Miata sized Toyota Sports Car in development

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A new Paseo?

honestly you can't get much slower then the Current GT86 and still claim sports credentials.

Surely it will be a 2 Seater though if they want to make it smaller.
 
Mid engine layout is expensive so I can't see it since they said it will be the entry level sports car.

Looks like they are making an MX-5 sized car.
 
Mid engine layout is expensive so I can't see it since they said it will be the entry level sports car.
What makes a mid engine layout more expensive? The only thing I can think of that would make it more expensive then say a Front engine front wheel drive car is suspension tuning and car balance tuning.

Toyota did this once coming into the 80's with the mr2 with quite a good time developing the MR2.

Speaking of entry level cars would you consider the original MR2 a non-entry sport car of its time? Where are your facts stating that a mid engined car is expensive to research and develop? I am sure Toyota has a firmer grasp on the subject of researching and developing a car more then you or I will ever have in our lifetime.
 
Every MR2 ever has been an entry level sports car.

A new one would be awesome. Somehow the MX5 and MR2 compliment each other. 2 different ethos and two compelling cars.
 
I read the thread title as Mid sized Toyota Sports Car. I'm not sure, if I'm disappointed or not, but I've always considered the GT86 as a MX-5 competitor.
 
To give you an idea, the smaller version of 2000GT is Sports 800.

Supra is MR2

Kinda odd considering they compare to the GT86 instead of the more proable FT1, which hasnt been produced yet.
 
When are already having problems shifting BreezFrees', how do they expect to slot a car underneath it in size and price unless it is mid engined or something?
 
Supra is MR2

Supra is about 320kg heavier and cost more than twice as much...

OT... lovely :) I reckon it'll be a MR 2-seater... the new MR2. Certainly hope so, my MR2 and my MX-5 were my two most favouritest-ever cars. The only thing that spoilt the MR2 was it being silver not black, but even so it handled very well :D
 
Supra is about 320kg heavier and cost more than twice as much...

OT... lovely :) I reckon it'll be a MR 2-seater... the new MR2. Certainly hope so, my MR2 and my MX-5 were my two most favouritest-ever cars. The only thing that spoilt the MR2 was it being silver not black, but even so it handled very well :D
Isnt that the point? A cheaper and lighter version of existing car.

Still, I find it amusing seeing the GT86 Taking role as the heavy rather than other way arround with the FT1.
 
Isnt that the point? A cheaper and lighter version of existing car.

Still, I find it amusing seeing the GT86 Taking role as the heavy rather than other way arround with the FT1.

Maybe I misunderstood when I read "Supra is MR2"?

But yes, I otherwise agree :D
 
When are already having problems shifting BreezFrees', how do they expect to slot a car underneath it in size and price unless it is mid engined or something?

Only way I can see it working is by making it a shortened/lightened two-seat GT86 based on the same architecture. That way the cost of engineering is lower, and they can possibly shift the car for $4-5k less?
 
What makes a mid engine layout more expensive? The only thing I can think of that would make it more expensive then say a Front engine front wheel drive car is suspension tuning and car balance tuning.

Toyota did this once coming into the 80's with the mr2 with quite a good time developing the MR2.

Speaking of entry level cars would you consider the original MR2 a non-entry sport car of its time? Where are your facts stating that a mid engined car is expensive to research and develop? I am sure Toyota has a firmer grasp on the subject of researching and developing a car more then you or I will ever have in our lifetime.
Possibly but back in the 80s many mainstream cars could be sold with real leather, real wood and real steel and still be affordable, those times are soo far gone now it's not funny so it's not even comparable.

Also the last gen MR2 sold for more back in the early 2000s then what the GT86 sells for now and that is not even counting inflation (which makes it even worse).

These days it's all about making the car as compatible parts wise with as other cars many as possible so it drives production costs down per part so the car can be cheaper.

It's why nearly Half of VAGs cars are based on the Golf, making a mid engined layout car will almost certainly be more expensive then the GT86 as it will require too many bespoke parts and will drive the price up and in turn more expensive.
 
honestly you can't get much slower then the Current GT86 and still claim sports credentials.
Why not? The new 1.5 Miata is slower than a GT86 and nobody (except probably muscle car bros) is questioning that one. As ever with these things, it's not about straight line speed, it's about fun.

Realistically, the new smaller, slower sports car could actually be more exciting than the GT86 provided they give it a more willing engine. An inline four with a revvy character would instantly make it more appealing than the slightly flat-feeling flat-four of the 86, even if the bare numbers were lower.
Only way I can see it working is by making it a shortened/lightened two-seat GT86 based on the same architecture. That way the cost of engineering is lower, and they can possibly shift the car for $4-5k less?
This is the scenario I see. They've already gone to the effort of engineering a RWD car whose architecture isn't used elsewhere. Doing a truncated version of the same thing with a smaller engine (potentially the same as that of the 1.5 Miata, given Toyota and Mazda's recent technical partnership...) makes a lot of financial sense.
Possibly but back in the 80s many mainstream cars could be sold with real leather, real wood and real steel and still be affordable, those times are soo far gone now it's not funny so it's not even comparable.
The real cost of cars, relative to inflation, has been going down for decades. It's likely those cars with "real leather, real wood and real steel*" were more expensive than their equivalents today.

Anyway, "real wood" in cars no longer exists at low price points because it's unfashionable, not because it's expensive. The fad of weirdly moulded wooden dashboards died out in the 1990s, thank Christ.

* Whatever the bloody hell "real steel" is supposed to mean, anyway...
 
Why not? The new 1.5 Miata is slower than a GT86 and nobody (except probably muscle car bros) is questioning that one. As ever with these things, it's not about straight line speed, it's about fun.

Realistically, the new smaller, slower sports car could actually be more exciting than the GT86 provided they give it a more willing engine. An inline four with a revvy character would instantly make it more appealing than the slightly flat-feeling flat-four of the 86, even if the bare numbers were lower.

This is the scenario I see. They've already gone to the effort of engineering a RWD car whose architecture isn't used elsewhere. Doing a truncated version of the same thing with a smaller engine (potentially the same as that of the 1.5 Miata, given Toyota and Mazda's recent technical partnership...) makes a lot of financial sense.

The real cost of cars, relative to inflation, has been going down for decades. It's likely those cars with "real leather, real wood and real steel*" were more expensive than their equivalents today.

Anyway, "real wood" in cars no longer exists at low price points because it's unfashionable, not because it's expensive. The fad of weirdly moulded wooden dashboards died out in the 1990s, thank Christ.

* Whatever the bloody hell "real steel" is supposed to mean, anyway...
The 1.5 is barely Slower to 60MPH then the GT86 and it corners faster then one, I think it qualifies

I DID say you can't get much slower.

The Miata competes with the GT86 in performance atleast so this isn't comparable as this model we are talking about is to be a lower model.


Yes prices have gone down due to extensive platform sharing and using cheaper materials all through out the car.

Completely uncomparable to cars back then.

Also your wrong on your claim the GT86 is bespoke, plenty of it's parts are either from other cars directly or modifed versions of them, it's also platform shared with the BRZ.
 
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Yes prices have gone down due to extensive platform sharing and using cheaper materials all through out the car.

Completely uncomparable to cars back then.
More wishy-washy conjecture that doesn't really support any point.

Even the crappiest cars built today have hard wearing fabrics, soft-touch plastics and mechanical integrity that relatively expensive cars from a few decades ago aren't even close to. The average 1-litre city car will do 150k miles without any major issues these days when its predecessors from the 80s would have rusted away or broken down in half that time.

And while platform sharing does help reduce costs, it's both nothing new (see Chrysler K, Fiat 124, Alfa 105-series, dozens of others throughout automotive history) and has no real correlation with cheapness. If anything, it allows automakers to build higher-quality products since they can standardise the bits that matter rather than wasting development budget on engineering umpteen solutions to a common problem.

I'm still intrigued to learn what "real steel" is too. Does it have anything to do with modern cars being better rustproofed, torsionally stiffer, stronger in an accident, transmitting less NVH, and being shaped into ever more complex forms? If that's not "real steel", then I'm not sure I want "real steel".

I'm also not sure what your point was referencing wooden trim, leather and "real steel". I actually agree with your assertion that developing a new mid-engined platform would be expensive (it is, and I'd be very surprised if Toyota went down that route), though the point about steel/wood/leather doesn't really illustrate it.
 
Durability and cost of materials are not the same thing just so you know, reliability is something that has been improved over time though advancements in technology, its not as said before conclusive to costs of materials.

Also forget my Real steel claim what I meant was steel bodied.

Platform sharing isn't new but it's much more extensive now then ever, complete driveline sharing is much more common then in the past too when it was fairly normal for each car to get bespoke engines.

http://www.autonews.com/article/20140804/OEM10/308049988?template=mobile

Im sure your familiar with Henry fords production line and how the more and faster you build, the cheaper each part can be philosophy works.
 
I was in the market to buy the MR-S, S2000 and MX-5 back in the day(in the USA). I liked the MR-S because it was a baby F355. The S2000 because of the 9000rpm red line and the MX-5 because it was the most liveable allrounder. The MR-S was priced right but the storage space is what killed it. Compared to S2K and MX-5 storage, there's no comparison. I'd get one here in six but there are only the semi-auto versions 👎

An FR mini 86 seem more likely as was pointed out bringing back that spirit of the sports 800.
 
Durability and cost of materials are not the same thing just so you know,
Indeed I do know. Though I don't think what I said actually contradicted anything - the quality of plastics and fabrics is higher in both terms of feel and durability. I'm not sure how that correlates with "cheaper materials". In what way are the materials cheaper? In terms of volume? Sure. In terms of quality, or lack thereof? That's conjecture again.
reliability is something that has been improved over time though advancements in technology, its not as said before conclusive to costs of materials.
Technology directly influences quality, and technological advancement and improved quality come at a cost.

That can be materials as much as it is more stringent quality control procedures. I've been to a modern engine plant and seen the bins full of engine components that didn't pass quality inspections. That's despite engines being built to tighter tolerances than ever. I bet a British Leyland plant in the 70s didn't chuck out bits even if they had visible defects from poor materials and sloppy manufacturing processes. Yet the real cost of an Austin Maxi or similar is higher than most modern equivalents.

But you still need to clarify what you mean.

You said :
back in the 80s many mainstream cars could be sold with real leather, real wood and real steel and still be affordable
This doesn't make any sense. Cars featuring real leather were, in relative terms, as expensive back then as they are now. Or not, since even fairly basic cars now have leather wheels and gearknobs. Few cars use real wood, but that's mainly a stylistic thing. And this:
Also forget my Real steel claim what I meant was steel bodied.
...still makes very little sense. Most cars today still have a steel structure. Or steel and aluminium, which is more expensive. Or steel and high-strength variations of steel, which is also more expensive. Some cars have plastic wings or other panels, but I'm not sure I can see a scenario in which that's a bad thing, since they don't rust, absorb knocks better than steel, typically weigh a bit less and can be formed into all sorts of weird and wonderful shapes quite easily. Does using plastic fenders keep costs down? Potentially, though I'm not sure it's enough to make a point out of.
Platform sharing isn't new but it's much more extensive now then ever, complete driveline sharing is much more common then in the past too when it was fairly normal for each car to get bespoke engines.
Im sure your familiar with Henry fords production line and how the more and faster you build, the cheaper each part can be philosophy works.
Again, what are you actually trying to tell me here?

If you're trying to illustrate that a mid-engined sports car would be more expensive to build, then I need no convincing - I've already agreed with you on that.

But your original point was that the lack of wood/leather/steel seems to have some kind of bearing on why it's now more expensive to build a mid-engined car. Or something.

I think you're overstating the importance of platform sharing, too. It's not as simple as dropping different bodies onto identical chassis (like a Beetle - that other example of widespread platform sharing in the automotive industry). Take MQB for example - the elements that are basically identical throughout the cars that use it are very few. From memory, it's the front bulkhead and subframe, and elements of the floorpan.

Producing those as common parts does save money, as do common engines, but the entire rest of the car is pretty unique to each model. You can see that by comparing something like an Audi TT with a Skoda Octavia Estate. Despite what keyboard warriors will tell you, neither drives alike, the interiors are completely different, no exterior panels are shared, no suspension components are shared, and there's a crossover of maybe an engine and gearbox or two. And those are in different states of tune.[/quote][/QUOTE]
 
Platform sharing isn't new but it's much more extensive now then ever,
I think any company going into the next five years would be hard pressed to do anything that Chrysler didn't already do in the 1980s and 1990s (and GM to a lesser extent ever since the 1980s).
 
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Possibly but back in the 80s many mainstream cars could be sold with real leather, real wood and real steel and still be affordable, those times are soo far gone now it's not funny so it's not even comparable.

Also the last gen MR2 sold for more back in the early 2000s then what the GT86 sells for now and that is not even counting inflation (which makes it even worse).

These days it's all about making the car as compatible parts wise with as other cars many as possible so it drives production costs down per part so the car can be cheaper.

It's why nearly Half of VAGs cars are based on the Golf, making a mid engined layout car will almost certainly be more expensive then the GT86 as it will require too many bespoke parts and will drive the price up and in turn more expensive.
I have to disagree with the cost of the car here.

Currently a Scion FRS in my area would go for a MSRP of $25,650. Since there is no Toyota in the market currently that is MR for sale I figured let us look at what car would be in competition with a MR affordable sports car. Back in 2000 a great car to pit the 3rd generation MR2 to would have been a Mazda Miata.

2015 Miata MSRP in my area would be $23,970. Then going back and finding MSRP of a 2001 Miata (had a 2000 price earlier but lost it... then it was easy to find a 2001 price) is $24,790. Wait that is more expensive then the modern day base model... We are still going to whack $1000 off the price because I swear I found a brand new MSRP price on a 2000 Miata for 23,750 I believe. When the 2000 MR2 came out its MSRP $23,558.

I am not sure how much a GT86 would go for here, but basically it is the Scion FRS here. Both the brand new and old Miatas cost less MSRP then the FRS. The 2000 MR2 costs about the same the Miata did back then. I feel which is where I was going with this conversation is that Toyota could and should develop a new MR car. Now dealing with MSRP definitely does not include incentives or what deals you strike behind closed doors, which could lead to the GT86 selling for who knows how much.

Going into cross platform swapping within one's company to offer chassis that swap parts like legos, it is something that happens all the time. I believe the original MR2 shared a very notorious engine with the Corolla if I'm correct and today it is a common performance to swap in a silver top into the 1st gen MR2 chassis. That original MR2 did share parts with other offerings of Toyota at the time, but it was not a parts bin car. It did take quite a few years to develop it.

Taking that all into account, the more I think about it I would agree to a large extent that yeah it is probably not going to happen with a new MR platform which makes me sad. In the end of the day could Toyota develop a new MR car that would not be too expensive, I'm sure they have accountants an engineers that could make that possible: not likely though :-(
 
honestly you can't get much slower then the Current GT86 and still claim sports credentials.

Mid engine layout is expensive so I can't see it since they said it will be the entry level sports car.
Ummm...
s660-12.jpg
 
2015 Miata MSRP in my area would be $23,970. Then going back and finding MSRP of a 2001 Miata (had a 2000 price earlier but lost it... then it was easy to find a 2001 price) is $24,790. Wait that is more expensive then the modern day base model... We are still going to whack $1000 off the price because I swear I found a brand new MSRP price on a 2000 Miata for 23,750 I believe. When the 2000 MR2 came out its MSRP $23,558.

A lot of people don't seem to understand inflation, yes. Not only was the Miata more expensive in actual dollars, in the past. In inflation adjusted dollars, that 2001 would be about $30k.

Looking at inflation calculators... that's a good guess... it's actually $32k in today's money.





Anyway, "real wood" in cars no longer exists at low price points because it's unfashionable, not because it's expensive. The fad of weirdly moulded wooden dashboards died out in the 1990s, thank Christ.

* Whatever the bloody hell "real steel" is supposed to mean, anyway...

There is some small satisfaction in seeing that greenish tint on an old luxury car dashboard that tells you that moisture has gotten under the varnish.

Satisfaction here meaning "Hey, that's real wood"... not "Oh ****, that's going to cost a lot to replace." :lol: (I feel the same satisfaction seeing vinyl "woody" side panels... like walking into a museum... :lol: )

-

Wood is actually possible in modern cars for not all that much. Modern luxury cars don't use solid wood trim, anyway... just paper-thin wood veneer... which can be done on any car with plastic trim. The only issue, really, is it has to be done by hand... which raises cost.

But then, wood is unfashionable... "aluminum", "Chrome" and "carbon-fiber" are the trim choices du jour... so why put wood that'll rot, decay or discolor?

-

I believe the "real steel" dig is due to the perception that cars today are "not as strong" due to the thinner sheet metal used in the construction of the chassis. Which is to completely misunderstand the value of high tensile strength steel.

Granted, surface panels are much thinner than they've ever been... but underneath that paper-thin skin lies cars which will protect you in crashes where they'd be wiping you off the dashboard with a sponge in older, heavier, cars with thicker-gauge steel.
 
A lot of people don't seem to understand inflation, yes. Not only was the Miata more expensive in actual dollars, in the past. In inflation adjusted dollars, that 2001 would be about $30k.

Looking at inflation calculators... that's a good guess... it's actually $32k in today's money.
I have had no mention of the word inflation in my post. Although when comparing the price of the FRS and Miata I did say that the cost of the old and new miata models cost less then the FRS. Good pick up on that; however...

I wanted to paint a picture if we were buying these cars at their respectable time. I'm not really caring for inflation that is not where my point is coming from. What I was trying to point out was the price difference that one of Toyota's competition was priced extremely close back when the MR2 was offered here.

The only reason to bring up the 2015 model of the Miata versus the Scion FRS is to show the price difference between the 2015 FRS and Miata. Give or take these two are competition but not as good of competition the MR2 Spyder and Miata were. Both being roadsters back then.

The other point which I was trying to highlight was the we still can buy fun cars at the same price point today as we did 14 years ago. I think there is possible way that Toyota could produce another fun little MR Roadster or sports car. I am not saying that it is going to happen, but with what I have been seeing of new concepts and cars coming out I do not believe any of us can write off another funny MR car being produced by Toyota.
 
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