2.500 final gear is faster, 1000m challenge

  • Thread starter sucahyo
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sucahyo

sucahyo

2,171
I think using final gear of 2.500 is faster than stock (on most car), anybody that disagree is free to comment, but its better if you have proof.

And this is my proof:
On 0-1000m test, use stock car with only transmission upgrade.
first line is default
second line using 2.500
third line is standard method

Nissan skyline R34 Vspec
autoing 12 in 3.545 final gear = 24.327
autoing 12 in 2.500 final gear = 24.138
autoing 1 in 5.500 final gear, then change final gear to 4.192 = 24.389

Toyota Supra RZ 97
autoing 12 in 3.266 final gear = 25.068
autoing 12 in 2.500 final gear = 25.052
autoing 1 in 5.500 final gear, then change final gear to 4.278 = 25.211

Honda Civic TypeR 98
autoing 5 in 4.400 final gear = 28.693
autoing 5 in 2.500 final gear = 28.452
autoing 1 in 5.500 final gear, then change final gear to 4.910 = 28.649

Lotus Elise 190
autoing 10 in 3.938 final gear = 26.140
autoing 10 in 2.500 final gear = 25.960
autoing 1 in 5.500 final gear, then change final gear to 4.708 = 26.223

Atlantique 400 GT
autoing 12 in 3.444 final gear = 22.272
autoing 12 in 2.500 final gear = 22.157
autoing 1 in 5.500 final gear, then change final gear to 4.069 = 22.290
autoing 1 in 3.590 final gear, then change final gear to 2.500 = 22.063

Ford RS 200 Rally car
autoing 5 in 4.875 final gear = 22.753
autoing 5 in 2.500 final gear = 22.476
autoing 1 in 5.500 final gear, then change final gear to 4.069 = 22.459
autoing 1 in 3.600 final gear, then change final gear to 2.500 = 22.163


Anyone that has faster time on the car tested is invited to post, please also post (or check) default gear time, to prevent any timing bug problem (I use epsxe).

I only use my way of setting gear on the 2 last car because it will be slightly slower than auto xx on 2.500 on other car, I don't do it on these car.

Using 2.500 will be slower on car that have very light flywheel (most 8500+ rpm skyline), which mean if the car is accelerate unevenly on default gear it will be worse on lower final gear. Unisia jesc skyline with 2.500 final gear will not accelerate properly, I use 5.500 to smooth the acceleration.
 
Isn't 2.500 the lowest setting for the final drive ratio? Of course it's quicker...

Of course, this is fairly well known by now; however, it may not always be useful for circuit racing, so the powerband is used in the right parts while cornering.
 
probably its because there are less shifts and the time lost running up the tall gears is less than the time lost running through 5 or 6 gears
 
Damn! How about we just call you Gearbox God from now on? Can I hire you to tune my transmissions in all my cars?!? lol
 
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pupik
Isn't 2.500 the lowest setting for the final drive ratio? Of course it's quicker...

Of course, this is fairly well known by now; however, it may not always be useful for circuit racing, so the powerband is used in the right parts while cornering.
Click to expand...

You right, I don't know that GT2Kid use it (wow, he gave a really detailed explanation https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=7334). But it seems most people in these forum don't use it (handicapping ?).

Can you tell me is the lowest final drive also faster on other gran turismo?

It is very usefull in most circuit because when you have 0.5 second faster on 1000m, 0.2 second faster in 400m, it will give you 0.3 second faster on 400-1000m.

I'm not sure about powerband, do you have method to measure it? rolling start drag race?


Impreza STi
probably its because there are less shifts and the time lost running up the tall gears is less than the time lost running through 5 or 6 gears
Click to expand...

No, because the car still shift at the same rpm or speed,
autoing 12 in 3.266 (default) final gear have the same top speed as autoing 12 in 2.500 final gear on Toyota Supra RZ 97


Parnelli Bone
Can i hire you to tune my transmissions in all my cars?!? lol
Click to expand...

You don't have to, since you are an Auto setup guy just change the final gear to 2.500 and then modify auto setting to xx to adjust the gear. You'll be faster than using stock gear or auto 1 on 5.500. Auto 25 on 5.500 is a great handicap.

My car that have the same power to weight ratio has the same gear setting (usually with 280km/h as target top speed). Setting maximum speed of each car every time your race different track is a waste of time. I rarely change it. I set my new car using power to weight ratio as guide, how about you?
 
sucahyo
You don't have to, since you are an Auto setup guy just change the final gear to 2.500 and then modify auto setting to xx to adjust the gear. You'll be faster than using stock gear or auto 1 on 5.500. Auto 25 on 5.500 is a great handicap.

My car that have the same power to weight ratio has the same gear setting (usually with 280km/h as target top speed). Setting maximum speed of each car every time your race different track is a waste of time. I rarely change it. I set my new car using power to weight ratio as guide, how about you?
Click to expand...

Hey I was just joking. Personally, I only use the full-modifyable transmission only when I absolutely have to. For most sim races you don't need personalized gear rations. I only use it during the toughest races of if a car revs out before making it to the end of a straight.

I often use power to weight ratio as a guide for sim races. I made a whole webpage devoted to it, actually. http://www.gtcarreviews.com/id22.html
 
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The transmission should be tuned around the power curve ... then adjust the final drive ratio to the track ...
 
Jmac279
The transmission should be tuned around the power curve ... then adjust the final drive ratio to the track ...
Click to expand...

Do you have test result?
Why should you adjust final drive ratio to the track?

These is what i found:
Fully tuned Lotus elise 190, using MacRoadster setting for short seattle (https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=69575&page=2&pp=20)

auto 1 on 5.500, final gear set to 4.320, max speed 228, 0-1000m time 23.006, 0-400m time 12.515

auto 1 on 3.230, final gear set to 2.500, max speed 230, 0-1000m time 22.733, 0-400m time 12.533

auto 1 on 3.790, final gear set to 2.500, max speed 270, 0-1000m time 22.701, 0-400 time 12.459


The last gear setting have the fastest top speed and acceleration.
You can get faster acceleration and faster top speed using the right gear setting, and you don't have to change your gear on different track again.
 
No, I have a knowledge of physics ... and I've also yet to be beat in any of the challenges we've had on these forums (to my knowledge at least ... I haven't been here in several months, so that may have changed), so I must be doing something right ...

Standing 1/4 mile and standing kilometer mean absolutely nothing on the track ...
 
The best way to tune a car is for a specific track. No doubt about it. I’ve got a Honda Integra Type R and was going head-to-head with a Honda Civic Type R. One of my mates has the Civic and our track for these 2 cars is Midfield. No word of a lie, we race those 2 cars for nearly 4 months now. There is always more to be done. I never ends, settings keep improving, so do lap times. Tuning is a learning process that never ends;).

Just setting 2500 final gear ratio is wrong. Not just because tracks are not just straight lines but because some cars don't even have the power to sustain such a final gear ratio even in a straight line. A 150Bhp car would do much better with a higher final drive ratio, for example.

To be honest though I have started track tuning in GT3 and I've leaned a lot and gathered a lot of information. But I think I'm just scratching the surface. Try any, I mean any suggested tune on this forum on a track. Then do your own tune based on nothing but track testing. The results will shock you. It's an eye-opener:).

I play a lot of multiplayer races and in order to compete with other good players I know I have to do that. It can seem quite boring that I have only around 50 cars so far and I bought GT4 on release day. I have a setting for every car and for every track though and that makes them very special.
 
Jmac279
No, I have a knowledge of physics ... and I've also yet to be beat in any of the challenges we've had on these forums (to my knowledge at least ... I haven't been here in several months, so that may have changed), so I must be doing something right ...

Standing 1/4 mile and standing kilometer mean absolutely nothing on the track ...
Click to expand...

Welcome back Jmac! You, HYBRIDLVR, liam2maps, and FlameWonky have all returned to the great GT2 forum. :)

I agree. Look at the Shelby Series 1. It's gearing is so tall (including final drive) it's imperative to get it dialed in for the actual race tracks, not just for more flexibility out of corners but also for more excitement. I prefer most of my rear-drive machines to be able to display a bit of smoke when pushed.
 
Cobra_UK
Just setting 2500 final gear ratio is wrong. Not just because tracks are not just straight lines but because some cars don't even have the power to sustain such a final gear ratio even in a straight line. A 150Bhp car would do much better with a higher final drive ratio, for example.
Click to expand...

Not true.
I try using Toyota corolla levin GT Apex (Type II,J) '85, with these mods
full cust gearbox
tripple plate clutch
racing flywheel
carbon prop shaft
NA tune - Stage 1
Racing Muffler
150hp, 925kg

These is what I got
auto 3 on 2.500
max speed = 197
0-1000m = 27.830
0-400m = 15.451
0-100km/h = 07.410
0-180km/h = 22.975
100-180 = 15.565

auto 3 on 5.500
max speed = 197
0-1000m = 28.353
0-400m = 15.692
0-100km/h = 07.803
0-180km/h = 24.772
100-180 = 16.969

auto 1 on 5.500, FD to 4.950
max speed = 197
0-1000m = 28.243
0-400m = 15.647
0-100km/h = 07.803
0-180km/h = 24.484
100-180 = 16.681


time advantage of using
auto 3 on 5.500 : auto 1 on 5.500, FD to 4.950 : auto 3 on 2.500

1000m drag = reff : -0.11 : -0.523
400m drag = reff : -0.045 : -0.241
0-100km/h = reff : 0 : -0.393
0-180km/h = reff : -0.288 : -1.797
100-180 = reff : -0.288 : -1.404

notice 100-180 number, it means using auto on lowest final drive will give you faster corner exit acceleration. I choose 100 as the speed when cornering, and 180 as the speed before braking again after straight. Using lowest final drive has the most advantage on full drive train upgrade.


Jmac279
I've actually done a bunch of posts on this subject if you want to search for them.
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showpost.php?p=1573114&postcount=9
Click to expand...
You really gave detailed explanation 👍 !
But sadly, I can not understand it very well.

BTW, on what car do you use these setting ?
https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?p=1620995&highlight=final#post1620995
 
I believe those settings were for the Spoon Integra ...

What don't you understand ? I can try to explain those parts differently ...
 
Jmac279
What don't you understand ? I can try to explain those parts differently ...
Click to expand...

Can you summarized it ?
From what I know, comparing these gear config (car with 5 gear setup):
xx|xx
xx|xx
xx|xx
xx|xx
xx|xx

to:
|xxxx
x|xxx
xx|xx
xxx|x
xxxx|

the last one will make the gear start at higher rpm than the first one when changing gear using auto gear change.

What gear configuration did you suggest (ignoring final drive)?

From those post I assume that Skyline GTR R32 is better than GTR R33 in acceleration using auto gear change, correct ? (see attachments, r32 '91, R33 '97, R33 '95).

About spoon integra
how do you set your gear ?
1st - 3.071
2nd - 2.170
3rd - 1.780
4th - 1.460
5th - 1.198
Final - 3.250
Auto - 1 (Final to 5.5 then Auto to 1)

Because using auto 1 on 5.500 will give max 1.163 on 5th gear.
I plan to try your setting on 2.500 final drive using the same gear config
 

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sucahyo
Not true.
Click to expand...

Hehehe

Listen, seriously, racing is not about straight lines and it's about circuits. Suspension settings differ and so do the upgrades that take a car to a certain Bhp, as such what you're saying is not written in stone anyway. Rather than take so much time to study 0.2s difference between 2 settings over a distance of 400m you may want to do some track testing. Spend enough time on Trial Mountain (for example) and you may find your own best settings, suited to your driving style, your suspension settings and your upgrades. Then you may get pretty close to your perfect setup for that track. But that will always improve anyway, there is no perfection in tuning. There is no black and white in tuning, just shades of grey.;)

In essence, by just saying a Final Gear of 2500 is best you're trying to make an exact art of an infinite equation. Stop wasting your time and do something more constructive. Lower the equation’s x/y/z. Like: What's the best setup for a 200Bhp Honda Type R around High Speed Ring, POST YOUR SETUP AND TIME. :dopey:
 
Cobra_UK
Listen, seriously, racing is not about straight lines and it's about circuits.
In essence, by just saying a Final Gear of 2500 is best you're trying to make an exact art of an infinite equation. Stop wasting your time and do something more constructive. Lower the equation’s x/y/z.
Click to expand...

I know, what I am trying to tell is:
- with all setting the same, auto 1 on 2.500 is faster than auto 1 on 5.500
- Stop using useless "auto 1 on 5.500 final drive then change the final drive to whatever speed you need", using auto "to whatever speed you need" on 2.500 is better.
- using lower final gear has the same effect as having lighter flywheel

Since I have bad cornering ability, I can not measure it on track myself, because I don't have consistent lap time

For car setting, I usually make my car driveable on all track, without too many changing gear setting

My standard setting:
Springs: 2.0/2.0 depend on short seattle, deep forest and trial mountain
Height: min/max depend on short seattle, deep forest and trial mountain
Damper Bound: 1/1 depend on short seattle, deep forest and trial mountain
Damper Rebound: 1/1 depend on short seattle, deep forest and trial mountain
Camber: 0.0/0.0 depend on drive train
Toe: 0.00/0.00 depend on drive train
Stabilizers: 7/7 for all my car

Brakes: 12/12 for all my car

Gears: my way

Downforce: max/max for all my car

LSD : 17/19/17 for all my car
 
I see, well I'm happy it works for you mate.

I find that for me around a track doing it the old fashioned way works best. I don't doubt your research and I have done plenty of it myself. I guess it's down to personal preference and driving style. :)
 
Cobra_UK
The best way to tune a car is for a specific track. No doubt about it. I’ve got a Honda Integra Type R and was going head-to-head with a Honda Civic Type R. One of my mates has the Civic and our track for these 2 cars is Midfield. No word of a lie, we race those 2 cars for nearly 4 months now.
Click to expand...

Try using this gear setting: auto 10 on 2.500 final drive. Then tell me if you become slower or faster than your friend.

Cobra_UK
I find that for me around a track doing it the old fashioned way works best. I don't doubt your research and I have done plenty of it myself. I guess it's down to personal preference and driving style. :)
Click to expand...

Yes, I agree.
But I still don't know why everyone keep saying that 1000m or 400m time is not important in track. Then how do you know how fast your gear setting is? Do you even notice when your gear is slower than stock?

My method is:
-pick a corner (left uphill on short seattle)
-write down your cornering speed (100km/h)
-write down your speed when you reach next corner (160km/h)
-need to test 100 to 160 time
-pick another corner (last corner on short seattle)
-write down your cornering speed (110km/h)
-write down your speed when you reach next corner (245km/h)
-need to test 110 to 245 time
-take the car to max speed test
-using pause button, note the time when the speed reach: 100, 110, 160, 245
-calculate 100-160 time and 110-245 time
-compare the time using different gear setting

From what I know, those 100-160 and 110-245 time is proportional to 1000m and 400m time. Better 1000m and 400m time will give better 100-160 or 110-245 time.
 
Jmac279
The transmission should be tuned around the power curve ... then adjust the final drive ratio to the track ...
Click to expand...
I agree 👍 even if sometimes i have the need of a small adjustment to a specific gear, to avoid having to gear up just before braking to a specific corner...

Auto gear doesn't keep the car in the best rpms... 👎
 
MacRoadster
Auto gear doesn't keep the car in the best rpms... 👎
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Yes, me too. But I am too lazy to change it on every track, I usually do with short auto.

BTW which gear config di you use?

xx|xx . |xxxx . xxxx| . xxxx| . |xxxx .
xx|xx . x|xxx . xxx|x . xx|xx . xx|xx .
xx|xx . xx|xx . xx|xx . |xxxx . xxxx| .
xx|xx . xxx|x . x|xxx . xx|xx . xx|xx .
xx|xx . xxxx| . |xxxx . xxxx| . |xxxx .
 
sucahyo
BTW which gear config di you use?

xx|xx . |xxxx . xxxx| . xxxx| . |xxxx .
xx|xx . x|xxx . xxx|x . xx|xx . xx|xx .
xx|xx . xx|xx . xx|xx . |xxxx . xxxx| .
xx|xx . xxx|x . x|xxx . xx|xx . xx|xx .
xx|xx . xxxx| . |xxxx . xxxx| . |xxxx .
Click to expand...

2nd one, and in some powerful cars it's more like...
|xxxx
|xxxx
xx|xx
xxx|x
xxxx|

Long 1st (and sometimes 2nd) gears to avoid wheelspin, 6th gear at max power rpm at the track's fastest point (top speed), and other gears according to the engine torque/power curves.
 
I use an equation I set up in Excel to set my gears ... I don't just pick random points on the scale ...
 
Jmac279
I use an equation I set up in Excel to set my gears ... I don't just pick random points on the scale ...
Click to expand...

For car with highest hp on highest rpm which do you prefer:
- higher gear start at much higher rpm
- higher gear start at little higher rpm
- higher gear start at higher rpm depend on the steepness of hp curve
- higher gear start at higher rpm depend on the steepness of tourqe curve
- higher gear start at the same rpm

do you set 2nd gear start at tourqe highest or hp rising?

What gear config do you use on Toyota Aristo V300?


on castrol supra '99?


Do you use early shifting or normal shifting on this supra ?
 

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