2011 Rule Changes

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

We'll see. Does the wing "deactivate" after the pass is made?

 

[niky]

Under braking.

As we saw from last year, KERS alone didn't give enough of a boost for passes in some instances (but again, this was in races with fueling pit-stops... the current no-fuel rule helps make overtaking easier). Smart use of KERS+Wing+fuel management strategies should allow for easier overtaking.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Smart use of KERS+Wing+fuel management strategies should allow for easier overtaking.

I think that's the intention. For everything FOTA seem to have gotten right this year, the fact still remains that cars struggle to overtake when they're within a second of each other. The idea behind all of this is to give drivers a better shot at it.

 

[niky]

Like I said... remove the rear wings altogether... let the FSM sort them out...

I'll wait until next season to comment on the changes. Let's just hope we don't get NASCAR... but then, that's not such a bad thing...

 

[Ardius]

I think that's the intention. For everything FOTA seem to have gotten right this year, the fact still remains that cars struggle to overtake when they're within a second of each other. The idea behind all of this is to give drivers a better shot at it.

Except that it ignores the actual problem - its not about keeping close and overtaking on straights, the problem is the cars can't follow each other very well through corners. They can't use the rear wing stalling/adjustment in the middle of a corner and KERS is best used on straights.

They still won't have fixed what is wrong and potentially made the racing even more artificial. I'm not entirely convinced by these rule changes really.

 

[VRracingfan]

This new adjustable rear wings idea is awful. The excitement in overtaking is the build up and the moment when the driver might not pull it off. This wing is a terrible short term solution to a long term problem.
Next year was going to be exciting but FOTA feel as if they have to fix something that isn't broken. Have unlimited Kers over a race so you can save it up just like the guy infront or behind, sort of like turbos, I think?

 

[DK]

It's believed that turbos will be a part of the FIA's engine regulations for 2013 onwards.

Says it all really.

They still won't have fixed what is wrong and potentially made the racing even more artificial. I'm not entirely convinced by these rule changes really.

FIFA would get on great with the FIA in that case, seeing as both are unwilling to change useless rules or introduce more ones.

 

[Ardius]

FIFA would get on great with the FIA in that case, seeing as both are unwilling to change useless rules or introduce more ones.

They are FOTA suggestions.

Please, FIA are way, way ahead of FIFA. The comparison is laughable.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Says it all really.

Don't go expecting phenomenal beasts for engines, though. The expected regulations are 1.5 litre turbocharged powerplants. They'll pretty much be producing the same power as the current generation of engine.

 

[Seismica]

If the drivers can only use the active rear wing a limited number of times throughout the race, maybe 3 or 4, it could be good.

If it's always available when coming up behind another driver, we will see lots of overtaking. But that is like introducing rubberbanding into Formula One. The car behind will have an unfair speed advantage. Not good.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

If it's always available when coming up behind another driver, we will see lots of overtaking.

No we won't. It's only expected to offer 15km/h at the maximum, and that certainly doesn't guarantee an overtake. If I'm doing 300km/h and you're doing 300km/h and I use my rear wing when I'm exactly one second behind you so that I'm doing 315km/h, how long do you think I would need to catch you up? I'm willing to bet that Fuji and Abu Dhabi are the only circuits with a straight long enough.

 

[niky]

Don't go expecting phenomenal beasts for engines, though. The expected regulations are 1.5 litre turbocharged powerplants. They'll pretty much be producing the same power as the current generation of engine.

Still... 1.5? Turbo? No air restrictors please, and I'll be happy.

With a no-refueling race, you could basically dump the air restrictors, limit the tank size to an arbitrary amount, and watch as people run a million different fuel trims at the same time, with hilarious results and lots of overtaking.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

If I'm doing 300km/h and you're doing 300km/h and I use my rear wing when I'm exactly one second behind you so that I'm doing 315km/h, how long do you think I would need to catch you up? I'm willing to bet that Fuji and Abu Dhabi are the only circuits with a straight long enough.

It will be a bit over 2 seconds to pass accounting for the short bit of time to reach 315.

 

[Alex.]

GP2 cars get F1 tyres next year. How long until they notice the GP2's are getting mighty close? Even then they'll probably slow them down rather than speed F1 up.

 

[Small_Fryz]

It will be a bit over 2 seconds to pass accounting for the short bit of time to reach 315.

I see no difference between that and slip streaming, only the wing change will make slip streaming far far quicker and more effective. I think the problem could be having the extra rpm and gearing to allow the higher speed.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Well with slipstreaming when you get out of the tow, the drag hits you right back.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

It will be a bit over 2 seconds to pass accounting for the short bit of time to reach 315.

Uh-huh. And what about KERS? What if the defending driver deploys for a full six seconds? You're also forgetting that the defending driver gets to use his rear wing as soon as the attacking driver is past.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

Uh-huh. And what about KERS? What if the defending driver deploys for a full six seconds?

What if the offending driver deploys also?

You're also forgetting that the defending driver gets to use his rear wing as soon as the attacking driver is past.

But the other driver gets it until he brakes right?

 

[prisonermonkeys]

What if the offending driver deploys also?

It doesn't guarnatee an overtake. A bit of defensive driving, and it's all for nothing.

But the other driver gets it until he brakes right?

Both do.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

It doesn't guarantee an overtake. A bit of defensive driving, and it's all for nothing.


Both do.

Defensive driving can only go so far especially with the one move rule. The defending driver will have to watch his tail, since closing speed with the wing and KERS will be pretty big. It's kind of like Alonso with his tires in Valencia. He could defend all he wanted, but Kobayashi was going to get through.


But one driver has the "wing advantage" from earlier on. So if two drivers,A and, with about the same performance are close together. A is following so he gets the wing advantage and then uses KERS to pass. B can only defend with KERS. I doubt getting the wing after the pass will make much of a difference, since driver A is already is using it. So next lap or straight around B is in the same situation as A.

I predict that there will be situations like this next year along with the possibility of extra accidents.

 

[Tired Tyres]

This KERS and moveable rear wing idea from the FIA is utterly stupid in my view. The problem is aero preventing cars getting close enough to each other for passing to be made possible.

The solution is to get rid of diffusers completely, use flat plane single element wings, remove all other aero devices that crop up on the bodywork and stop building tracks designed specifically not to allow overtaking.

This will slow the cars down as well and require lower formula categories to be slowed down accordingly so that F1 remains the fastest.

 

[niky]

If you want cars running closer to each other... then you only allow rear diffusers and disallow rear wings entirely.

I'd love to see that... if aero-grip goes down, racing becomes much more exciting (again, I cite SuperBike and MotoGP). Recover the losses through mechanical grip...

A lot of drivers and even ex-drivers are now speaking up against the adjustable rear wings. A lot of them feel it's not safe. David Coulthard says that closing speeds between different cars should be kept to around 8 km/h.

 

[Ardius]

This KERS and moveable rear wing idea from the FIA is utterly stupid in my view.

Its not an FIA idea, its a FOTA idea.

As for the worry about the overtaking just being "he's pressed the button so he's going to overtake no matter what" - I was at the FOTA fans forum yesterday and Martin Whitmarsh was quite clear in saying that overtaking isn't the real crux of F1 - its the build up to the overtake. Jock Clear also put it that he would rather see a race with two drivers going at each and never overtaking than hundreds of overtakes per race because its easier.

So I don't think we need to worry too much about this as it appears the teams think the same way as us.

If you want cars running closer to each other... then you only allow rear diffusers and disallow rear wings entirely.

I'd love to see that... if aero-grip goes down, racing becomes much more exciting (again, I cite SuperBike and MotoGP). Recover the losses through mechanical grip...

Interestingly, they had Frank Dernie at the fans forum and he talked about the problem of overtaking and mused that he has never seen any data suggest more mechanical grip = more overtaking. Take what you will from that.

 

[niky]

Interestingly, they had Frank Dernie at the fans forum and he talked about the problem of overtaking and mused that he has never seen any data suggest more mechanical grip = more overtaking. Take what you will from that.

Does he mean more grip overall, or in exchange for aero grip? As I only recommend it as a replacement for aerogrip, which we're going to take away tons of by removing those gigantic billboards on the back of the car.

 

[prisonermonkeys]

Its not an FIA idea, its a FOTA idea.

I love it how people automatically assume that bad ideas were generated by the FIA.

 

[Seismica]

Does he mean more grip overall, or in exchange for aero grip? As I only recommend it as a replacement for aerogrip, which we're going to take away tons of by removing those gigantic billboards on the back of the car.

The diffusers create way more downforce than the rear wings. Or at least, in relation to drag they do.

No we won't. It's only expected to offer 15km/h at the maximum, and that certainly doesn't guarantee an overtake. If I'm doing 300km/h and you're doing 300km/h and I use my rear wing when I'm exactly one second behind you so that I'm doing 315km/h, how long do you think I would need to catch you up? I'm willing to bet that Fuji and Abu Dhabi are the only circuits with a straight long enough.

The extra speed is enough to gain a couple of tenths which means they will get close enough to pass them in the braking zone. The exit doesn't matter, so they can simply brake, land their car onto the apex, forcing the other car wide. The exit of the corner doesn't matter for the overtaking guy, as long as he gets the inside line.

I'm sure you understand all of this.

I think they should just allow adjustable rear wings for all of the cars, all of the time. Or just not allow it in the first place. Any compromises like this are more complex than they need to be. A 'push to pass' button would be better off as KERS, an Engine RPM increase or an extra Turbo boost, if they re-introduce turbos in 2012/2013. Messing with the rear wings and the downforce levels like this is complicated and could cause problems if it gets stuck (Which some drivers have voiced concerns about), or may cause instability in the braking zones if there is a delay on the wing changing back to the regular angle. A power boost of some sort would be the best solution.

 

[ROAD_DOGG33J]

I'd love to see that... if aero-grip goes down, racing becomes much more exciting (again, I cite SuperBike and MotoGP). Recover the losses through mechanical grip...

I don't find the racing in MotoGP much more exciting if any.

 

[Ardius]

Does he mean more grip overall, or in exchange for aero grip? As I only recommend it as a replacement for aerogrip, which we're going to take away tons of by removing those gigantic billboards on the back of the car.

He meant as a replacement, the point is replacing the reliance on aerodynamics with reliance on mechanical is it not? Frank was saying he finds it funny because he never saw a test simulation that suggested that to be the case (and therefore doesn't see where the suggestion comes from).

Taking away the aero also reduces the ability of the cars to go around the corners so fast, I'm not sure its entirely a great idea to completely ditch the aero but they certainly need to look at altering the aero to help cars follow through a corner - something that isn't a problem of the aerodynamics, but is a problem of a specific aerodynamic effect, which is the wake. You can have aerodynamics which allow fast racing and following through corners, we don't need to ditch aero to solve this problem.

 

[niky]

Which is why I'm suggesting a rear wing delete. Diffusers cause less turbulence to the following car, which allows for closer following through corners. I seem to recall some suggestions of split wings for the same effect... I suppose no wings would be even better. Don't know if teams can get around this by designing diffusers to kick up a storm behind the car, though. You'll have cars faster on the straights... a smidge slower in the corners... but able to follow each other closer through it, opening up avenues of overtaking on the corner exit... which is difficult (if not impossible) with current F1 cars (unless your speed differential is huge).

Moveable wings are just a bad idea. The F-duct works because the activation mode is a simple physical thing, and you have to activate it to lose downforce. A moveable rear wing requires hydraulics... which can fail... and if you have a brain fart, having the wing in overtake mode midcorner means a nasty spin. (If you mess up with the moveable front wing now... you just get understeer... which is safer... especially since the cars have much more front-end grip right now than rear end grip).

I don't find the racing in MotoGP much more exciting if any.

In MotoGP, the lack of aero-grip and the tiny contact patches (as well as the insane fear of death) mean that drivers can take literally dozens of lines through the same corner. In some races, position changes and lead changes can sometimes occur at every other corner in the later stages of a race.

Granted... I'm not watching it now... but that's only because Rossi's out for the season.

 

[Ardius]

The split wing concept was an epic failure by the way by one Nick Wirth.

Now we have double diffusers banned, single diffusers produce less wake so therefore the problem should be solved next year anyway. The aerodynamics for 2011 are how they should have been for 2009.
Surely the best way of achieving downforce without wake is ground effects and venturi tunnels?

Ditching the rear wing entirely seems a bit drastic, surely they would have ditch a lot of the front wing too? You effectively take off huge amounts of downforce doing that and I'm not sure diffusers work so well without the rear wing. Certainly rear wing failures are always dramatic.

I'm not going to defend the idea of moveable rear wings and the regulations around them, but I will say that FOTA are not idiots. It came across very well in the fan forum that they realise the implications of the rule changes they suggest. I certainly feel I can trust them when they say it will work and they acknowledged the worries that we could just get lots of overtakes but no excitment. I'm not sure these rules are the right way to go but I'm willing to see how it pans out, as Whitmarsh has said "if we got it wrong, we got it wrong, the sport has done so much changing in the past without ever admitting it has made a mistake and doubled back. If the rules we bring across are a mistake, we need to double back and accept we got it wrong".
The teams have all the data and simulations to come up with these rules after all, so if anyone should know what would be best, its them.