someone on my friends list with a very good time. The tune is using a decent amount of -ve front and +ve rear toe though (> 0.10 at both ends). I felt comfortable with it straight away, it's fast and it's reasonably stable, so it should be a great test bed.

What's absolutely clear straight away is how reducing the relative angle of rear toe makes the car turn better - be that running more -ve or running less +ve.

Reducing the +ve rear toe (net change of 0.10) made the car much easier to turn in to the 2nd part of the final chicane, but also made the car less stable when trail braking deep in to turn 1.

That was all the time I had - I only tested that because I was surprised with the level of +ve on the tune when I initially looked at it, and I wanted to feel why the original tuner had decided to run that amount (I'd usually expect him to e running -ve!).

I'll hopefully get a chance to understand the effects of front toe better tomorrow... Although I'm not a big fan of the track, Motegi actually has a good mix of corners to test the +'s and -'s of +ve and -ve

Edit

I just had an intersting 1.5 hours in the NSX at Motegi.

My starting time was a 1'46.6 from my short session last night.

Toe settings initially were -0.20 front, +0.10 rear. I left rear toe as is for the whole session and just focused on the front.

Started by running laps to get the feel back for the car, (until I was hitting regular high 46's), then changed the front to -0.10. The car didn't feel any different, but lap times became even more consistent - more as a result of running more laps than the setting change I suspect.

Increased front toe to 0.00 and almost immediately improved to 1'46.5, followed by a 46.4 a few laps later.

Increased front toe to +0.10 and improved regularly... 46.364, 46.220, 46.150, and finally a 1'46.084. During this run I hit lots of 46.2's and 46.1's.

Switched back to -0.10, and the car was definitely more difficult to drive and lap times were much less consistent. -0.10 made the turn in feel quite sudden compared to +0.10 (requiring more input to control the rear), and making the rear more suseptable to losing grip on the exits.

Had to cut the session off then as Man U v Liverpool was due to kick off.

Consulsions...
Increasing the front toe didn't feel like it increased front end grip during any phase of cornering, but it certainly made it easier to get on the gas from apex to exit. With the NSX's natural desire to rotate, there was no major downside on corner entry... I just used a slightly narrower line during the initial turn in phase.

Following the 'amount of throttle you can apply is inversely proportional to the amount of steering lock you have applied' principle... It felt to me like +ve front toe fooled the physics engine in to thinking I had less steering lock applied, allowing me to use more gas with less fear of sudden oversteer, even though I didn't feel to be using any less lock.

So, on a sample size of one car on one track with one driver, +ve front toe did enable better exit speed 👍

Obviously this needs testing further as the NSX naturally rotates really well, and requires little help to get it to turn in, so this might be specific to this car (or to MR cars in general). I'd be interested in others opinions, particularly the effect on FR cars, which tend to have a lot more turn in and mid corner understeer than MR.

2nd Edit

I thought of another idea on testing...

Take a car that specifically suffers from understeer - such as premium the JGTC GTR on race softs. Round Suzuka, this car has almost perfect traction (it only spins in 2nd exiting the Hairpin and Casio), and the limiting factor on lap times is how much front end grip you can generate as mmost of the lap you'd be on full throttle if you weren't afraid of running wide. This should be a good test of which toe angle delivers best grip through the exit phase 👍