276HP - Magical Number?

[Holdenhsvgtsr]

In the US maybe, but here in the UK they have quoted figures well in excess of 276bhp for quite a while now (I think the EVO VII was the first in the UK to publish real figures with the Evo VII FQ-300 in 2003) .

Including the Lancer Evo VIII FQ-400, pushing out 400bhp and Mitsubishi in the UK were quite happy to publish the correct output.

Regards

Scaff

i think thats why mitsubishi claimed most of thier uk spec cars to be tuned by "ralliart" to get around the 276bhp rule?

 

[samj_13]

I've noticed antoher thing about Japanese automakers other than the 276 hp Gentlemen's Agreement. Is there a limit to 63 hp on Kei-cars? Or do they intentionally keep them down for fuel economy reasons or something?

Also, isn't Toyota developing a new Supra to compete with Nissan's GTR?

 

[Scaff]

i think thats why mitsubishi claimed most of thier uk spec cars to be tuned by "ralliart" to get around the 276bhp rule?

More likely just marketing (when the works rally team was actually doing something) to help shift the cars, strictly speaking ralliart are part of Mitsubishi and would still be covered by the agreement.

The entire 'gentlemans agreement' was designed purely for the Japanese market, it fits in with the manditory (and often over-ridden) 112mph speed limiter. This is one of the first thing done to a Japaense car imported into the UK (and a common thing to be done in Japan), as its a relatively easy task requireing a quick tweak of the ECU.

The 'Gentlemans agreement' was volentary and only paid lip service by all but Honda. The result just advertised the cars as having no more than 276bhp, when independent testing has shown power outputs far higher.

Regards

Scaff

 

[jbrennen]

I've noticed antoher thing about Japanese automakers other than the 276 hp Gentlemen's Agreement. Is there a limit to 63 hp on Kei-cars? Or do they intentionally keep them down for fuel economy reasons or something?

See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keicar

length: 3.39 m or less
width: 1.48 m or less
height: 2 m or less
displacement: up to 660 cc
power: 64 hp or less

It doesn't say how the "64 hp or less" is enforced...

 

[samj_13]

Thanks jbrennan.

 

[Wolfe]

I just thought I'd point out that the gentlemen's agreement was officially broken when Honda unveiled a 300hp V6 for its domestic-market Legend (known as the Acura RL in the 'states) in October of 2004.

 

[GT4_Rule]

It may be a little off - but I think the horsepower limit should be imposed now. We have this crazy hp war here - useless hp that will most likely not be used too often.

Now, back on the 276hp limit, I also believe the limit was broken by the RL.

 

[Famine]

I just thought I'd point out that the gentlemen's agreement was officially broken when Honda unveiled a 300hp V6 for its domestic-market Legend (known as the Acura RL in the 'states) in October of 2004.

Toyota were selling an advertised 326hp Supra in the UK from 1993 to 1998.

 

[Dave A]

Yeah but in Japan it officially had 276bhp.

 

[Scaff]

It may be a little off - but I think the horsepower limit should be imposed now. We have this crazy hp war here - useless hp that will most likely not be used too often.

Now, back on the 276hp limit, I also believe the limit was broken by the RL.

What a horsepower limit - never, we should be free to buy what we want.

Besides a horsepower limit is useless, for example the Caterham R500 would easily fit under a 276bhp limit (used for illustrations sake only), but has a power to weight ratio of a little over 500bhp per tonne.

Scaff

 

[jbrennen]

Besides a horsepower limit is useless, for example the Caterham R500 would easily fit under a 276bhp limit (used for illustrations sake only), but has a power to weight ratio of a little over 500bhp per tonne.

I wouldn't call it useless. It wouldn't necessarily keep vehicle speeds down, but it would be a way of indirectly policing fuel consumption and/or emissions. To a first order of approximation, the amount of fuel burned in a combustion engine (and thus the amount of exhaust generated) is proportional to its power output.


Of course, one could devise much better ways to limit fuel consumption and emissions, and at any one particular time, probably far less than 1% of the cars on the road are actually using more than 276bhp, so the overall effect on fuel consumption / pollution would be minor anyway.

 

[Scaff]

I wouldn't call it useless. It wouldn't necessarily keep vehicle speeds down, but it would be a way of indirectly policing fuel consumption and/or emissions. To a first order of approximation, the amount of fuel burned in a combustion engine (and thus the amount of exhaust generated) is proportional to its power output.


Of course, one could devise much better ways to limit fuel consumption and emissions, and at any one particular time, probably far less than 1% of the cars on the road are actually using more than 276bhp, so the overall effect on fuel consumption / pollution would be minor anyway.

Actually real world fuel consumption has a lot more to do with how the car is driven than the actualy power output, also higher output cars tend to be driven far less and quite simply fewer of them exist on our roads.

Trying to reduce fuel cosumption and/or emmisions by limiting higher power cars is about as effective as fighting a fire with a single ice cube.

I could go out right now and drive my 190bhp Celica, and by driveing in the right way get quite resonable figures. I could then jump in my wifes 54bhp Fiat Cinquecento and by red-lining it in every gear get single figure fuel consumption.

You are right as a broad guide the higher the power output the more fuel the car is capable of consuming, but capable is the important word here.

You also totally ignore the fact that higher power cars (globally) are fewer in number and generally cover a smaller mileage each year.

And what of all the lower power, old tech cars running around in developing countries? These engines have appaling fuel consumption figures and emmision off the scale.

Quite simply trying to defend horsepower limits on the basis of safety, speed or green issues is a flawed concept. Nice and ease for the green lobby to use for press sound-bites, but not of much actual practical use.

In my opinion tighter emmisions regulations overall (particularly for diesel engines) have a much greater overall effect.

Regards

Scaff

 

[jbrennen]

Scaff, I think your response and the second paragraph of my post basically say the same thing.

When you say that real world fuel consumption has to do with how the car is driven, I assume that you're talking about how much power output the driver chooses to use from the engine. A Fiat putting out 50 bhp will use more fuel than a Celica putting out 18 bhp, no argument there.

You also totally ignore the fact that higher power cars (globally) are fewer in number and generally cover a smaller mileage each year.

Far from ignoring it, I did say, "at any one particular time, probably far less than 1% of the cars on the road are actually using more than 276bhp." 👍

 

[Scaff]

Scaff, I think your response and the second paragraph of my post basically say the same thing.

When you say that real world fuel consumption has to do with how the car is driven, I assume that you're talking about how much power output the driver chooses to use from the engine. A Fiat putting out 50 bhp will use more fuel than a Celica putting out 18 bhp, no argument there.



Far from ignoring it, I did say, "at any one particular time, probably far less than 1% of the cars on the road are actually using more than 276bhp." 👍

Fair enough, but you still won't get me to agree on a horsepower limit

Scaff

 

[jbrennen]

Fair enough, but you still won't get me to agree on a horsepower limit

I wouldn't even suggest it. But you know how some folks can be -- not happy unless they're taking away somebody else's fun.

 

[GEMu]

How about the ZZII It 2 time over 280

 

[daan]

Because they don't have to obey the limit. It wasn't law. Tommy Kaira are only a tuner too, so maybe they weren't part of the agreement.

 

[Scaff]

How about the ZZII It 2 time over 280

Rather easy one that, the Gentleman's Agreement was made between Japanese manufacturers, as Tommi Kaira was not a Japanese manufacturer they did not take part, nor would they be required to.

TK's were only sold in Japan, but were actually manufactured in Norfolk in the UK.

Regards

Scaff

 

[FastEddie12]

Rather easy one that, the Gentleman's Agreement was made between Japanese manufacturers, as Tommi Kaira was not a Japanese manufacturer they did not take part, nor would they be required to.

TK's were only sold in Japan, but were actually manufactured in Norfolk in the UK.

Regards

Scaff

Well! I never knew that! Every day's a school day...

 

[GT4_Rule]

Wasn't Tommy Kaira grouped under Japanese cars?

 

[Sakiale]

They are often LISTED as 276, but are way more, like with the Evos, STis, etc.
Now they have 300+hp cars.

 

[WhackAzn]

thanks GT for the reply,

The Japanese have a "gentleman's agreement" that all cars they make are to be a MAXIMUM of 280PS, which translates to 276bhp. This is why you never get overally powerful standard Japanese cars as they're all at that limit. Now though, it seems they are thinking of breaking the agreement to make more powerful cars as 280PS just isn't enough anymore.

cause i never knew that before...

 

[DLRgian]

Thanks tips 👍 lol

 

[skaterava]

yep theres an agreement between them, like the fact that German car companies have agreed to not make cars that go over 155 Mph, apart from Porsches and the SLR Mclaren. Oh and there are a few exceptional tuner companies like AC shnitzer.

personally i think its a ****ty agreement cos the Japanese companies could make cars to top Lamborghinis and Aston Martins, but now they cant.....

 

[G.T]

personally i think its a ****ty agreement cos the Japanese companies could make cars to top Lamborghinis and Aston Martins, but now they cant.....

As said earlier in this thread, they have now broken the agreement, so expect some supercars with Lamborghini, Ferrari, etc matching power in the future. 👍

 

[Scaff]

thanks GT for the reply,

The Japanese have a "gentleman's agreement" that all cars they make are to be a MAXIMUM of 280PS, which translates to 276bhp. This is why you never get overally powerful standard Japanese cars as they're all at that limit. Now though, it seems they are thinking of breaking the agreement to make more powerful cars as 280PS just isn't enough anymore.

cause i never knew that before...

No thats not quite right and its been explained a number of times in the posts above.

The limit of 280ps/276bhp was simply an agreement between Japanese manufacturers, it was never legally binding.

In addition to that while the manufacturers did advertise car as having a maximum power output of 280ps/276bhp it is well documented that the actual cars produced easily exceeded this.

Toyota Supras and Nissan Skyline GT-R's have been regularly dyno'd in excess of 300bhp, yet the literarture for these cars says they produce at most 276bhp.

To be blunt the only Japanese manufcaturer who actually seems to have enforced the agreement (it was never a ban) was Honda.

Your post above makes it sound as if the agreement was actually enforced and stuck to, and quite simply it was not.

It is now all null and void as almost all of the Japanese manufacturers have released details of future cars with power outputs well in advance of the agreed limit.

The interesting thing here is that the 'gentleman's agreement' is still strictly speaking in place.

Wasn't Tommy Kaira grouped under Japanese cars?

The grouping in GT4 are a bit loose to say the least, Tommy Kaira models were only sold in Japan, the most likely reason why they are grouped under the Japanese cars.

They were however manufactured in Norfolk in the UK, not in Japan, by a company that had Japanese backing but was British owned.

Hence the Gentleman's agreement would not apply.

Regards

Scaff

 

[Wolfe]

The interesting thing here is that the 'gentleman's agreement' is still strictly speaking in place.

Is it? Honda released a 300ps V6 for its domestic-market Legend in 2004. They didn't pretend that it made 280ps, they just came out and said, "this engine makes 300ps." Right around that same time was when the news of more-powerful NSX successors, Supra successors, and GT-Rs started popping up.

If I remember correctly, that was also the time that the 350Z received a bump to 300hp worldwide. All I know is that the Japanese-market Fairlady Z has 294ps today:



Looks to me like the agreement is over.