2011 Jetta: Newer and cheaper

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I thought it was an Audi.... It's like, a Scirocco front + A4 back + Kia Optima side = Ultimate failure. Sorry VW this is extremely wrong...
 
Enough with the Audi stuff already. The only thing less original than VW's design department seems to be GTP...

But you have undoubtedly criticized people for buying more than what you think they need. What other conclusion would any reasonable person draw other than you don't think they should do it??

So let's go thought it one step at a time.

People who "drop sprogs"

AND DO NOT carry adults around every day

AND buy big minivans rather than a Jetta sized vehicle

ARE fat, can't stop breeding and daft.

How is this putting words in your mouth?

More fool you for taking what I wrote extremely literally, rather than largely tongue-in-cheek. Indeed, even your first reply to me seemed to make light of my comment, but since then you've decided that I think anyone buying something bigger than a Jetta is an uncontrollably breeding moron with a lawnmower obsession. Or so it seems...

But you don't know if either is true, unless you ask them. So why pass judgement, particularly a negative one before you have the facts?

Because that's human nature, believe it or not.

Do you enjoy it when people ask if you are gay, a hairdresser, or both?

I tell them to keep their back to the wall if they're going to make comments like that around me...

How often does a vehicle have to be used in a manner for which is it expressly designed before it is "justified"?

Er, at least reasonably often otherwise there is no justification in buying such a vehicle. You wouldn't buy a Semi unless you wanted to haul stuff so why would you buy a multi-purpose vehicle unless you planned to use it for multiple purposes?...

If I see you driving down a road in a non-enthusiastic manner within the speed limit with the top up, can I then conclude you can't justify owning a sports car?

More realistic than your last comment but equally obtuse and not particularly relevant to the discussion. Owning any car is limited by the laws in the region in which you drive it... Chances are that if I'm not driving my sports car enthusiastically, it's because I don't really feel like bombing through a city crowded with pedestrians and other cars...

I borrowed the Ford because I had to, not because I wanted to.

So why drive a minivan unless you had to? Because I sure as hell can't see why people would want to.

In my estimation, the benefits of something like a Murano far outweigh the cons. Situations like this simply reinforce my conclusion.

A Murano isn't necessarily excessive though, and it certainly has qualities above and beyond the average minivan. The 350Z engine is one such quality, the looks are another.

I've not stopped justifying my comments with logic, and indeed the only proper comments stronger than repeatedly saying "a Jetta would do for most situations" are the ones you blew out of proportion...

When you questioned why an average family would need something larger?

It didn't take much reading between the lines to work out I was referring to minivans and the like rather than something with a few more inches legroom and a slightly bigger boot...

Fallacy of Distraction. A minivan driver can also be happy and content 100% of the time behind the wheel, safe in the knowledge that if they needed to carry lots of people or something larger and heavy, they could. Just like you enjoy knowing that if you want to, you could drive at the limits of adhesion and have a bit of fun.

But how often do they? Really? That's the point I'm making. I still maintain: Most people could probably get by pretty well with less. I'm not saying they have to, I'm not saying that I'll point a gun towards the next Renault Espace I see driving down the road with one person out of seven seats, I'm saying that if people used a bit of common sense, many would realise that something like a minivan is essentially just a waste of metal, fuel and space.

You still have more capacity than you can use on a daily basis.

Not really. Like I said, multifaceted vs. non-multifaceted. I can drive as slowly as I like but if the roof is down then the journey will still be fun. Even to the point where I get a buzz just knowing what I'm driving.

Unless you want to me believe that sports cars should be enjoyed nowhere near the limits of their performance envelope.

Which is like saying minivans should be only lightly loaded at any time.

Sports cars can be enjoyed near their limits, but they can also be enjoyed nowhere near their limits. A minivan can carry lots of people, but when it's empty it's just carrying it's own ass about. It's like being a builder and wearing your toolbelt away from work too. It's great when you need your hammer to hand, but when you're sitting on the bog or trying to get cosy with the 'Missus it becomes a literal and metaphorical pain in the ass.

Yes, I obviously wouldn't know the first thing about appreciating sports cars.

C'mon dude.
Congratulations on again taking my comment completely literally, rather than understanding it as a vehicle to carry my point...

I changed a few words around and got this:

A sports car? Designed specifically to stretch one's penis? Not exactly multifaceted, is it really? It therefore stands to reason that unless you're using it to at least most of it's potential most of the time, you could pretty easily get by with something slower, cheaper and more practical.

The point is not to mock you, but rather illustrate that it is very easy to second guess and criticize the choices people make.

Very clever. But also fallacious, as your "penis extention" jab is quite close to the bone (pun intended). Though it's not the reason I bought one (honest), a large part of owning a sports car is the appeal of the way it makes you feel, and if that's to make up for a lack in other personal areas then it's still fulfilling it's purpose.

An MPV has one, at most two purposes. To carry people, and stuff. When it is doing those things it is literally no better than the aforementioned toolbelt, that loses it's worth the second it isn't being used to complete a job.

You bought a Miata because all the benefits of owning one outweigh the penalties. "Fat" and "daft" people buy minivans because of the same reason. So why the scorn, mockery and criticism?

I've already explained why you're wide of the mark in interpreting my comments, but if you must know, the scorn, mockery and criticism are the most entertaining way for me to get my point across.

I find it tends to work better than being deeply offended on others' behalf, or interpreting every word someone types literally.

HFS, you do understand we don't get insurance premiums and tax rates based on engine size and such? And owning a car is much much cheaper here than there?

Yes. And yes.

Because you make it sound like I'd be insane to buy an E39 540i later this year unless I had 2 teenagers and a wife. But guess what, I probably will. And I'll own several cars. Why? Because I can. Because this America and I won't get taxed more for owning 3 cars (well, minus $40 annually for licensing) and my insurance premiums won't really go up either.

Basically, there is no real waste of resources to get a Minivan that get 27mpg versus a Jetta that gets 32mpg when you use that extra capacity more often. Plus, in America, we tend to drive a bit more, and aren't a rock in the North Atlantic that you drive across in a day. Pretty sure most families would find it easier to have 2 kids in the back of a minivan, with TV screens and space for 7 hours of driving, than getting their seats kicked because the Jetta is tiny.

Expand your god damn thinking out of the "America is wasteful" mindset. It is moving from cute to insulting and you aren't making many friends at the moment with it

I'm happy for you. Genuinely. If my life goes to plan, I'll even end up moving to the States at some point. I'll probably even buy something with a V8, and I'll damn well drive it as it's meant to be driven.

I'm slightly disappointed that you haven't yet gleaned from my many posts that I'm slightly more than a one-dimensional, tree-hugging, sheep-buggering hippy who wants nothing more than the whole world to hold hands and a brand new Prius in front of my solar-powered flat. And that I actually love cars as much as the rest of you, and that with any luck I'll be a motoring journalist in the next few years.

Because if there's two things in life I love, it's driving cars, and writing about the things.

So I'll forgive you if you've missed that in me in my last seven thousand-odd posts, but you might be the only one.

So please, do give me more credit than being some ill-informed, America-hating eco-Nazi, and please do feel free to go back and read my posts again with all this in mind, and understand that I'm just saying that a Jetta is a perfectly reasonable family car and I reckon that most people could happily use one as such.

And making or breaking friendships is the least of my worries, thanks. However much M-Spec and I disagree, our discussions have always been in hushed voices as it were, and I expect they'll continue to do so. It's of little consequence to me if I'm rocking the boat occasionally and people are getting their poor little toes wet.

Any more questions?
 
Never really took you as an America Hating Eco Nazi. But okay...

And I really put some thought into what I'd want to comfortably manage a family. If you have 2 kids (fairly standard deal for a family) and they have friends, you can't haul them + their goons around in a Jetta. Or if they develop a hobby that involves stuff, like a guitar or drums or robotics or astronomy or painting or camping etc, you'll want space for that equipment. And in anything but an urban environment, travel distances are enough that you can't just walk to school or practice.

Yes, a family can function with a Jetta or similar size car. It will have some serious growing pains and handling children's social lives will require some serious planning and thought. Or a great deal of inconvenience to you and them.

As for your tongue in cheek remarks, they were funny. At first, then you didn't let them go and it just went from haha to annoying post after post. Would be comparable to me making the comment on the bad teeth, clearly a result of inbreeding from being an island nation, every post I made regarding the UK.
 
In that case, I apologise for not giving you a bit of credit, but your comments did seem rather tactless.

As for repeating my own comments, it wouldn't have been necessary had the comments I made earlier not been taken out of proportion. I thought my point was fairly clear and didn't need to be repeated, and I'd certainly have been happy enough had I not needed to repeat myself several times, but alas it was necessary.

And as for kids social lives, that part I cannot empathise with. Though I had a perfectly active social life as a kid, all my friends lived within perhaps a mile of me (as was my school) so I rarely had to trouble my parents to cart myself and all my paraphernalia about.
 
Good, then we're all agreed and the Jetta thread can stop getting more excitement than is natural.
Yeah dude, the Jetta is SO boring that they'd rather talk about yellow teeth and the long walk to school. How many Mexicans you can put in a minivan. I swear, I've seen 13 get out of a Plymouth Voyager one time, and no lie, that sucker was burning some mad oil. I labeled the stereotype from a mile down the road, and lo and behold I was right on the money.

Oh, right, the Jetta...
 
I lost respect for the Jetta when my bro's friend's Jetta's transmission fell on our driveway...twice actually.
 
Good, then we're all agreed and the Jetta thread can stop getting more excitement than is natural.

Wait until the wagon shows up. I'll make sure this is a mad house again.

MUAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
 
I wonder if they will wagonize this. The current wagon is just a Golf estate. I think the last one was too? I wouldn't be too surprised to see them continue to offer the Golf Plus as the Jetta wagon here. Although I think consumers would be completely confused as to why the Jetta wagon didn't look like a Jetta and did look like a Golf...
 
The Mk4 Jetta(/Bora) estate was basically identical to the Golf estate apart from the headlights. They sold the Bora one in continental Europe but not the Golf estate, and sold the Golf estate in the UK, but the Bora wasn't offered. No sense in selling both in both places I guess, but it seems a little nonsensical that they offered identical cars with different headlights. The Golf and Bora were differentiated by their bodystyle. When you make the body the same, they sort of lose their identity...
 
I wonder if they will wagonize this. The current wagon is just a Golf estate.

Correct, it is still the MKV Golf Estate, and based on what I've heard, they have no intention of giving us an MKVI-based car. But, we do get the MKVI grille on the front, albeit a Golf front end. That makes me wonder if they'll change the name?
 
I lost respect for the Jetta when my bro's friend's Jetta's transmission fell on our driveway...twice actually.

I'm sorry...but what sort of hacked-together lemon did your brother's friend buy? No car should do that, not even a VW.

Sounds like it was put together from several cars, and someone forgot a few pieces...

Also, I believe I saw a Golf/Jetta estate/SportWagen (the US marketing department. :rolleyes:)) on the road a few months ago, possibly a test car. I admit, I could have been mistaken...
 
I'm sorry...but what sort of hacked-together lemon did your brother's friend buy? No car should do that, not even a VW.

Sounds like it was put together from several cars, and someone forgot a few pieces...

Also, I believe I saw a Golf/Jetta estate/SportWagen (the US marketing department. :rolleyes:)) on the road a few months ago, possibly a test car. I admit, I could have been mistaken...

I was getting the feeling that he got the bad car of the lot...but when it fell a second time, I'm hesitant on VWs.

In all honesty those idiots at the dealership could have messed it up big time also.
 
More fool you for taking what I wrote extremely literally, rather than largely tongue-in-cheek. Indeed, even your first reply to me seemed to make light of my comment, but since then you've decided that I think anyone buying something bigger than a Jetta is an uncontrollably breeding moron with a lawnmower obsession. Or so it seems...

Yes, that was silly of me. I thought you might say what you mean, and mean what you say. I also thought I could have an interesting debate without having to step through a bunch of smarmy remarks, revisionist backpedaling and self-conscious posturing. Looks like I gave you too much credit. Won't happen again, though.

Because that's human nature, believe it or not.

I tell them to keep their back to the wall if they're going to make comments like that around me...

Pot, meet kettle.

Er, at least reasonably often otherwise there is no justification in buying such a vehicle. You wouldn't buy a Semi unless you wanted to haul stuff so why would you buy a multi-purpose vehicle unless you planned to use it for multiple purposes?...

Do you own a screwdriver? Or a torch?

Are you using them right now? Probably not.

But tools have value even when they're not being used --they're convenient to have when you DO need them. An empty minivan, like a screwdriver, a toilet, a spare tire, an insurance policy, a 'friend with benefits' or nuclear weapons, is STILL performing it's function: to be available when the need arises.

You make a tool belt analogy later on. I cover this in my reply to that.

More realistic than your last comment but equally obtuse and not particularly relevant to the discussion. Owning any car is limited by the laws in the region in which you drive it... Chances are that if I'm not driving my sports car enthusiastically, it's because I don't really feel like bombing through a city crowded with pedestrians and other cars...

Then why do you need a car that can not be legally driven the way it was designed to be driven? Don't you think that is wasteful? Overkill?

You say you enjoy driving it normally, but then why not buy a car without all the sports car compromises?

And my last comment is absolutely the point of the issue.

So why drive a minivan unless you had to? Because I sure as hell can't see why people would want to.

Many people simply don't enjoy the act of driving any car. Or at least, don't gain so much pleasure from the act that they are willing to trade the positive aspects of a large, comfortable, utility oriented car for the positive aspects of a small, performance oriented car.

Say you get 1000 fun pts from a sports car. Some people get only 10 pts from a sports car. Driving dynamics are inconsequential for these people. For their money, they would rather get 1000 useful pts from their minivan or SUV. The opportunity cost of the 10 fun pts doesn't matter to them. It's that simple.


A Murano isn't necessarily excessive though, and it certainly has qualities above and beyond the average minivan. The 350Z engine is one such quality, the looks are another.

I've not stopped justifying my comments with logic, and indeed the only proper comments stronger than repeatedly saying "a Jetta would do for most situations" are the ones you blew out of proportion...

Or they were overstated to begin with.

"A Jetta would do for most situations"

What if people would like to be prepared for "the vast majority of situations"? And the total cost (taking into account the fun they WON'T have driving a sporty car) of this was, in their minds, minimal?


It didn't take much reading between the lines to work out I was referring to minivans and the like rather than something with a few more inches legroom and a slightly bigger boot...

My reading between the lines is exactly what you were just complaining about.

So you need to either express your points more precisely or quit your complaining when people draw conclusions you don't happen to like.


But how often do they? Really? That's the point I'm making. I still maintain: Most people could probably get by pretty well with less. I'm not saying they have to, I'm not saying that I'll point a gun towards the next Renault Espace I see driving down the road with one person out of seven seats, I'm saying that if people used a bit of common sense, many would realise that something like a minivan is essentially just a waste of metal, fuel and space.

To you, they are a waste. But as I've already pointed out, many people don't feel that way.

Maybe you should realize and accept that not everyone has the same priorities in a car that you do.

And when you say "common sense", it sounds suspiciously like "my priorities".

And yes, before you go off and complain about my "overblowing" your comments, I am aware that you aren't running around menacing soccer moms with a 9 mill.

You disagree with their choices, saying they don't make sense. I am defending their choices, saying FOR THEM, it does make sense. There's nothing more to it than that.

Not really. Like I said, multifaceted vs. non-multifaceted. I can drive as slowly as I like but if the roof is down then the journey will still be fun. Even to the point where I get a buzz just knowing what I'm driving.

Sports cars can be enjoyed near their limits, but they can also be enjoyed nowhere near their limits. A minivan can carry lots of people, but when it's empty it's just carrying it's own ass about. It's like being a builder and wearing your toolbelt away from work too. It's great when you need your hammer to hand, but when you're sitting on the bog or trying to get cosy with the 'Missus it becomes a literal and metaphorical pain in the ass.

Your Miata has a friction circle. The car's raison d'etre is accessing the outer limits of that circle easily, in an entertaining manner.

If you don't do that, then you are not using the car for it's primary purpose. You may be enjoying other aspects of the car, but not the main one. Much like an empty minivan.

If you just want to cruise around, any number of limp boulevard cruisers will do.

Your toolbelt analogy is interesting (and indeed your best argument so far), but flawed. Most minivans these days drive like cars. And like I mentioned earlier, driving dynamics is of no consequence to their owners.

So while you paint the minivan out to be a pain the arse, the day to day practical considerations of owning and driving one is not any different than any passenger car.

At least, not where I live.


Congratulations on again taking my comment completely literally, rather than understanding it as a vehicle to carry my point...

Congratulations on failing to differentiate between understanding a point and agreeing with a point.

And well done for buying into your own red herring argument. The issue has always been around potential vs. actual use. How you choose to enjoy anything is a subjective issue I'm not interested in debating. But I guess you love making sure everyone knows what an enlightened connoisseur of fine motoring you must be.


Very clever. But also fallacious, as your "penis extention" jab is quite close to the bone (pun intended). Though it's not the reason I bought one (honest), a large part of owning a sports car is the appeal of the way it makes you feel, and if that's to make up for a lack in other personal areas then it's still fulfilling it's purpose.

A large part of even wanting a sports car is also caring how it makes you feel. Once again --not everyone gets a thrill out of driving like you (and I for that matter) do.

An MPV has one, at most two purposes. To carry people, and stuff. When it is doing those things it is literally no better than the aforementioned toolbelt, that loses it's worth the second it isn't being used to complete a job.

I've addressed this above.


I've already explained why you're wide of the mark in interpreting my comments, but if you must know, the scorn, mockery and criticism are the most entertaining way for me to get my point across.

I find it tends to work better than being deeply offended on others' behalf, or interpreting every word someone types literally.

Don't give yourself to much credit either, champ; I don't know you well enough to get upset over anything you write.

Like I said earlier, this is an intellectual pursuit for me. You can call it arrogance if you want to, but all I want is to convince you that your POV is wrong based on your own unwritten rules. I have a great appreciation for intellectual consistency.

If you really meant this whole thing in a semi-serious tongue in cheek sort of way, then why all the clicks of the REPLY button? When I started to seriously probe for serious answers many posts ago, why not a: "eh, I'm just playin' brah"?

Hell, all I wanted originally was confirmation that a Jetta was a "family car" in Europe. This whole business with the minivans was something you brought up.


And making or breaking friendships is the least of my worries, thanks. However much M-Spec and I disagree, our discussions have always been in hushed voices as it were, and I expect they'll continue to do so.

They have been as far as I recall. But this recent attitude of yours really doesn't add anything useful to the discussion.

What attitude, you might ask?

It's of little consequence to me if I'm rocking the boat occasionally and people are getting their poor little toes wet.

That one.

This need you have to belittle speaks more about yourself than it does about others.

So why don't you just check the ego at the door, and this topic can be much more pleasant to read? If you don't feel like being nice, at least be useful.


M
 
Yes, that was silly of me. I thought you might say what you mean, and mean what you say. I also thought I could have an interesting debate without having to step through a bunch of smarmy remarks, revisionist backpedaling and self-conscious posturing. Looks like I gave you too much credit. Won't happen again, though.

When you continually become more and more obtuse with your metaphors, then I'll become more obtuse with my retorts.

As for backpedaling, I've done nothing of the sort. I've maintained the same point all along, and any difference you see in my responses from my original post are simply down to clarification, given that the original post was an exaggeration of my actual feelings on the matter.

Do you own a screwdriver? Or a torch?

Are you using them right now? Probably not.

But tools have value even when they're not being used --they're convenient to have when you DO need them. An empty minivan, like a screwdriver, a toilet, a spare tire, an insurance policy, a 'friend with benefits' or nuclear weapons, is STILL performing it's function: to be available when the need arises.

But they are still, largely, useless when not being used for purpose. Not decorative, not interesting in conversation, just, essentially, tools.

I'm fine with a car being a tool (on a practical level, as I suspect most of us here view cars as far more than just a tool and therefore they become emotional objects), but to bring the Jetta into it again, it depends how much of a tool you need.

To give it another analogy, why have a whole Black & Decker workbench when just a screwdriver would do?

Then why do you need a car that can not be legally driven the way it was designed to be driven? Don't you think that is wasteful? Overkill?

You say you enjoy driving it normally, but then why not buy a car without all the sports car compromises?

Sound. Feel through the controls. Visual appeal. Smell. All things that a sports car can provide without ever approaching the limits of it's abilities, or indeed the limits of the driver's abilities.

Many people simply don't enjoy the act of driving any car. Or at least, don't gain so much pleasure from the act that they are willing to trade the positive aspects of a large, comfortable, utility oriented car for the positive aspects of a small, performance oriented car.

Say you get 1000 fun pts from a sports car. Some people get only 10 pts from a sports car. Driving dynamics are inconsequential for these people. For their money, they would rather get 1000 useful pts from their minivan or SUV. The opportunity cost of the 10 fun pts doesn't matter to them. It's that simple.

You'll note I've not said anything about forcing drivers into cars they don't want. Again, my point was that the Jetta would do for most situations. Not all, not every, most.

What if people would like to be prepared for "the vast majority of situations"? And the total cost (taking into account the fun they WON'T have driving a sporty car) of this was, in their minds, minimal?

The use of the word "sporty" was your concoction. I mentioned nothing of the sort, and apart from replying to your comments about my own car, I've been talking about, basically, sedans vs. minivans the whole time.

And on this note, I still think you're overstating the number of situations in which a minivan is the be-all and end-all of transportation.

So you need to either express your points more precisely or quit your complaining when people draw conclusions you don't happen to like.

When, exactly, did I complain?

Maybe you should realize and accept that not everyone has the same priorities in a car that you do.

Well jeez, I wish I knew before that people had different opinions on stuff, it would have saved me a hell of a lot of typing...

And when you say "common sense", it sounds suspiciously like "my priorities".

Interpret that as you will. But I can think of several cars I'd like to own that would disagree with my theory - a Murano being one of them - but that doesn't mean my comments don't make sense. As for making sense, see below:

You disagree with their choices, saying they don't make sense. I am defending their choices, saying FOR THEM, it does make sense. There's nothing more to it than that.

I agree. But "making sense" is all based on interpretation. Perhaps many people interpret their needs as being greater than they actually are?... Or perhaps, "making sense" to me is about being able to accomplish 95% of family business without spending extra on something that will only be of use for a small proportion of the time?

Your Miata has a friction circle. The car's raison d'etre is accessing the outer limits of that circle easily, in an entertaining manner.

If you don't do that, then you are not using the car for it's primary purpose. You may be enjoying other aspects of the car, but not the main one. Much like an empty minivan.

If you just want to cruise around, any number of limp boulevard cruisers will do.

Already covered above.

Your toolbelt analogy is interesting (and indeed your best argument so far), but flawed. Most minivans these days drive like cars. And like I mentioned earlier, driving dynamics is of no consequence to their owners.

So while you paint the minivan out to be a pain the arse, the day to day practical considerations of owning and driving one is not any different than any passenger car.

At least, not where I live.

Dynamics aren't my main arguement though. I'm sure there are any number of minivans that drive quite nicely - that doesn't mean that they're necessarily being used to their potential.

As I mentioned several posts ago, my comments are based on my own observations. It is up to you that you trust my observations are correct for the country in which I live. I admit I was a little cheeky with some of your analogies but at the end of the day I'm prepared to trust that your observations and experiences are more on-par with the country in which you live. Perhaps everyone does have a car full of people on every journey, or cart around garden equipment with regularity.

But I'd be willing to bet that a great many people use their massive minivan to cart around their only child.

But I guess you love making sure everyone knows what an enlightened connoisseur of fine motoring you must be.

If you're looking for someone with an ego you've come to the wrong place. I can recommend far better people around this site than me at blowing their own trumpet.

A large part of even wanting a sports car is also caring how it makes you feel. Once again --not everyone gets a thrill out of driving like you (and I for that matter) do.

I understand this, and indeed I don't think I've called this point into question?...

Don't give yourself to much credit either, champ; I don't know you well enough to get upset over anything you write.

Like I said earlier, this is an intellectual pursuit for me. You can call it arrogance if you want to, but all I want is to convince you that your POV is wrong based on your own unwritten rules. I have a great appreciation for intellectual consistency.

As far as I'm aware my responses have been consistant, on any level. Indeed, for Cody they've apparently been too consistant as I appear to have gone over the same point several times.

If you really meant this whole thing in a semi-serious tongue in cheek sort of way, then why all the clicks of the REPLY button? When I started to seriously probe for serious answers many posts ago, why not a: "eh, I'm just playin' brah"?

Partly, because I enjoy the debate (believe it or not). And partly, as I was providing serious answers, to the best of my ability. I'm aware it's difficult to convey emotion over the internet but I'd expect most people have got a pretty good handle on how I respond in debates around here, and I didn't expect that you'd find me so hard to read.

Yes, I've been sarcastic etc etc, but as I mentioned above, I respond on the same level as the material I'm being given.

Hell, all I wanted originally was confirmation that a Jetta was a "family car" in Europe. This whole business with the minivans was something you brought up.

Yes, I did. The dead donkey has been well and truly dropped. I used it to illustrate a point that the Jetta would be a perfectly good family car, everything exploded.

They have been as far as I recall. But this recent attitude of yours really doesn't add anything useful to the discussion.

What attitude, you might ask?

That one.

This need you have to belittle speaks more about yourself than it does about others.

So why don't you just check the ego at the door, and this topic can be much more pleasant to read? If you don't feel like being nice, at least be useful.

Like I said, if you're looking for ego you're talking to the wrong bloke. I talk on the same level I'm being spoken to.

Given that normal debate on GTP is usually a fairly one-sided affair (witness things like the "Do you believe in God" threads and the like) I'd expect that at least a few more people would be kicking around to tell me I'm talking rubbish if I actually was, but I can only presume that our arguements are pegged at a level (either that, or people are too apathetic about it) as there aren't great gatherings of people ganging up on either of us to tell us we're wrong.

The arguement would in fact be much more pleasant if you weren't equally convinced that you were on an intellectual high horse as I am that what I'm saying is logically sound.

Now I don't know about you, but I'm rather losing the will to continue with this discussion, given that it's not only veering off-topic but also that we've both explained our points clearly enough and now we're both picking holes in each others' posting style. I enjoy writing about cars, but talking about people starts to be a bit of a drag after a while.
 
To give it another analogy, why have a whole Black & Decker workbench when just a screwdriver would do?
Because when you start poking that wet drywall with your handy dandy screwdriver you suddenly realize - oh! - you should have gotten a workbench and, hell, a sliding compound miter saw while you're at it unless you want to poke a bunch of holes in your 48 inch wide, 5/8 inch thick sheets and snap them off like a perforated pizza box.

Also, you're going to need more than a Jetta to get all those tools home.
 
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So why drive a minivan unless you had to? Because I sure as hell can't see why people would want to.

I think many of your minivan arguments could be applied to the Camry, which is America's #1 selling car. The only difference is the Camry has less interior space. Which one would you prefer parents to buy?
 
To give it another analogy, why have a whole Black & Decker workbench when just a screwdriver would do?

Not sure that's the best example. A workmate folds away and gets forgotten about. A Vauxhall Zafira is in your life FOREVER.


I think many of your minivan arguments could be applied to the Camry, which is America's #1 selling car. The only difference is the Camry has less interior space. Which one would you prefer parents to buy?

...you guys know that there are other cars on sale, right?
 
Not sure that's the best example. A workmate folds away and gets forgotten about. A Vauxhall Zafira is in your life FOREVER.




...you guys know that there are other cars on sale, right?

Yes, the Accord, Corolla, and Civic, in that order
 
There's also a lot of Americans that buy Toyota Corollas, Honda Civics, and Nissan Sentras which are similar in interior and exterior size (and yes, dynamics) to a large extent. In fact, most of these specimens have been manufactured in the land of Old Glory for the past 10-15 years. Being that I see many families that actually drive these cars, with child car seats, toys littered about them, and sporting bumper stickers proclaiming how great they are at school, it may come as a surprise that many American families actually choose them for daily transportation.

But most commonly, there's the one-large(r) vehicle and one average-to-small(er) car scenario with many of the average nuclear families in the residential neighborhoods I visit, not to mention towards those I assist with in their car service needs. People will offer their unvarnished opinion, especially when asked how much they (dis-)like it. Yeah, a wealthier class is going to have larger vehicles, and a lot of people won't drive anything but an American-nameplate car (never mind most of them are made in Canada and Mexico), which are mostly less lithe in design and give a larger appearance, lest anyone think you're from Wussitania.
 
Wow... on the 2011 Jetta... Ok, I'll cut to the chase. It looks likes a Golf and A4 had sex together and neither wants to remember or admit it. Its a ugly car to me. 15k... hmmm... the current Focus/New Focus/Mazda 3 start there in the United States of America... I don't know how well it will sell. Especially if they bring the Polo over. :) -- Randy
 
This Makes Up For Some of it, Volkswagen: The 2012 VW GLI


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You know the drill with Volkswagen as of late. Make it bigger, make it cheaper, we'll sell eleventy-billion of them. In the end, they've tossed the baby out with the bathwater. The 2011 Jetta is no longer the car it should be, and it appears as though the 2012 Passat is heading in the same direction. The only "real" Volkswagen left is the Golf, and even then, it's not the same.

Enter the 2012 Jetta GLI. Take the 200 BHP 2.0T from the GTI, with the same six-speed manual or DSG gearbox, and you've got the basis of what makes this a bit more than a regular Jetta. Un-Americanify the car by adding the multilink rear suspension and soft-touch interior from the European Jetta, and things get a little better. Then they tell us the base price is less than $24,000.


Oh hey, someone at Volkswagen is still trying to make a decent car. Thanks guy!
 
I think it'll take a fair amount to convince me that this is a good car after the disaster that the regular Jetta is. I'd definitely pay the extra $1000 for the GTI over this thing. Although I guess that does show just how much money they're saving with the MKVI Jetta platform.

Is this built in Germany like the GTI next to the Euro Jettas?
 
This Makes Up For Some of it, Volkswagen: The 2012 VW GLI

Damn you all. We'll not get anything that interesting with our Jetta, even though I'm certain there'd be a market for it. The Jetta is just about the only small sedan (and it's not even that small any more) that could potentially sell in decent numbers in the UK, if the Bora was anything to go by. The old turbocharged, V5 and V6 Boras are quite sought-after now. Good performance and looks for not a lot of money.

Also, a Fender speaker system? Epic.
 
I'll have to see it for myself to comment. I really don't like anything about the new Jetta, and my VW loving-and-owning uncle loathes it. Hopefully the GLI will be what a fitting successor to the MK V Jetta should have been, but... well, I'll have to see it for myself.
 
On the GLI:
I thought it was a fitting successor in the model line, but it certainly is not on the same level of brilliance as it's predecessor. The compromises in the interior department are still noticeable, but it is generally a nicer place to be than the "regular" Jetta. The new Fender audio system is speaker-blasting awesomeness, and I would say that it is generally on par or better than the Bose and Harman Kardon in a lot of higher-class automobiles. Volkswagen and Fender have spent a lot of time and money specifically designing their systems for the specific vehicles, and tuning the systems for a more "youthful" audience. If I were buying a Volkswagen, I'd probably be checking that option box.


On the Jetta and Passat:
Admittedly, both are steps backwards from the MKV and the B7, but they aren't nearly as bad as the press (both online and in print) have trumped them up to be. The downgrade in materials is immediately noticeable, especially in the Passat, but there are worse examples in the mid size segment these days. However, the cars are still laid out in a very attractive manner, the seats are still some of the best in the segment, and I would expect the typical German-style levels of solidity that come with owning most Volkswagen products. The fact that a base-line Passat is going to be around $20K is surprising, and it looks like you're going to get a fair bit of content at that lower price.

I think my biggest critique of the NMS Passat is the fact they no longer offer the 2.0T as an option on any of the trim levels. Simply put, the 2.5L I5 is just not my cup of tea. If they offered the 2.0T with a stick, somewhere around $25K, with the Fender audio system, I'd be all over it.
 
Don't know about your guys, but the GLI looks pretty decent to me.

Nice sound system, with good looking alloys and sober interior. Pretty nice for a daily commuter, seriously considering buying it ( if this GLI model comes around my country ).
 
I think my biggest critique of the NMS Passat is the fact they no longer offer the 2.0T as an option on any of the trim levels. Simply put, the 2.5L I5 is just not my cup of tea. If they offered the 2.0T with a stick, somewhere around $25K, with the Fender audio system, I'd be all over it.

I haven't been able to figure this one out either. I'm sure they would get quite a few people interested if they offered the 2.0T in addition to the 2.5 and 3.6, due to the improved economy, better power and that awesome power curve. Make it a $2-3k option with the DSG box and you'd be back almost to where the B6 Passat left off.
 
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