2015 Chevrolet COPO Camaro Debuts At SEMA

[CAMAROBOY69]

http://www.motorauthority.com/news/1025599_2015-chevrolet-copo-camaro-debuts-at-sema

 

[Badasp5.0]

Please tell me it still have a Ford 9 inch rear end like the previous COPO.

 

[Slash]

It said it still has a solid axle so it probably still has the Ford axle.

 

[AnthonyD1993]

The COPO and Cobra Jet both Strange 9 inch axles. At this level, its all aftermarket and nothing truly Ford but the name. Hence this quote on one of BoostedGT's Facebook photos that one of his fans wrote- "At our stage of racing none of this 🤬 has anything to do with a manufacture. It's all aftermarket that's just based on the bolt patterns of the car it fits in." Ironically enough, BoostedGT himself liked that comment (probably due to agreeing with it), and as everyone knows, he is one of the most hardcore Ford guys out there. As for what started that whole comment chain- it was about the 9 inch axle.

Anyway, GM has a ton of info on the 2015 COPO. That info can be found here. While a factory Turbo 400 case could potentially survive at this level depending on condition, it's a smart move to go full aftermarket and go with an SFI certified case to make it easier to get them on the track. And it's a hell of a lot safer too.

 

[Badasp5.0]

The COPO and Cobra Jet both Strange 9 inch axles. At this level, its all aftermarket and nothing truly Ford but the name. Hence this quote on one of BoostedGT's Facebook photos that one of his fans wrote- "At our stage of racing none of this 🤬 has anything to do with a manufacture. It's all aftermarket that's just based on the bolt patterns of the car it fits in." Ironically enough, BoostedGT himself liked that comment (probably due to agreeing with it), and as everyone knows, he is one of the most hardcore Ford guys out there. As for what started that whole comment chain- it was about the 9 inch axle.

Anyway, GM has a ton of info on the 2015 COPO. That info can be found here. While a factory Turbo 400 case could potentially survive at this level depending on condition, it's a smart move to go full aftermarket and go with an SFI certified case to make it easier to get them on the track. And it's a hell of a lot safer too.

I am quite aware of the aftermarket nature of the Strange units but its still fun to poke fun at the parts Ford roots. The GM website is very informative thanks for posting a link.

 

[Slash]

Aftermarket or not its still a Ford design.

 

[Zenith]

Aftermarket or not its still a Ford design.

Except it's got different axles made from different materials by different processes connected to a different differential with a ring gear once again made with different materials by different processes taking power from a pinion made by more different materials made by different processes with different bearings and seals all held together by bolts that different than Ford.

The only thing Ford left about the design is the diameter of the ring gear.

Where's that salt...?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Aftermarket or not its still a Ford design.

At some point I've got to ask, why. Until Ford starts paying you to go to bat...why do it?

 

[Slash]

Except it's got different axles made from different materials by different processes connected to a different differential with a ring gear once again made with different materials by different processes taking power from a pinion made by more different materials made by different processes with different bearings and seals all held together by bolts that different than Ford.

The only thing Ford left about the design is the diameter of the ring gear.

Where's that salt...?

And who made it in the first place?

Has it been upgraded? Absolutely. But it's still derived from Ford and still carries the Ford 9" nameplate.

 

[AnthonyD1993]

And who made it in the first place?

Has it been upgraded? Absolutely. But it's still derived from Ford and still carries the Ford 9" nameplate.

So under your own logic, the thousands of modified Mustangs that use aftermarket Powerglide and Turbo400 transmissions (including full aftermarket builds) are using GM transmissions?

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

So under your own logic, the thousands of modified Mustangs that use aftermarket Powerglide and Turbo400 transmissions (including full aftermarket builds) are using GM transmissions?

Well they have to be...right?!

 

[Slash]

So under your own logic, the thousands of modified Mustangs that use aftermarket Powerglide and Turbo400 transmissions (including full aftermarket builds) are using GM transmissions?

Technically speaking it was a GM design to begin with that was just improved on. So while being improved and bought aftermarket it's still technically GM in my eyes. A powerglide is a powerglide is a powerglide.

 

[Zenith]

@Slash I think you're misunderstanding where the engineering is.

Things like bolt patterns and ring gear diameters are almost trivial. They hardly contribute to the performance.

With things like rear axles the real engineering, what makes a design belong to Ford or Strange or GM, is the materials and the methods used to make the parts.

It's a Strange axle. None of the important work done to the axle that sits under this Camaro was done by Ford, it was done by Strange.

 

[AnthonyD1993]

@Slash I think you're misunderstanding where the engineering is.

Things like bolt patterns and ring gear diameters are almost trivial. They hardly contribute to the performance.

With things like rear axles the real engineering, what makes a design belong to Ford or Strange or GM, is the materials and the methods used to make the parts.

It's a Strange axle. None of the important work done to the axle that sits under this Camaro was done by Ford, it was done by Strange.

To be fair though, he at least was consistent with calling the Strange 9 inches Fords and the ATI Turbo400 was called GM. A good chunk of my friends who support the Blue oval would have called the Strange a Ford piece and then turned around and called the Turbo400 an aftermarket build that had nothing to do with GM.

 

[SlipZtrEm]

Except it's got different axles made from different materials by different processes connected to a different differential with a ring gear once again made with different materials by different processes taking power from a pinion made by more different materials made by different processes with different bearings and seals all held together by bolts that different than Ford.

The only thing Ford left about the design is the diameter of the ring gear.

Where's that salt...?

He might be on to something. From now on, I will refer to every single car on the road as a Benz.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I'm rather inclined to agree with Slash on this one. It's Ford's design of the 9" rear axle that has made it so popular, not the materials. From wiki:

One of the features which distinguishes this axle from other high-performance or heavy-duty solid axles is that unlike other axle designs, access to the differential gears is not through the rear center cover; rather, in the Ford 9 inch, the rear cover is welded to the axle housing, and access to internals is obtained by removing the center cover on the pinion (front) side of the axle through which the driveshaft yoke connects, with the differential assembly coming out of the axle as a unit attached to the cover.,,[1][2][3] Although this requires disconnecting the driveshaft to access the internal gearset, it offers the advantage of being able to disassemble and reassemble the differential gears and adjust clearances conveniently on the benchtop, rather than with the restricted access of working within the axle housing under the car.

Reading that, the strength/popularity of the axle are not in the materials, but rather the design itself, more specifically easier access and ability to tune the gearset out of the car, something undoubtedly very important to racers. That design was Ford, not Strange.

The engine in my car was designed and developed entirely by Mazda, but it still says NSU-Wankel on it. Not sure if this is a 1:1 analogue or not.

 

[Slash]

I'm rather inclined to agree with Slash on this one. It's Ford's design of the 9" rear axle that has made it so popular, not the materials. From wiki:



Reading that, the strength/popularity of the axle are not in the materials, but rather the design itself, more specifically easier access and ability to tune the gearset out of the car, something undoubtedly very important to racers. That design was Ford, not Strange.

This is pretty much what I was getting at.

 

[Zenith]

I'm rather inclined to agree with Slash on this one. It's Ford's design of the 9" rear axle that has made it so popular, not the materials. From wiki:

Reading that, the strength/popularity of the axle are not in the materials, but rather the design itself, more specifically easier access and ability to tune the gearset out of the car, something undoubtedly very important to racers. That design was Ford, not Strange.

The engine in my car was designed and developed entirely by Mazda, but it still says NSU-Wankel on it. Not sure if this is a 1:1 analogue or not.

I disagree, the ability to swap final drive gears has been a cherry on top for drag racers. They seem to like the 9" for it's strength above all else.

 

[Slash]

I'm not just talking about the internal parts but everything including the carrier/case. The entire thing was derived by Ford design, the aftermarket has just taken it and beefed up and already stout rear end and slapped their name on it. Just because an aftermarket part is worked over or even completely built by a company other than Ford, does not make it a design that is not Fords. There might not be a part on it stamped/casting/molded by Ford, but that doesn't mean it didn't come from Ford originally.

It's kind of like if I bought a badge for a car. The original OEM part was say, I dunno, GM for example. Say an aftermarket company repro of the same badge was made by LMC. Does that make the badge and LMC badge because it wasn't cast by GM, but with the same tooling? Now I get it's slightly different then the Strange axle because they improved on an already great design, but you see the point I'm getting at.

Or even better, what about an aftermarket engine block. Is a 302 not a 302 anymore because its made of aluminum with a Dart name stamped on it instead of a Blue oval?

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

I disagree, the ability to swap final drive gears has been a cherry on top for drag racers. They seem to like the 9" for it's strength above all else.

I think the welded rear diff cover helps significantly with that.

 

[Zenith]

I'm not just talking about the internal parts but everything including the carrier/case. The entire thing was derived by Ford design, the aftermarket has just taken it and beefed up and already stout rear end and slapped their name on it.

Here is where you are wrong.

I know you don't know much about materials science or metallurgy. Please don't spread the gospel of the Blue Oval on topics that you're not educated in.

I think the welded rear diff cover helps significantly with that.

I agree.

 

[Slash]

How exactly is that wrong considering that's exactly what 95% of the aftermarket does?

 

[Zenith]

How exactly is that wrong considering that's exactly what 95% of the aftermarket does?

That's not true and it certainly doesn't apply to the Strange axle that's underneath the Camaro that we're discussing. You said the axle under this car is Ford, that was a misleading statement.

 

[Slash]

It is because it came from a Ford design. Unless it was something completely custom by Strange it still is Ford.

 

[Zenith]

It is because it came from a Ford design. Unless it was something completely custom by Strange it still is Ford.

Once again, you don't know squat about the important engineering processes that make a good drag axle. You're not a material scientist nor are you knowledgable about the tech in drag racing. This is fine right up until you go waving the blue flag over some insignificant crap like the axle under a Camaro.

You also just contradicted the very argument you made earlier trying to prove that the aftermarket was just "slapping their name on" factory parts.

Aftermarket stuff is still Ford stuff because it's 90% Ford with a different name!

This stuff is still Ford stuff because even though 90% of it was designed by the aftermarket company, it's still Ford because there's still that 10%!

The credit for a design of a part should go to the people who designed the critical parameters, not the people who came up with the trivial stuff that the final product is loosely based on.

Your bias towards Ferd and complete unwillingness to acknowledge your own ignorance is laughable. I'm done. We need a dump truck to carry around this much salt. I think a Caterpillar truck would work but next you'll be telling me that the dump truck is really just a Ford design because it's a four wheeled factory produced vehicle and that it needs five wheels to be it's own design.

 

[Eunos_Cosmo]

The credit for a design of a part should go to the people who designed the critical parameters, not the people who came up with the trivial stuff that the final product is loosely based on.

Let's just list some designed advantages of the 9" rear end. Again, these are all things that are inherently imbedded in the actual architecture, or as you say, critical parameters, of the axle itself. They have absolutely nothing to do with material specificity or improvements made by strange or any of the other host of 9" reproductions. Keep in mind, this is from a GM-centric website.

While the 9-inch uses many similar pieces to the 12-bolt, it configures them in a somewhat more convenient and durable package. A 9-inch rearend features a stamped housing with nothing more than axletubes welded on each end. This type of rearend is easier to service because of its removable centersection that houses the gearset. This removable gear case houses a differential unit that the ring gear bolts onto. The 9-inch uses a bolt-on external pinion support that locates the large pinion bearing. But an added plus for the 9-inch is an internal rear-pinion support that also supports the gear end of the pinion to limit gear deflection under high torque loads.

Another advantage to the 9-inch is that the axles are easier to install and remove. Ford designed the factory 28- and 31-spline axles to be removable by yanking four bolts per axle flange, which allows the axle to slide out. The axles have pressed-on bearings and retainer plates that bolt to the housing flanges. There are no C-clips inside the rearend holding them in place like on a 12-bolt. The plus here for the 9-inch is that if you break an axle inside the housing, the axle retainer will keep the axle in place. On a 12-bolt, breaking an axle means it slides right out of the housing, causing massive sheetmetal damage along the way. You can convert a 12-bolt to the 9-inch style of axle retention, but it requires a C-clip eliminator kit and modifications to the housing.

Ultimately, the selection of 9-inch vs. 12-bolt comes down to personal preference. If you are building a cruiser and want to keep everything GM, the 12-bolt is more than capable of taking the abuse. On the other hand, if you plan to flog your Bow Tie machine with slicks and lots of torque, it's hard to beat the 9-inch's strength and ease of service. Both are great pieces, so we'll let you decide.

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/0304-9-inch-12-bolt-rearend-comparison/

Most telling, though, is Strange's own description of their 9" center section from their website.

The 9” Ford rear has been the preferred rear of choice in the drag racing industry for generations. That being said, not all 9” Ford cases and assemblies are created equal. Strange Engineering offers 5 different 9” case options, various pinion supports, gear sets and components to satisfy any application. And when the cases are mated with the highest quality components available, the strongest and most reliable assemblies on the market are created. Every Strange center section is meticulously assembled and scrutinized by our experienced set-up department. Complete center section assemblies are shipped in a protective transport case.

Put another way, who owns the intellectual property for the axle? Quite literally, who owns the patent for the 9 inch rear axle?

https://www.google.com/patents/US3270583?dq=inassignee:"Ford Motor Co" axle assembly&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GFZzVKGBNouuyATW04LABg&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAQ

Short of emailing strange, I couldn't determine if they produce the axles under license from Ford or not. My guess is that they do.

 

[Zenith]

Let's just list some designed advantages of the 9" rear end. Again, these are all things that are inherently imbedded in the actual architecture, or as you say, critical parameters, of the axle itself. They have absolutely nothing to do with material specificity or improvements made by strange or any of the other host of 9" reproductions. Keep in mind, this is from a GM-centric website.

Breaking it down to two features, we've got the stamped housing and the axle retention method.

From what I gathered on Strange's site, they use different welding methods and reinforcements to the housing than your standard Ford design. In addition, things like this built fo are also considered Ford 9" housings...

The axles and center section will bolt up with any standard Ford part and follow the same technical data packet, but there's no arguing that the housing is a Ford design. Not even the housing ends are the same. The only thing similar is the bolt pattern for the center section. When it comes to incremental upgrades, where do you draw the line?

The same goes for axles and center sections. Strange uses proprietary components for both that share almost nothing, probably not even spline count with a Ford. Will it fit in a 9"? Yeah. Is it a Ford part? I don't think so, Slash does, disagreement.

The axle retaining method is a bit more straightforward, that's Ford. I argue that the strength of the axles and center section is a far greater performance consideration than the lack of C-clips.

Most telling, though, is Strange's own description of their 9" center section from their website.

Put another way, who owns the intellectual property for the axle? Quite literally, who owns the patent for the 9 inch rear axle?

https://www.google.com/patents/US3270583?dq=inassignee:"Ford Motor Co" axle assembly&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GFZzVKGBNouuyATW04LABg&ved=0CCQQ6AEwAQ

Short of emailing strange, I couldn't determine if they produce the axles under license from Ford or not. My guess is that they do.

I'm not sure whether they produce under license either. If they did I wouldn't pronounce it to be a Ford part when I consider the design changes Strange touts.

Patents mean fairly little considering how broad they are. This would make all seat belts in cars Volvo seat belts.

Materials are part of the design, an absolutely critical one when it comes to drag racing drivetrain parts. I think they're important and numerous enough to pronounce the package a Strange axle despite sharing features with Ford's.

 

[AnthonyD1993]

Even Ford directly lists the 9 inch in the Cobra Jet (the 14 model) as a Strange 9 inch on their website. If you don't believe me, look here.

Anyway, back to the COPO-I wonder if the 15 COPO purchase lottery will result in any feel good stories like the first year of the [race only] COPO. One of the guys that bought one of the first fifth gen COPOs was a guy who was going to by a 69 COPO but couldn't because he got deployed to Vietnam. I also wonder if GM is going to send some of these cars to racers before they select the names of those that can buy it.