2 player and 3D?

[GT cruiser]

First if this is another topic, sorry about this post.

My idea came to me last night when I was playing a split screen game of prologue with my son. I got to thinking about how the glasses allow two images to be generated and seen through two separate eyes. What if on the other hand it was used to create two full size 2d images, one of each players screen and allowed full screen 2player on the same ps3 and television. I would just like to know if this going to be possible on the hardware as it stands now and if people would really use such a feature? I know I would because I love to game with my son, especially in GT. Anyways it's just a brain fart and wanted to share it with everyone here, and see what all of you think.

 

[TokyoDrift]

Now, that's a really good idea, and I can easily see it working for smaller, less complex games. However, for something like GT5, I don't think the PS3 would have the processing power to render two completely separate game environments, even in 720p, without a significant loss of detail.

 

[RAVELLRON]

its the same, only because is a split screen doesn't mean that 3d must be processed in separate ways...
the real problem could be, the fps, all we know that in split screen every game is rendered with a different and poor graphic respect the single game, but here the split screen mode must refresh in 120hz constantly...
this is the real problem..

 

[HN7]

The tech you are talking is already being worked on. I remember at CES last year they were showing something like that. Each person wearing a different pair of glasses that can see different image on the screen. They were showing a racing game actually. I think it was Texas Instrument that working on it.
EDIT: I found the video. It's called Dual View

 

[TokyoDrift]

its the same, only because is a split screen doesn't mean that 3d must be processed in separate ways...
the real problem could be, the fps, all we know that in split screen every game is rendered with a different and poor graphic respect the single game, but here the split screen mode must refresh in 120hz constantly...
this is the real problem..

The same as what, the processing required to render a game in 3D? Not based on what I've read, which I have to say has mostly been in these forums so may not be correct.

Yes, both would need to render at 120Hz, but the difference between 3D and split-screen is that with 3D, you only have one game environment to deal with so can use tricks to render the two scenes, but with split screen you haven two completely separate game environments to render. This is why split-screen is usually lower in detail in order to keep the frame rate up.

 

[Sam48]

On a recent Top Gear episode, a Range rover Jeramy tested had a monitor on the dash. The monitor had the ability to let the driver see the GPS (or sat nav if your from anywhere else in the world), while at the same time the passenger could watch a movie. It all depended on what angel you looked at it from. Maybe they could incorporate that kind of tech into TV's.

 

[Seismica]

Heres hoping...

At least if this feature was included, 3D would actually have a use, rather than just being a gimmick.

I hate splitscreen, it always cuts parts of the screen off, or stretches the image across half of the screen so it always ends up distorted or with a poor view.

 

[Mr Latte]

First if this is another topic, sorry about this post.

My idea came to me last night when I was playing a split screen game of prologue with my son. I got to thinking about how the glasses allow two images to be generated and seen through two separate eyes. What if on the other hand it was used to create two full size 2d images, one of each players screen and allowed full screen 2player on the same ps3 and television. I would just like to know if this going to be possible on the hardware as it stands now and if people would really use such a feature? I know I would because I love to game with my son, especially in GT. Anyways it's just a brain fart and wanted to share it with everyone here, and see what all of you think.

What your suggesting is that player 1 is left eye, player 2 is right eye from a 3D output allowing seperate screens of information.

Technically yes thats probably possible on the output part however I dont think its possible for individual glasses to accept different signals. Basically whatever output the TV was sending for the glasses then all glasses would get that same and not individual output. What you would need is "Player 1 Glasses 2x Left Eye" and "Player 2 Glasses 2x Right Eye".

Lets hope GT5 does include a proper game LAN mode that way you and your son can really enjoy the game for the little expense a 2nd hand PS3 and additional screen might cost.

 

[Ollie1066]

On a recent Top Gear episode, a Range rover Jeramy tested had a monitor on the dash. The monitor had the ability to let the driver see the GPS (or sat nav if your from anywhere else in the world), while at the same time the passenger could watch a movie. It all depended on what angel you looked at it from. Maybe they could incorporate that kind of tech into TV's.

Was thinkning of exactly the same thing Seems to make sense in my head if the two players sat at different angles to the screen,.

 

[GT cruiser]

What your suggesting is that player 1 is left eye, player 2 is right eye from a 3D output allowing seperate screens of information.

Technically yes thats probably possible on the output part however I dont think its possible for individual glasses to accept different signals. Basically whatever output the TV was sending for the glasses then all glasses would get that same and not individual output. What you would need is "Player 1 Glasses 2x Left Eye" and "Player 2 Glasses 2x Right Eye".

Lets hope GT5 does include a proper game LAN mode that way you and your son can really enjoy the game for the little expense a 2nd hand PS3 and additional screen might cost.

I totally agree LAN and another rig would be the best solution in my case, but my wife thoroughly disagrees. I'm still cringing from when I threw that idea at her about a week ago. although when she sees the price of a new 3dtv compared an older tv and a new/used ps3 and wheel I bet I only get half of a dirty scowl.

 

[Gaz Vonhammer]

wouldn't the problem be how many frames it would need to render? 3D in single player does each frame twice,like it does in 2 player mode.Even though it would be the same screen wouldn't it need to do each players veiw twice,effectively needing a 4 player mode?

 

[Mr Latte]

I totally agree LAN and another rig would be the best solution in my case, but my wife thoroughly disagrees. I'm still cringing from when I threw that idea at her about a week ago. although when she sees the price of a new 3dtv compared an older tv and a new/used ps3 and wheel I bet I only get half of a dirty scowl.

Let er get her hair done and a new outfit = evens 👍

 

[JDMKING13]

Let er get her hair done and a new outfit = evens 👍

Dont forget about the purse

 

[Seismica]

This technology is not new.

Infact I seem to remember seeing something similar being shown back in 2008. It was in the experimental stages then.

Just to remind thise who are bringing up the hardware, 3D already processes two different images at the same time. I firmly believe that what is proposed in this thread will only use around the same amount of processing power because it is still only 2 images being displayed onscreen. The extra processing power required for two sets of physics calculations will also effect splitscreen as well as dual vision.

 

[yesbossdodd]

Seismica - If you watch the video it sounds like it was from 2007 or early 2008 at the latest so yes the idea of the tchnology is not new but have we seen it implemented??? I WISH!!! This is definitely something that should be looked at for GT6 (The list for GT5 isalready WAAAAAY too big hehe) I can see technology like this coming a bit quicker though, if 3DTV kicks off the way I don't think it will.

Time will tell I guess, there are many options for the 3d/alternative perspective tv's and the one mentioned in the land rover is just one of them, think of those old school hologram pictures depending on the viewing angle you would see a diferent image. The technology is there it's just down to the developers to implement it in the best way (probably the most cost effective way though hehe)

Just my six eggs, comments/abuse welcome!!

 

[GT cruiser]

Dont forget about the purse

PLEASE, do not suggest another flipping purse........ if I accessorized with guns like she does purses and shades I'd be on a watch list for sure...... HAHAHA


Back on topic thoughts: So it seems it would be more of an issue with the T.V. and its ability control the shutters on the glasses as independent units, beyond any hangups with the ps3 of course. That would have a bright side too though just imagine a 3d tv with "dual vision", dual tuner, dual wireless earphones and dual remotes! Presto world peace, or at the very least the kids will finally shut up about what's on the tube. I can't help but feel like I just gave some corporation the idea to save 3d tv before it fails.

 

[Rattlehead]

If the game already supports 3D image, it's pretty much possible to create such "split-screen without split" =)
3D is confirmed for GT5, so it is capable of rendering 2 independent frames for each eye, which can be changed to 2 independent images for each player. The only difference is that player's active shutter glasses must change their refreshing mode from "Left-Right" to "Player 1-Player 2". That way they'll see corresponding images of their game.

 

[TokyoDrift]

OK, I'm not so clued up on this whole 3D thing, so maybe Mr Latte can help.

Basically, if 3D is rendering two frames, one for each eye, does that require double the processing power, or are there tricks that they can use to reduce the overhead? I now pose the same question regarding the "player 1" and "player 2" scenario.

I would have thought that rendering two completely independent frames for two players would be more intensive than two similar frames required for 3D, but like I said, I've no idea really.

 

[hinklor]

Technically all they'd have to do is render player 1's view to the left channel, and player 2's view to the right channel, and output it as a regular 3D stream. Then you would need 2 new pairs of glasses though, one with 2 left eye shutters and one with 2 right eye shutters. This would however give you some flickering as you are only seeing every other frame.

I like the idea though, I sure as hell hate the small viewing area in splitscreen matches.

 

[TokyoDrift]

Technically all they'd have to do is render player 1's view to the left channel, and player 2's view to the right channel, and output it as a regular 3D stream. Then you would need 2 new pairs of glasses though, one with 2 left eye shutters and one with 2 right eye shutters. This would however give you some flickering as you are only seeing every other frame.

I like the idea though, I sure as hell hate the small viewing area in splitscreen matches.

Right, but my question kinda' relates to the power needed to render those two frames. Are two frames needed for 3D equivalent to two frames needed for the 2 player scenario? The only reason I ask is that for 3D, although there are two frames being rendered, they are similar. With 2 player, you are having to deal with two completely different frames.

As for the flicker, you would still be rendering 60fps for each player, so I doubt you would notice.

 

[hinklor]

Right, but my question kinda' relates to the power needed to render those two frames. Are two frames needed for 3D equivalent to two frames needed for the 2 player scenario? The only reason I ask is that for 3D, although there are two frames being rendered, they are similar.

Even though they are similar, it is still rendered from 2 different camera angles, so there is a double calculation of lighting etc. However I can imagine the amount of textures and models that are loaded into the memory are indeed a lot less than 2 players at different locations on the track, which is also the case in splitscreen play. I've seen some splitscreen games stutter when a lot is happening on both views.

I'm sure it would take more processing power, but if 3D works, I reckon your idea should work too. It would probably need a lot of testing and optimizing to be smooth...

On the subject of flicker. Bare in mind that for every X amount of time you see a frame, you will also see X amount of time of black while your partner gets his frame because of the L-R-L-R... way 3D works. Which is not the case with 3D, one of your eyes will be catching either a left or right image at all times.

 

[TokyoDrift]

Even though they are similar, it is still rendered from 2 different camera angles, so there is a double calculation of lighting etc. However I can imagine the amount of textures and models that are loaded into the memory are indeed a lot less than 2 players at different locations on the track, which is also the case in splitscreen play. I've seen some splitscreen games stutter when a lot is happening on both views.

I'm sure it would take more processing power, but if 3D works, I reckon your idea should work too. It would probably need a lot of testing and optimizing to be smooth...

On the subject of flicker. Bare in mind that for every X amount of time you see a frame, you will also see X amount of time of black while your partner gets his frame because of the L-R-L-R... way 3D works. Which is not the case with 3D, one of your eyes will be catching either a left or right image at all times.

Yeah, it's an intersting one (although not my idea), and you are right about the way the eyes will catch the frames.

 

[Stonemonkey]

To be able to do this it would have to be taken care of in the initial design of the glasses and the hardware to control the glasses that's in the TV. If it's not built into the design and there is no way of doing some sort of firmware update within the glasses and TV then it wouldn't be possible.
Similarly, it wouldn't work with polarized 3D TV systems unless you're able to remove and replace the lenses in the glasses so instead of having two pairs with left+right lenses you have one pair with left+left lenses and one pair with right+right lenses.
As for being able to draw, yeah, there's a bit more work involved in doing two renders from different players viewpoints than in doing the stereoscopic renders, it's more comparable to splitscreen but with double the pixels to fill.
I like it though, it's a nice idea and not hard to actually implement but it's something the TV manufacturers would have to get together with the console makers and the game developers to work on so maybe if someone from Sony spots your idea you might see it creeping into some TV specs.. and er specs.

 

[witham]

I know this thread is a bit well unuased but didn't want to start a new one anywasy sony showcased GT5 3d today techradar had a bit to say bout it
Gran Turismo – the don of racing games – simply looked amazing; from the cockpit display and speed dial, to the lovingly rendered cars and tracks. This is a game that could truly benefit from 3D.
Read more: http://www.techradar.com/news/gaming/consoles/hands-on-playstation-3-3d-review-695522#ixzz0qSuwoTS3

not much really but maybe 3d might be worth the extra wait well for some of us with 3d tvs

 

[hinklor]

Digging up an old thread here. But today i read Sony patented "Stereoscopic screen sharing" which is exactly what we were talking about here... Guess your idea wasnt so crazy afterall

source: http://www.brokemycontroller.com/ne...atents-related-to-stereoscopic-screen-sharing

 

[ADEuk]

Would be nice if they could use the two video outputs of the PS3 to display each screen. HDMI for player 1 and analogue for player 2

 

[FlareKR]

Maybe they won't have 3D for split-screen.
That's good that you brought it up, never thought of that before, then again, never thought of getting a 3D TV either, unless by some chance a rich long lost uncle dies or I win the lotto!
Let's see what the wizards at PD can do.

 

[Griffith500]

Would be nice if they could use the two video outputs of the PS3 to display each screen. HDMI for player 1 and analogue for player 2

That's a good idea, but would require the interface between the frame buffer and these ports to switch it's output every other frame - that might need more than just a firmware update! Maybe they'd planned ahead, who knows?

As for this screen sharing: brilliant! I like GT cruiser's logical extension to ordinary watching of telly, with two separate tuners - you, sir, have a knack for "bigger-picture" thinking! 👍


In terms of pixels to fill, there should be no difference between 2 x 60 Hz 1080p (shared screen) and 2 x 60 Hz 1080p (stereoscopic 3D).

The rendering process is more than just pixels, though. The advantage with 3D, as Stonemonkey alluded to, is that the two viewpoints are virtually right next to each other, so there is only slight differences in the objects that need to be rendered, hence they probably share the same "scene graph" (or whatever, I might have this term confused; I mean, they access the same buffer that stores all the locations of all the polygons + vertices, which ones are occluded / hidden, lighting information etc. and only re-check those which were "borderline" - similar to how adaptive anti aliasing works, I imagine.)


With 2-player "split-screen", the viewpoints are very different, and require a whole separate record of which objects to draw etc. This is done already in split screen, and always incurs a drop in quality (omission of trackside objects, mainly) so a similar approach to screen sharing could be used. The code (graphics engine) just needs to be optimised to deal with such a situation; i.e. switching viewpoints (and hence, scene info) every other frame, as opposed to during a single frame (as I presume is the normal way of tackling split-screen, so to make use of overlapping portions of each scene).

What would be cool, to draw on GT cruiser's idea again, is to have wireless headsets that have your specific audio only. (Gran Turismo already has a "two listener" capable audio engine; although in GT2, this was turned off for the replays.) It always annoyed me when I could only hear my opponents car, because his engine / exhaust sound cut right through mine. I remember choosing a car based on the sound, and whether or not I would be able to hear when to change gear!

 

[Rocker]

As for the flicker, you would still be rendering 60fps for each player, so I doubt you would notice.

Sounds good. Should work. Even works great on the drawing board... but I will bet dollars to donuts it's one of those things where theory and reality collide, in a not pretty way.

 

[witham]

Maybe we may see sony's new tech they have just patented which uses 3d to show diffent things for players in different positions which allows full screen split screen, as the player on the left sees his car full screen and the play on the right sees his car full screen. It is a bit like land rovers sat nav thing.