2J question...
- Thread starter Aphelion
- 89 comments
- 5,209 views
- 1,519
- Brighton
- Pluxtheduck
I've seen one run! Awesome car
NixxxoN
(Banned)
- 2,712
- Barcelona
I would like to see the real engine specs of the Chap 2J. I didnt find any specific info about it on the wikipedia.
However the Toyota, I dont think its fictional... 620 KG and 600 HP, in real life, and 800HP for the twinturbo version. Thats insane.
The handling may have been worse in real life but still... the power/weight figures are there.
- 44
- Arizona
- AirCav1970
The 2J used an all aluminum 496 cu inch big block Chevrolet rated at 680 HP. with a GM Turbo 400 automatic trans. modified by Jim Hall which is why the 2J has only 3 gears.Chapparal did not develop their own engines. I saw the 2J run at Riverside Raceway back in 1970 and if Maclaren hadn't whined and cried about Hall "cheating" by thinking out of the box with the fan set-up the car would have dominated the Can-Am series.
- 354
- Canada
Where did you get your hp value from? According to http://www.ultimatecarpage.com/spec/91/Chaparral-2J-Chevrolet.html you're 80hp short and a few cubic inches over
- 5,588
- Dahlonega, GA
- ryzno
I saw it on some show on SPEED channel.
I think the fan was run by a lawnmower engine, or something like that.
Even though it did not provide power to the wheels, the fact it had more then 1 power sorce was the only violation, the big name teams could find to boo who about its domination, (when the car would acutally run without mechanical problems.)
NixxxoN
(Banned)
- 2,712
- Barcelona
Don't know about the 2nd engine... But the main reason was the fan, safety issues, for example when small rocks or some dirt was on the tarmac, they got sucked by the fan and thrown into the cars behind. So... the fan car not only was very fast but also could screw the cars behind by throwing stuff to them
Happened with the F1 Brabham fan car too, instant success, instant piss-off from the rivals, instan ban.
- 354
- Canada
Actually the second engine was a big reason, it even states that in the car info section in the game. That was the technicality that got it banned.Don't know about the 2nd engine... But the main reason was the fan, safety issues, for example when small rocks or some dirt was on the tarmac, they got sucked by the fan and thrown into the cars behind. So... the fan car not only was very fast but also could screw the cars behind by throwing stuff to them
- 7,370
- Houston, TX
- ryandude2448
They are referring to the 2 fans in the back. Actually, they can run the real engine without starting up the fan engine, but I guess that defeats the purpose of the 2j.
If they were to remove the fans all together, they could just put a giant spoiler I it like every other car they made. It's weird though because the 2H (2F maybe? I forgot? ) had a spoiler that adjusted through a pedal where the clutch would be.
- 447
- Port Lockroy
- Convergent-
- IHaveNoXbox88
Minolta!!!!
- 132
- lavosim
You are forgetting lousy aerodynamics and the fan itself. Aerodynamics are really bad, firstly since its a box in the back, backwash must have been terrible, then add two fan exits and it's even worse. Now the fan will increase cornering speed, but it will also significantly reduce top speed since its constantly sucking the air from under the car. So even if the engine really was as powerful as is represented in the game, those two things will kill its output. Add already mentioned compete lack of downforce and you see that the car as represented in the game is fictional, far far from what it was.
Same for Toyota 7. Forget weight and horse power ration, look at how it accelerated and corners in the game. It has one lousy wing and gains f1 level acceleration and grip. Sure...
NixxxoN
(Banned)
- 2,712
- Barcelona
- 132
- lavosim
Getting canam times is a problem. One way to compare is look at its competitors of 1970's season. A version of Porsche 917 was present, and 917 has a lap time on Nordschleife of 7:23,8. It ran on older version of the track. Inner part was just the same is used by manufacturers today, but it had a bit longer start loop that added 200 meters.
For an example the record on that version has Lauda with 6:58,2. And when in the early 80s that version went out of use, Formula 2 and Touring cars (!) both were getting close to Laudas time. So you can argue that modern production GT-R Nismo and 918 Spider would be very close to best time, while track based Zonda R would even beat it. And that's Laudas 1970's Ferrari 312b, not 917s, turbo, lemans winners time!
Then you can take Brabham fancar for another example. It's more modern, but has about the same numbers 650kg, 520bhp. It was further refined version of ground effect vehicle, and thou it was quickly banned after only one GP event, you could see it there that it was close to legendary ground effect Lotus 79 as it came second/third after Lotus in qualifying. Brabham won that race, but if it was faster, it wasn't light years ahead. So we just dig for a comparative track on which 79 raced, and we find old Hockenhaimring.
Same track, minus one chicane. Lotus qualified first with 1.51,90. Modern F1 in 2001 with added chicane 1:38.11.
So there you have it. 2j should be as fast or even slower as road going GT-R. HP and weight are just poor numbers when you compare them to technological advancements of forty years.
For an example the record on that version has Lauda with 6:58,2. And when in the early 80s that version went out of use, Formula 2 and Touring cars (!) both were getting close to Laudas time. So you can argue that modern production GT-R Nismo and 918 Spider would be very close to best time, while track based Zonda R would even beat it. And that's Laudas 1970's Ferrari 312b, not 917s, turbo, lemans winners time!
Then you can take Brabham fancar for another example. It's more modern, but has about the same numbers 650kg, 520bhp. It was further refined version of ground effect vehicle, and thou it was quickly banned after only one GP event, you could see it there that it was close to legendary ground effect Lotus 79 as it came second/third after Lotus in qualifying. Brabham won that race, but if it was faster, it wasn't light years ahead. So we just dig for a comparative track on which 79 raced, and we find old Hockenhaimring.
Same track, minus one chicane. Lotus qualified first with 1.51,90. Modern F1 in 2001 with added chicane 1:38.11.
So there you have it. 2j should be as fast or even slower as road going GT-R. HP and weight are just poor numbers when you compare them to technological advancements of forty years.
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- 132
- lavosim
Not in a straight line.
2j is race car from 1970. You don't understand what modern tires, brakes, aerodynamics and electronics can do. Tires will give you the most. Back then they were rubber blocks hard as stone, now they can mix them specifically for each individual circuit, giving unprecedented grip advantage. Brakes will stop you hundreds of meters sooner and allow you to trail brake. Electronics will make you as good as physics allows at accelerating out of corners and aerodynamics will make fan advantage low. Add 200hp of kers and road legal 918 Spider can run Nordschleife under seven minutes.
2j was a wonderful design. And Chaparall just as wonderful company, but when it's put next to modern supercars it pales.
- 8,100
- Guelph, Ontario
That's absurd, a 600hp+ car that weighs less than 2000lbs is going to murder a normal car in a straight line, even if it does have over 800hp.
I understand perfectly what new equipment can do. It doesn't change the fact that one is a race car and one is a roadcar.
"Hundreds of metres."
I'd like to see a 918 outbrake a 2J by over 600 feet into ANY corner.Trail braking has been a thing since the start of racing, and a car specifically designed to have a giant sucker fan on the back isn't going to be outdone by a little wing of a roadcar. Especially when the entire racecar is designed as a wing.
Nurburgring times mean nothing, but if you want to argue with that...
Just under 7 minutes on the short version, whereas the 2F did the the 2km longer version in the mid 8s in the 60s.
Subtract about 40 seconds to cover the extra distance and the times are the same.
But that's the 2F, the 2J had the extra downforce of the fan.
It was also in the 1000km race, so they weren't going on a flying lap.
Plus the track was a lot rougher and slower.
Plus the Porsche cheats anyways.
Race cars are an entirely different breed from supercars that have to be able to run reliably day in day out.
- 7,370
- Houston, TX
- ryandude2448
Race car from 1970- yes, yes it is. RACE. CAR.
Racing tires, brakes, aerodynamics- It has a fan that is strong enough to hold it to a ceiling. I don't care how much downforce a Porsche 918 Spider has, it can't hold a car upside down onto a ceiling. It has 12 inch ventilated brakes, and I can promise you it doesn't take 600ft to come to a stop. If it did, the car wouldn't exist because it crashed into walls before it could even put the accelerator down. 17 inch wide tires in the back (14 in front). 17 inches= 425mm, which, even with hard compound, is probably better than the 295's or so the Porsche has.
Power and weight wise, it had N/A 680 HP and weighs 2,080 pounds. That HP graph is a straight line.
If I recall correctly, I did a 6:40 with a stock 2J at Nurburgring with all aids off, so if a skilled person did it, it would be like 6:10.
