- 9,401
- Western Sydney
- mustafur
Do you think that is cheap for what it is?
Because I certainly don't.
Keep in mind in Japan there is a Market for Premium Kei cars.
Miata sized Toyota Sports Car in development
- Thread starter CodeRedR51
- 174 comments
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Because I certainly don't.
Keep in mind in Japan there is a Market for Premium Kei cars.
- 6,041
- Puget Sound
- Crash852
To nit-pick, I doubt a new mid-engined sports car would necessarily be appreciably more expensive to build, but a new mid-engined sports car would be higher priced, as the new engineering, facilities and tooling required would be rolled into the final selling price.
Otherwise, completely agreed with you.
- 27,163
- United Kingdom
Sorry, yes. "Build" was both a bit general and also the wrong word. It's the extraneous costs of manufacturing something very different from existing vehicles that increases cost. I suspect, if a company exclusively built mid-engined cars, then tooling up for a front-wheel drive vehicle would be equally expensive.
The S660 kei car above is an interesting one though. By kei car standards I presume it's reasonably expensive, though once you translate the currently weakish Yen against the strong Pound I bet it comes out depressingly cheap (the entry price of a GT86 in Japan is around £14,000 or something daft at the moment).
However, kei cars are literally a law unto themselves and not really representative of manufacturing elsewhere. In context, it's a great example to illustrate that one sole mid-engined car out of a lineup is more expensive than its alternatively-arranged equivalents, even if it uses mechanically similar components. The Honda Japan website says it's 1.98 million Yen. Versus 1.38m for an N-BOX Slash, 1.16m for an N-WGN, 1.18 for an N-ONE and 1.27 for an N-BOX. That's quite a bit.
@mustafur is right here. Kei cars are a niche unique to Japan and it operates like a whole market in itself. The S660 isn't so much evidence of a market for inexpensive mid-engined sports cars, as it is evidence of a market for sports cars in general, just squeezed within a very specific niche that rules out other types of sports car for those without their own parking space...
That's the case for the larger Toyota sports car being built, but I'm not sure it applies to the smaller one. Unless they use the 1-series platform or something, but that seems like hard work when they could use a scaled-down version of their own 86.
- 9,401
- Western Sydney
- mustafur
I do know the S660 also doesn't require much safety equipment as in Japan Kei cars have similar safety requirments as Motorbikes from memory.
This would drive the price a bit lower, which would increase the price for sure if they were to be introduced into markets such as UK, North America and Australia for example.
I remember when the Daihatsu Copen Sold in Australia it was quite expensive despite it having a conventional FWD layout, but it also was part of the Premium Kei car segment the S660 falls in.
Because most new cars sold in Japan are Kei cars due to their parking and tax advantages you then start to develop niches in that segment as even wealthy customers understand the benefits of such a class of car, so it makes sense.
Either way to be back on topic, i think all signs point to a Smaller sized RWD coupe thats possibly B Segment and maybe will use a more conventional engine from the Toyota family this time to drive costs down.
I really hope the 2.0T from the lexus NX gets used though even if in detune form, A Turbo would be good choice this time.
I think the Kei car route will probably be a no go though as to make a S660 competitor it will cost fairly similar to the GT86, bringing the Sprinter nameplate out of retirement would be good.
This would drive the price a bit lower, which would increase the price for sure if they were to be introduced into markets such as UK, North America and Australia for example.
I remember when the Daihatsu Copen Sold in Australia it was quite expensive despite it having a conventional FWD layout, but it also was part of the Premium Kei car segment the S660 falls in.
Because most new cars sold in Japan are Kei cars due to their parking and tax advantages you then start to develop niches in that segment as even wealthy customers understand the benefits of such a class of car, so it makes sense.
Either way to be back on topic, i think all signs point to a Smaller sized RWD coupe thats possibly B Segment and maybe will use a more conventional engine from the Toyota family this time to drive costs down.
I really hope the 2.0T from the lexus NX gets used though even if in detune form, A Turbo would be good choice this time.
I think the Kei car route will probably be a no go though as to make a S660 competitor it will cost fairly similar to the GT86, bringing the Sprinter nameplate out of retirement would be good.
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- 19,429
- HSV
It means: Made from recycled anvils.
What the hell do people want anymore? You want inexpensive and light, but you want 400 horsepower and then you wind up with SUV-mobiles or $80K four-door coupes. The Mazda Miata qualifies and it has less than 200 horsepower, no?
Yes, two door...but this means MR2 (not a bad car at all) but that didn't sell well enough.
- 9,401
- Western Sydney
- mustafur
Im not an idiot, but my point stands it can't claim much sports credentials just fun credentials.
I'm curious where you guys intend to draw the line on performance metrics or racetrack abilities without disqualifying a bunch of 20th-century sportscars or allowing modern V6 FWD family sedans into the category. Splitting the definition by model year wouldn't be a terribly elegant solution, either.
- 9,401
- Western Sydney
- mustafur
@mustafur -- The definition of a sportscar wasn't dependent upon a standard of performance back then anyway. I think you're confusing sportscars with performance cars. But as you said, to each their own.
- 9,401
- Western Sydney
- mustafur
I think the term Sports car needs a new Sub Genre.
Like how Hypercar has came from Supercar.
In General Terms Sports car has Always referred to Performance, then you have Sub genres for Body Styles like Super sedans and Hot-hatches.
Maybe another Genre for cars designed for a more leasure experience rather then performance, because an 86 for example is a totally different car to say a 911(it's idea of having Skinny rear tyres to increase it's ability to slide is the complete opposite of performance).
Like how Hypercar has came from Supercar.
In General Terms Sports car has Always referred to Performance, then you have Sub genres for Body Styles like Super sedans and Hot-hatches.
Maybe another Genre for cars designed for a more leasure experience rather then performance, because an 86 for example is a totally different car to say a 911(it's idea of having Skinny rear tyres to increase it's ability to slide is the complete opposite of performance).
- 9,401
- Western Sydney
- mustafur
- 23,800
- Philippines
A sports car is a sports car. However fast or slow it is.
It's like arguing about the definition of a "supercar" or a "hypercar"... they're all made up terms with subjective definitions... though at least "sports car" has a very concrete body definition...
"Low slung (subjective), usually roofless, with one or two seats, lightweight (subjective), high powered (subjective), purpose-built for high-speed driving (subjective)."
...though when you remove any item that leaves wiggle room, you're left with this:
"One or two seats."
Ergo: A Mini Coupe JCW qualifies. A Porsche 911, with two and two-half seats, doesn't (the 911 is considered by some as a Sports GT, and if we're talking the GT2 or Turbo, some suggest "super car" is more appropriate... and it probably is).
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Whatever Toyota builds, it will be built for performance driving, and if it's a two-seater, it can rightly be considered as a sports car. Probably a very slow one, as far as sports cars go, but still a sports car.
It's like arguing about the definition of a "supercar" or a "hypercar"... they're all made up terms with subjective definitions... though at least "sports car" has a very concrete body definition...
"Low slung (subjective), usually roofless, with one or two seats, lightweight (subjective), high powered (subjective), purpose-built for high-speed driving (subjective)."
...though when you remove any item that leaves wiggle room, you're left with this:
"One or two seats."
Ergo: A Mini Coupe JCW qualifies. A Porsche 911, with two and two-half seats, doesn't (the 911 is considered by some as a Sports GT, and if we're talking the GT2 or Turbo, some suggest "super car" is more appropriate... and it probably is).
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Whatever Toyota builds, it will be built for performance driving, and if it's a two-seater, it can rightly be considered as a sports car. Probably a very slow one, as far as sports cars go, but still a sports car.
- 48,817
- Australia
It's a Ute. In the utility category of cars. Now, the HSV Maloo would be a Muscle car. A Raptor or F-150 Lightning or Toyota Tacoma TRD X-Runner, GMC Sylclone. Those are sports trucks/utes.
In Best Motoring with the new 350Z, Gan-San felt it wasn't a sports car. It may be good for sporty driving but, not a true sports car. The same was said about the NC MX-5. it's good for sporty driving. Just opinions for sure but, in this category, if this new car is anything less than the 86, I'd agree it would be in a category above the Copen.
In Best Motoring with the new 350Z, Gan-San felt it wasn't a sports car. It may be good for sporty driving but, not a true sports car. The same was said about the NC MX-5. it's good for sporty driving. Just opinions for sure but, in this category, if this new car is anything less than the 86, I'd agree it would be in a category above the Copen.
- 9,401
- Western Sydney
- mustafur
If it ends up anything like this concept they are about to reveal then i am impressed, this looks far too radical for a Toyota though: http://www.carsales.com.au/news/201...l-sports-car-51330?intref=ed-news&csn_tn=true
If they go this route then who needs anything else.
Something like that with a basic Yaris engine would be enough to surpass a 86 in every area, as it would be under 800kg likely.
If they go this route then who needs anything else.
Something like that with a basic Yaris engine would be enough to surpass a 86 in every area, as it would be under 800kg likely.
- 2,128
- Australia
- N/A
- N/A
^ That's not a concept car. It's a fat gokart. Like most of Nissans concepts.
Honestly, I may consider buying this concept thing when it comes out, over the gt86 if it's under 25 grand AU. I love the 86 with a passion but it's just a tad out of my price bracket, especially considering I want some money left over to tinker around with it.
Honestly, I may consider buying this concept thing when it comes out, over the gt86 if it's under 25 grand AU. I love the 86 with a passion but it's just a tad out of my price bracket, especially considering I want some money left over to tinker around with it.
