2015 Rolex Australian Grand Prix

Discussion in 'Motorsport' started by SVT Cobra GT, Mar 10, 2015.

  1. Pezzarinho17

    Pezzarinho17

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    From what I read on the ESPN report, there is some telemetry the FIA use to determine whether the wheel was fitted safely or not. Because this didn't suggest the wheel was loose, they can't apply a penalty. The wheel certainly wasn't attached enough to keep the car in the race though...

    Rear right.
     
  2. Spurgy 777

    Spurgy 777

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    The thing that sets Mercedes apart from the Vettel Red Bull and Schumacher Ferrari is the consistency of their dominance. Both the Red Bull and Ferrari (I think, my memory isn't so good with that one) had races where they weren't the fastest car and where other teams were stronger. So far the same can't be said for Mercedes as they've been pretty much the fastest team no matter what track they went to.

    Also I think you may have missed the original point I was making, and that is that with the Mercedes being so dominant, it gave Hamilton a relatively easy championship as he only had one driver who was able to beat him at every race.
     
  3. Soundtrack

    Soundtrack

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  4. Barra333

    Barra333 Premium

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    I can just see Ricciardo and Kvyat bashing on the steering wheel while **INSERT TOKEN TO CONTINUE** flashes in their face.
     
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  5. spacecowboy73

    spacecowboy73

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  6. SVT Cobra GT

    SVT Cobra GT

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    Vettel/Red Bull had the 2010 and 2012 seasons where they weren't the outright fastest packages. Both those seasons were incredibly wide open. 2012 had 7 different winners in the first seven races where even Williams won a race.

    Schumacher/Ferrari had a bit more dominance. 2001, 2002 and 2004 they wiped the floor with pretty much everyone. 2000 and 2003 were when McLaren and Williams respectively nearly took the title.

    2013 was the year Mercedes became competitive to win races and 2014 they wiped the floor with people. 2015 looks like it'll be the same but even more so with their reliability improving. For all we know 2016 could see Honda sort their engine out and take on Mercedes. Ferrari could take them on as they're much better than last year. Or it could be yet another year where Mercedes drive off into the sunset.
     
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  7. mustafur

    mustafur

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    Quote me on this at the end of the year, but if anyone is able to match or better Mercedes on pace this year ill eat my hat.
     
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  8. Barra333

    Barra333 Premium

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    Done. See below.
     
  9. Imari

    Imari

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    I didn't miss the original point, I happen to disagree with that as well.

    I don't think having only one competitor who pushes you until the final race to win the championship is easier than say, 2013 or 2011, where Vettel won the championship with three and four races remaining respectively. 2011 in particular was completely ridiculous. Vettel arguably had no potential competitors at all, Webber was nowhere near as close in driver skill to Vettel as Rosberg is to Hamilton. And while the gap to the other cars may or may not have been smaller than the current gap to the Mercedes, it was more than enough to guarantee wins unless something went wrong for Red Bull.

    I think you've forgotten just how dominant RB and Vettel were in 2011 and 2013. I don't remember the Schumacher years being much different, although it was a long time ago so I won't insist on it.

    I think you get the idea though. We've had four years of single manufacturer dominance in the last six. Which is obviously just random statistics and cherry picking, but even extended to 20 years there's a fair number of seasons that are just dominated by machinery. It's not the norm, but nor is it terribly rare. The chance is certainly above 10%.

    The fact is, it's not highly uncommon for a manufacturer to make a car that is just massively better than the competition. Pair that with a top tier driver, and you end up with one or two people dominating the standings. It's not terribly exciting, but it's kind of a part of what makes F1 what it is. If the technology and research didn't have the ability to have such a massive impact on the racing, the sport would be quite different.


    Hamilton may have had an easier time winning last year than say, Vettel in 2010 (the lucky sod), but it did go down to the wire. He had to drive his little British butt off in the second half of the season to consolidate that victory. While he did do a magnificent job, his championship was in danger all the way up to Brazil, where while Nico was still mathematically in the hunt it would have taken force majeure for him to win it.

    Hamilton is unquestionably the better driver, but I don't think he's better enough to say that it was easy for him. Luck is a part of motorsport, and while Hamilton was always going to win in a straight fight, it wouldn't have taken much for Rosberg to have really put him in a tough spot. Hamilton was never safe, and bar Abu Dhabi he always had to be going for that win to try and put some sort of gap between himself and Rosberg. The way the points system works didn't let him get a massive lead, even with his huge win streak.

    Consider how Hamilton won his first world championship, essentially by being a lucky mother:censored:. That could well have happened to Rosberg, and Hamilton would have been well aware of that. So no, I don't think it was an easy championship just because he only had one driver who was able to beat him. He had to fight for every inch. He was in the best car with a teammate that, while worse, could on any given day have pulled a win out of his backside and taken it from him.

    As much as I dislike the pompous git, he earned his championship by driving the nuts off that car.
     
    Last edited: Mar 16, 2015
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  10. GTPorsche

    GTPorsche

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  11. trustjab

    trustjab

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    So why reply? Everyone has an opinion. But winning a championship is never easy. Just because youre faster than your teammate more than not doesnt make it easy. A dominant car doesnt make it easy. Especially with the technical failures he had. The first race; -25 points. Canada; -25 points. They were races Rosberg won or top 3'd. Taking that into account he had to claw back deficits that took multiple wins to achieve. Not even Michael had two 4+ consecutive win streaks in the same season. Even in the might F2004. Thats why I say it wasn't 'easy'. Abu Dhabi wasnt a given for him either. Rosberg's failure only equaled their race dnf tally not their overall. Like you said, Ill believe what I want, you dont have to agree. :)
     
  12. mustafur

    mustafur

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    Fact is if the FIA doesn't start banning Engine components that are making Mercedes Dominant then it's nothing like Redbull's dominance, they had to do it whilst FIA was Banning every innovation they would introduce, and Blown diffusers were banned Mid season as well.

    Current Regulations allow engines to keep their advantage where as when it was about Aero we can name numerous innovations banned, in the last 5 years before the current Regulations.
    -Double Diffusers(Brawn)
    -Blown Diffusers(Redbull)
    -F-Duct(Mclaren)
    -Double DRS(Mercedes)
    -Shark fins(Redbull)

    The Blown diffusers where exceptionally big as by the time it got banned it was a crucial part of the cars ability to generate Downforce and some teams estimated that it was upwards of 2 seconds a lap.
     
    Last edited: Mar 17, 2015
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  13. spacecowboy73

    spacecowboy73

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    The FIA also changed the engine mapping rules which did not result in a huge change, but it was another attempt to reign Red Bull in.
     
  14. MatskiMonk

    MatskiMonk Premium

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    The way I see it, is that engine dominance is a bigger problem than aero dominance, it's harder for the other teams to catch-up mid season, especially given the engine development limitations. And it usually affects multiple teams since engine packages are shared, and aero packages are not. Nothing against Mercedes, they've obviously done a great job, but in my opinion it's to the detriment of the sport. I understand (and like) the technology race in F1, so banning things always bothered me, but to have that whilst development freezes are in place elsewhere is an utter joke.

    Personally I'd already pretty much lost interest in F1 over recent years, and I've got precisely zero interest in watching Hamilton and Rosberg fight it out on account of how immensely irritating I find Lewis. In my humble opinion you could put pretty much anyone in the grid in those Mercedes and they'd be in the top 2 and in contention for the title at the end of the year. I'm not so sure that would have been the case with previous winners, and to me, that does devalue the championship for the winning driver.
     
  15. Imari

    Imari

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    And these were all banned because while being technically legal at the time, they violated the spirit of the rules in a way that the FIA didn't like. There's lots of precedence for stuff like that happening, which is why the teams usually run new ideas past the FIA before they start using them. That the bannings happened to work to level the field was nice also, but the FIA doesn't ban stuff just because. There has to be at least a semblance of it being beyond the scope of what the rules were intended to permit.

    Having a good engine isn't beyond the scope of what the rules are intended to permit. Neither is having good aero. I'm yet to hear of any part of the Mercedes car that is considered legally questionable. If there are some, then the FIA should get in there and make the most of it to try and take away the advantage. If it's an entirely legal car, then the other teams need to get off their backsides and catch up.

    The fact that teams like Red Bull don't name any specific parts of the Mercedes that they think is unfair is telling. If they knew of one, they'd be kicking up a massive stink trying to push for a banning, just as other teams did with Red Bulls flexi-wings and weird engine maps. As well they should, the politics is part of the game.

    But I can't bring it on myself to actually support nerfing a team just because they're winning. That's not cool. By all means do the best to try and find some legitimate cause for reining them in, but you can't penalise people for doing their job well.

    Maybe this season is a loss in terms of drivers fighting for the world championship. So be it. Perhaps the FIA needs to start thinking now about what changes it would like to make next year to bring the field closer together.
     
  16. mustafur

    mustafur

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    The problem is like I said before, the rules don't allow you to catch up in a reasonable way, and are basically dictated by your engine supplier, Ferrari and Mercedes are effectively the only teams on the grid with control over their own destiny.
     
  17. MatskiMonk

    MatskiMonk Premium

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    It's my understanding that the rules prevent any further in season development, it appears to me as though they are not allowed to catch up.
     
  18. psychoazubi

    psychoazubi

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    Development is still possible with the tokens they have left (Mercedes 7, Ferrari 10, Renault 12) but you can hardly catch up 1 sec with 10-12 tokens. Mercedes won't use their tokens unless they gain much power with a new part or Ferrari/williams make a huge step forwards
     
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  19. TenEightyOne

    TenEightyOne Premium

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    My suspicion is that in addition to having a fundamentally good design the Mercedes takes advantage of some clever fuel piping to alter the fuel flow and inhibit fuel at certain points in the lap/throttle-curve and deliver over the regulatory amount at other points in the curve... hence the FIA's introduction of further fuel-flow sensors past the tank.

    It'll be interesting to see if the Merc performance is reigned in at all by that.
     
  20. Soundtrack

    Soundtrack

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    Didn't the teams found a loophole around the lack of set date for engine homologation for 2015, somehow allowing them a sort of unfreeze in terms of development?
     
  21. spacecowboy73

    spacecowboy73

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    I think a big part of the problem is as Helmut Marko basically said there is not enough room in the rules for innovation in aero anymore so this makes it impossible for Red Bull to make up their engine deficit.
     
  22. MatskiMonk

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    I thought the FIA had said only Honda could delay it all. I could be wrong, I don't follow it that closely anymore. But surely if the engine "freeze" wasn't being enforced more people would be talking about the cost of development, rather than the lack of options.

    edit: psychoazubi cast some light on my understanding of it.
     
  23. spacecowboy73

    spacecowboy73

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    Yeah, they can develop the engine in season now but it's still limited by the tokens.
     
  24. TenEightyOne

    TenEightyOne Premium

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    No home race for Rosberg this year (except Monaco, of course), Hockenheim is definitely off the cards for 2015 according to the circuit bosses :(
     
  25. GTPorsche

    GTPorsche

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  26. Peasantslayer

    Peasantslayer

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    I think they can also make changes for reliability/cost reasons which don't affect the tokens, it was talked about a lot last year and somebody mentioned it on SkySportsF1 in Aus, might have been Brundle.
     
  27. shoemaker

    shoemaker

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    Audi will join in making engines as of next season from what ive heard, red bull are offering big money and also its ideal for audi to test the waters for a works team in a couple of years. i would like that very much aswell !
     
  28. R5

    R5 (Banned)

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    Not official, not likely.
     
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  29. Imari

    Imari

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    While yes, in season development is limited (as others have explained), I was more referring to future seasons. It may be impossible to catch up this year, but if anything Mercedes is further ahead this year than last. Or that's how it appears so far.

    If Mercedes isn't cheating, then the other teams need to pull their fingers out.

    As I recall, Red Bull's defense against Ricciardo's disqualification last year was based in part around them showing what the injectors put into the engine.

    While you're right that there could be advantages to having a fuel reservoir downstream of the fuel flow sensor to allow you to fool that, you can't really cheat at the injectors without just lying about what they're doing. You can max out to whatever short term variation the FIA allows nice and easily, but the other teams should be doing that already as that seems pretty basic. Any team that's not maximising both the long term fuel flow and the short term is just dumb, and deserves everything they get.

    It seems odd to me that the FIA can't get enough data out of the teams to have at least a decent guess at injector flow. I'd have thought that between throttle position and ECU it wouldn't be a problem, although I suppose Mercedes could have the world's sneakiest injectors with their own little computers that apply corrections to whatever the ECU tells them to do. That would be quite clever, and totally illegal.

    While I have no doubts Mercedes (or any team) will bend rules as far as they can, I think Mercedes in particular is unlikely to be outright cheating. They have so much to lose that surely rational choice would make them give up a little bit of their ridiculous advantage rather than risk damage to their brand. It seems unlikely that any single rule infringement gives them all their advantage.

    For reference of those who don't know what we're talking about:

    http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/118066

     
  30. prisonermonkeys

    prisonermonkeys Premium

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    No, they changed the engine mapping rules because they weren't happy with the direction that teams were taking it. Red Bull just happened to be the best at it, but everyone was doing it to the point where the engines were designed to have those aggressive maps to the point where taking them away would damage the engines. Why do you think all of the teams lobbied to the FIA to get concessions for the mid-season ban?
     
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