2016 Le Mans 24 Hours - 15th to 19th June 2016

[GTPorsche]

Yes but can you be more respectful?

I'll be more respectful when people stop taking my posts out of context.

 

[LMSCorvetteGT2]

Like the #7 and #1 cars did?

Nobody's perfect.

Yeah just like Miley says.

 

[Com Fox]

Yes but can you be more respectful?

Well what screwed over Toyota was no one other than the car itself, so it didn't really have what it takes to win.

 

[GTP Ziggy]

Probably the the most cruel moment i've witnessed in watching motorsports for over 50 years .

A similar fate happened with Peugeot in the 2010 Le Mans race. With their 908 HDI FAP, which evovled after their comeback in 2007 to 2010 from the 905 in the 1990's. The car show extreme speed but was plagued with reliability issues. After winning Le Mans in 2009, breaking Audi's streak, the 908 came back to Le Mans in 2010 and expected nothing more than victory. Four 2010-spec cars were entered, 3 from the Manufacturer and one from Team Oreca. Qualifying proved to be easy-going for them, even in qualifying, with Loic Duval setting the track record at the time of a 3:19. Once the race came, Peugeot was expect to finsh 1, 2, and 3. They were off to an explosive start, even with the Audi's trying and consistent pace. But by the end of the race the three factory cars expired, one from a suspension mounting two hours into the race and the others from blown engines, one in the morning and one nearing the closing hour of the race. It eventually came upon the privateer Oreca 908 to bring home a podium, let alone a finisher. Just as the Oreca 908 entered the last hour, the engine gave way just like the other two factory cars before it, and not a single 908 finished, despite all the funding given and intense simulation procedures the 908 was tested under... Audi came home with the 1-2-3 victory and they really did not want to win from their rivals being broken, but unfortunately, the nature of endurance racing time and time again comes down to the variable of reliability. The No. 2 919 was able to sustain throughout the race longer for the victory, and to come to the final lap and lose in that fashion is extremely hard to believe having never seen an event like this occur, but not unbelievable.

A Peugeot spokesperson said at the end of that 2010 race: "We'll learn from our defeat today to return stronger." As hard as it is to compare a seemingly spontaneous problem and result for Toyota, which will be hard to sink in, this is what they will have to do (to this effect and all they can do) to advance their WEC career to the future.

 

[Northstar]

I don't want to start conspiracy theories or anything, but this guy was seen at the track wearing Porsche gear.

 

[CodeRedR51]

Well what screwed over Toyota was no one other than the car itself, so it didn't really have what it takes to win.

Agreed somewhat, but people saying that the team didn't have what it takes to win is completely disrespectful in my opinion. They proved 100% that they can get the job done. A part in the car failing is out of their control.

Let's not forget that not only would this have been a win if the car held up, but a 1-2 finish. Seems people are forgetting about the other car.

 

[Coiler]

Agreed somewhat, but people saying that the team didn't have what it takes to win is completely disrespectful in my opinion. They proved 100% that they can get the job done. A part in the car failing is out of their control.

Let's not forget that not only would this have been a win if the car held up, but a 1-2 finish. Seems people are forgetting about the other car.

1-3 , the question is did the enginer of the car see that there is something wrong? My answer Yes because that wasnt a blowup or something. If someone did hear the engine sound was it not like on a pit limiter?

 

[CodeRedR51]

1-3 , the question is did the enginer of the car see that there is something wrong? My answer Yes because that wasnt a blowup or something.

Ah yeah, 1-3. My mistake.

 

[Earth]

 

[CarBastard]

It was rock solid reliable for 99.9% of the race. Saying the car is unreliable because it finally had an issue with 1 lap to go is not giving them enough credit. It's an endurance race, parts fail. Those that make it to the end with no issues are nothing but lucky.

Thank you.

I cannot believe how the word "unreliable" is being tossed around like it was nothing. Clearly, by people who weren't even awake for the entire time and couldn't appreciate the sheer stress and toil that time takes on something for 24 hours. Take, for instance, the time Audi took revenge on Peugeot with the R15+. Peugeot were fast but unreliable because all their cars failed hours before the race ended, most of them with a similar failure. Somebody already brought up this example but the wrong way around. Unlike Peugeot, Toyota not only showed unrelenting pace and frugality throughout all the race, the incident on #5 didn't happen to it's sister car and didn't happen right until the very end.

For all we know, it could've been a pretty simple and stupid part and most likely one that came from a third-party provider, perhaps a bolt that came out of the forge a fraction of a second too early and was a millionth percent too brittle. I think of it as an Apollo 13 kind of failure. Were the Apollo Lunar missions unreliable just because on one of them a tiny :censored:ing spring failed? Neither is the TS050.

But you know, benchracers, etcetera, etcetera.

 

[Nielsen]

I'm kind of shocked that so many people posting in this thread don't seem to understand what endurance racing is. Porsche shouldn't have been celebrating so hard because they were only lucky? WTF does that even mean?

It probably means Porsche would be more entitled to celebrate if Toyota had retired on the first lap.

As I suggested before, people are emotionally distracted by the fact the retirement happened so late. It's a common notion among endurance drivers that retirements better happen early on during a race. This way drivers are left dreaming how things might had panned out if retirement hadn't occurred, as opposed to feeling robbed of wasted effort and emotional investment later on. The former is obviously the more tolerable outcome when completion just isn't an option. This line of thinking underlines the fact that reliability is a matter of sufficient preparation for the expected distance.

Let's say the total race distance hadn't been shortened by the safety car during the first hour. Then the Toyota might had failed earlier due to covering a longer distance in a shorter amount of time. What if the safety car had stayed out for longer? That might had been enough to lower the mileage covered at completion, making Toyota survive the winning distance. What if there was no safety car at all? Then cars might had worn out differently as a result of keeping the intended pace for 24 hours. Moral of the story is that luck operates in broader picture than reliability, so teams better rely on reliability if they want to minimize the impact of luck.

 

[Jahgee]

Was hoping it'd be the whole group of people, but it's still as good as I expected it to be

 

[jontikis]

I still watch it and I'm like: How?!

 

[Tired Tyres]

They had issues with one of the cars in the Silverstone 6 hours, both cars failed at the Spa 6 hours, and they had issues again at Le Mans.

Reliability isn't their strong point with that car so far. Being a new car isn't an excuse either.

It's got the pace, but it breaks. Which just happens to put them in a better position than they were a year ago when they were nowhere to be seen in regards to pace.

Conveniently forgetting that out of THREE manufacturers NONE of them had a bullet proof car. One car had a clean run, the winner, that would have been two if the Toyota hadn't failed like that and it is arguable that the other Toyota's problems were "driver incident" related rather than intrinsic reliability issues.

 

[LeGeNd-1]

Remember 1983 Le Mans? The tables were (almost) turned on Porsche back then:

The win was fought right down to the line between the Rothmans Porsche 956s of Al Holbert (#3 car) and Derek Bell (#1). Bell was able to un-lap himself as the Holbert car was slowed by overheating (engine damage caused by an airflow blockage to the radiator that cooled the heads)and finally seized up on the last lap; luckily for Holbert it re-fired and made it to the end with smoke trailing from the exhaust. Holbert crossed the finish line 17 seconds ahead of a fast closing Bell.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1983_24_Hours_of_Le_Mans

We can say this or that but no matter how you look at it there is always an element of luck in racing. More so if it lasts for 24 hours.

One could also wonder what would've happened if Kobayashi didn't have that off and had to pit for repairs. Would they still be in 2nd place and thus inherit the lead (and win)?

Anyway, not saying that Porsche didn't deserve the win. But if I were one of the drivers I'd have felt quite hollow. Racing is racing though and you take what you can get.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

Am I the only one feeling that Fords showing just cemented that GTE needs to change? Either just scrap it and go with GT3, or give them more power and call it GT1. GTE was supposed to be cheaper than GT1, but now that is not the case anymore. If they want cheaper, go for GT3.
P2 will get a boost next year, so why not GTE aswell (one of the protests issued against Ford is that they were too fast compared to P2 though)? Ford and Ferrari where the the only two new cars, and the performance difference was really showing. Porsche will have a new car next year, but what about the other two? Will they even bother?
Maybe GT3 is the only way forward? What do you think?

 

[McRae555]

 

[Harley45]

A similar fate happened with Peugeot in the 2010 Le Mans race. With their 908 HDI FAP, which evovled after their comeback in 2007 to 2010 from the 905 in the 1990's. The car show extreme speed but was plagued with reliability issues. After winning Le Mans in 2009, breaking Audi's streak, the 908 came back to Le Mans in 2010 and expected nothing more than victory. Four 2010-spec cars were entered, 3 from the Manufacturer and one from Team Oreca. Qualifying proved to be easy-going for them, even in qualifying, with Loic Duval setting the track record at the time of a 3:19. Once the race came, Peugeot was expect to finsh 1, 2, and 3. They were off to an explosive start, even with the Audi's trying and consistent pace. But by the end of the race the three factory cars expired, one from a suspension mounting two hours into the race and the others from blown engines, one in the morning and one nearing the closing hour of the race. It eventually came upon the privateer Oreca 908 to bring home a podium, let alone a finisher. Just as the Oreca 908 entered the last hour, the engine gave way just like the other two factory cars before it, and not a single 908 finished, despite all the funding given and intense simulation procedures the 908 was tested under... Audi came home with the 1-2-3 victory and they really did not want to win from their rivals being broken, but unfortunately, the nature of endurance racing time and time again comes down to the variable of reliability. The No. 2 919 was able to sustain throughout the race longer for the victory, and to come to the final lap and lose in that fashion is extremely hard to believe having never seen an event like this occur, but not unbelievable.

A Peugeot spokesperson said at the end of that 2010 race: "We'll learn from our defeat today to return stronger." As hard as it is to compare a seemingly spontaneous problem and result for Toyota, which will be hard to sink in, this is what they will have to do (to this effect and all they can do) to advance their WEC career to the future.

Watched that Race as well , yes it was a horrible moment seeing each car fail one after another . 1 hour an 19 mins to go and the Team Oreca the last of the 908's failed as it blew it's turbo unit . What struck me then was the pain an sheer emotion in the face of Olivier Quesnel the then team principal of the Pegeuot Team , Yesterday brought back that same pain this time to the Toyota Team with just minutes left in the race .

The Le Mans 24 hr is still the greatest test of man and machine , but she is a cruel mistress .

 

[SiriusR]

I'll be more respectful when people stop taking my posts out of context.

We will stop taking your posts out of context when you stop taking others' posts out of context. *hints at your "apparently DSQ = win" post*

 

[DK]

Does the Toyota losing at the final few minutes remind anybody of the Netherlands in the World Cup?

I'm not trying to be offensive, and call me superstitious, but, perhaps some things just aren't meant to happen.

A tyre puncture in the final few minutes in 1999, a part from the FIA that went malfunctioning in 2014, and now this in 2016. Toyota has been a frontrunner for quite a few times, and has seen the Le Mans title being taken away from them in all those times.

There goes a saying in my local language that 'somebody isn't born to be a champion'. Perhaps Toyota is that 'somebody' in Le Mans.

Congratulations to Porsche, but to me, Toyota deserves this win more.

The first football team that came to my mind after the #5 ran out of luck was Liverpool, especially because of this:

 

[CarBastard]

Am I the only one feeling that Fords showing just cemented that GTE needs to change? Either just scrap it and go with GT3, or give them more power and call it GT1. GTE was supposed to be cheaper than GT1, but now that is not the case anymore. If they want cheaper, go for GT3.
P2 will get a boost next year, so why not GTE aswell (one of the protests issued against Ford is that they were too fast compared to P2 though)? Ford and Ferrari where the the only two new cars, and the performance difference was really showing. Porsche will have a new car next year, but what about the other two? Will they even bother?
Maybe GT3 is the only way forward? What do you think?

Nope, far from being the only one.

I came to the same conclusion after arguing with some Ford fanboys: we either go the GT1/LMGTP route or the GT3 route but a middle ground enforced with the BoP is too problematic and leads to farces like the one this year.

 

[TheCracker]

True to a degree, but these exceptional events usually take many years to fade from the collective memory of racing fans. 1999 was 17 years ago and yet everyone (here) knows about the tyre blow up that denied the TS020's victory.

To be fair, i had to look that one up. I knew the GT-One was close to winning, but i couldn't remember/never knew the circumstances behind it.

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Am I the only one feeling that Fords showing just cemented that GTE needs to change? Either just scrap it and go with GT3, or give them more power and call it GT1. GTE was supposed to be cheaper than GT1, but now that is not the case anymore. If they want cheaper, go for GT3.
P2 will get a boost next year, so why not GTE aswell (one of the protests issued against Ford is that they were too fast compared to P2 though)? Ford and Ferrari where the the only two new cars, and the performance difference was really showing. Porsche will have a new car next year, but what about the other two? Will they even bother?
Maybe GT3 is the only way forward? What do you think?

Heard a rumour that the new V12 TT from the DB11 will fit in the next vantage just saying.

 

[TDZdave]

Wasn't this year supposed to be the first year of the 600BHP GTE pro cars?

 

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

Wasn't this year supposed to be the first year of the 600BHP GTE pro cars?

Nah they are officially "around" 480bhp.

 

[Mt. Lynx]

Heard a rumour that the new V12 TT from the DB11 will fit in the next vantage just saying.

The reason they use the V8 in GTE is twofold though; 1: it's lighter than the V12.
2: engine placement. In GT3 they can place the V12 as far down and as far back as they need, but in GTE, the placement is highly regulated (something similar goes for suspension pickup points, and is the reason why Audi won't develop the R8 for GTE).
If they want to use the TT V12, they are probably better off using the DB11 chassis.

 

[TDZdave]

Nah they are officially "around" 480bhp.

That would explain my confusion regarding the top speeds not being much over 300kph, which was more or less the same as last year,

Did Ford or Ferrari break the GTE regulations lap record?

 

[FoRiZon]

Nah they are officially "around" 480bhp.

As far as Im concern, the GTE cars on Le Mans are on marginally higher power (arround 50bhp) than GT3 class racers. True?

 

[G.T.Ace]

Go get 'em boys! So glad to see Toyoda saying this. <3
Maybe my dream to witness them winning will finally come true.

 

[Com Fox]

Am I the only one feeling that Fords showing just cemented that GTE needs to change? Either just scrap it and go with GT3, or give them more power and call it GT1. GTE was supposed to be cheaper than GT1, but now that is not the case anymore. If they want cheaper, go for GT3.
P2 will get a boost next year, so why not GTE aswell (one of the protests issued against Ford is that they were too fast compared to P2 though)? Ford and Ferrari where the the only two new cars, and the performance difference was really showing. Porsche will have a new car next year, but what about the other two? Will they even bother?
Maybe GT3 is the only way forward? What do you think?

Not really keen on that. GTE is meant to be like the Manufacturer's Team Cup of GT3 as GT3 doesn't allow Manufacturer Teams. Also, there is way too many GT3 Championships already, it is becoming seriously repetitive.

I wouldn't mind going back to GT1 regulations though or regulations based off GT1 or just calling it GT1 with a Speed Boost.