Formula 1 Grand Prix du Canada 2017Formula 1 

SVT Cobra GT

SVT Cobra GT

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Last time out, Ferrari took their first win in Monaco since 2001 with a rather comfortable 1-2 victory which extended their lead in both championships and installed them as favourites for both. Now we head across the Atlantic for the first North American race in Montreal, Canada. The talk of the paddock will be Ferrari's result in Monaco, did they engineer a win for Seb? Or was he simply faster than Kimi? Everyone has their opinions on that but alas we will more than likely never know. Now the question is whether can Mercedes recover and take a win to keep the spice in the championship. Find out at the Canadian Grand Prix.

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CIRCUIT DE GILLES VILLENEUVE

FIRST RACE
1978

NUMBER
OF LAPS
70

CIRCUIT LENGTH
4.361KM (2.710 Miles)

RACE DISTANCE
305.270KM (189.694 Miles)

LAP
RECORD
1:13.622, Rubens Barrichello, Ferrari, 2004

TYRE ALLOCATIONS
Soft, Super-Soft & Ultra-Soft

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SKY SPORTS CLASSIC RACE SCHEDULE
Tuesday - Canada 2007
Wednesday - Canada 2008
Thursday - Canada 2011
Sunday - None

2016 RESULT

1 Lewis Hamilton (Mercedes)

2 Sebastian Vettel (Ferrari)

3 Valtteri Bottas (Williams-Mercedes)

2016 Fastest lap - Nico Rosberg (Mercedes) 1:15.599 (lap 60)​
 
It's time to play...

HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE FOR ALONSO'S ENGINE TO BLOW UP!!!!111ELEVEN!!!

In all seriousness, I would say about 5 laps. (Closest without going UNDER)

Also... How many on-track passes will there be past lap 1?

I would say about 3.
 
I think Ferrari could pull off another win here. Mercedes seem to have some gremlins at the moment.

After indycar driving that Mclaren must feel really slow :lol:
 
Vettel could've won this race last year. I'll be surprised if he doesn't this time around. I think Mercedes will be struggling with the tires again.
 
McLaren-Honda's big engine upgrade for Montreal is... is... not ready.

In perhaps the strongest statement from the McLaren management so far Zak Brown voices his doubts that McLaren can win a championship with Honda.

Zak Brown
Our preference is to win the world championship with Honda...but at some point you need to make a decision as to whether that's achievable. And we have serious concerns.

Missing upgrades, and upgrades not delivering to the level we were told they were going to, you can only take that so long. And we're near our limit. We're not going to go into another year like this, in hope. There's lots of things that go into the decision and we're entering that window now of 'which way do you go when you come to the fork in the road'
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That fork will presumably be at the end of 2017, the first likely "exit" point in the contract. Naturally McLaren should be well into developing the 2018 chassis by that point and will need to have known the breed of their 2018 engine for some time. Mercedes?
 
sems4arsenal
How can Honda be that incompetent?
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If you put it very simply it's two-fold, maybe three-fold. They started their development considerably later than everybody else and then they made some poor decisions to correct bad development trajectories. The third fold is more anecdotal: the Honda development team were not entirely honest to the uber-management about the poor results of their development workups.
 
TenEightyOne
If you put it very simply it's two-fold, maybe three-fold. They started their development considerably later than everybody else and then they made some poor decisions to correct bad development trajectories. The third fold is more anecdotal: the Honda development team were not entirely honest to the uber-management about the poor results of their development workups.
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This would explain last year's performance, but for two years in a row? that's farcical.

I know these engines are insanely complicated, but they genuinely seem like they have no idea what they're doing.
 
sems4arsenal
This would explain last year's performance, but for two years in a row? that's farcical.
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I can't disagree with "farcical" but remember that Ferrari, Renault/Ilmor and Mercedes have been developing all the time that Honda have - and they've been developing engines that weren't as crap to start with. Okay, so Renault's was fairly crap and we're seeing some grumblings from Red Bull about that again, but in all Honda got off late, on the wrong foot and then hopped the wrong way on it :D
 
TenEightyOne
I can't disagree with "farcical" but remember that Ferrari, Renault/Ilmor and Mercedes have been developing all the time that Honda have - and they've been developing engines that weren't as crap to start with. Okay, so Renault's was fairly crap and we're seeing some grumblings from Red Bull about that again, but in all Honda got off late, on the wrong foot and then hopped the wrong way on it :D
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Good point, but calling their engines crap would be an insult to crap.
 
TenEightyOne
I can't disagree with "farcical" but remember that Ferrari, Renault/Ilmor and Mercedes have been developing all the time that Honda have - and they've been developing engines that weren't as crap to start with. Okay, so Renault's was fairly crap and we're seeing some grumblings from Red Bull about that again, but in all Honda got off late, on the wrong foot and then hopped the wrong way on it :D
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Renault's engine in 2014 was better than Ferrari's. Ferrari got blown away by Red Bull at the power circuits in 2014, with Alonso's strongest race (by far) being the high speed aero dependent Hungaroring. Honda began working on their engine only a year or two after Ferrari and Renault, with reports that as late as 2012, Ferrari and Renault only had 50 and 20 people working on their 2014 engines respectively. Honda started in 2013, but would have likely put a lot into the project immediately, as they weren't working on any other F1 projects. Mercedes reportedly started working on hybrid race engine concepts before they even returned to F1 as team owners, hence the lead they had on the others when we got to 2014.

Ferrari compromised their 2014 engine to minimise it's footprint and cooling needs, to prioritise aerodynamics. The problem being that their aero wasn't great either, and although they did produce very good peak downforce, as was evidenced by the circuits they were at their strongest at, they seemed to struggle with a lack of power, high drag, balance, and inconsistent downforce, resulting in a very tricky car to both set up and drive. The very next year, and within the restrictive token system of 2015, Ferrari leap-frogged Renault by quite some margin, and closed in a decent amount on Mercedes (as far as the PU was concerned). They then continued to close in on Mercedes' PU advantage during 2016, and now seem roughly on par with them. So despite having the weakest PU in 2014, with estimated 100hp gap to Mercedes, Ferrari now, just 3 years later, have roughly the equal best PU on the grid. Yet Honda, after choosing to sit out 2014 while they worked on their PU unrestricted, have had 3 consecutive years with the worst current PU on the grid (I say current because 2015 Manor, 2016 Toro Rosso, and 2017 Sauber, all having year old PUs, don't really count toward this analysis).

Renault and Ferrari, being as little as 80hp, and as much as 100hp down on Mercedes in 2014, have both caught up significantly in 3 years of development, and are able to fight for wins (Renault with RBR). Honda in 3 years have barely managed to half their power deficit to Mercedes, and haven't managed to make really any inroads at all into making their PUs even remotely reliable.

They've had enough time to prove they're capable, and all they've proven is every step they make forward is followed by at least two steps back. Mclaren desperately need to end this failed experiment, because Honda clearly don't have the expertise or knowledge needed to succeed in F1, and Mclaren can't afford to continue spending in excess of $400m a year to be fighting with back-markers.
 
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Mike_grpA
Yet Honda, after choosing to sit out 2014 while they worked on their PU unrestricted, have had 3 consecutive years with the worst current PU on the grid
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All the engine builders had that luxury though, Honda just started a year late. I'm not making excuses for them - on the face of it they've done a **** job - but there were no development restrictions on any builder's pre-launch development.

Mike_grpA
Renault ... caught up significantly in 3 years of development, and are able to fight for wins (Renault with RBR)
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And we see Horner worrying that the engine's not strong enough this year and only this week semi-complaining that the promised upgrade will now come after the summer break. Again, they're still not in Honda territory but Renault's on-off woes (as a figure of speech rather than as in Honda's literally on-off engine :) ) show that it's not such an easy job.
 
TenEightyOne
All the engine builders had that luxury though, Honda just started a year late. I'm not making excuses for them - on the face of it they've done a **** job - but there were no development restrictions on any builder's pre-launch development.
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Yeah of course, but my point was it was only Mercedes who had a lot years of development behind their 2014 PU. Renault and Ferrari both had roughly a year more development than Honda, maybe a little more, but since Honda have been in the sport, both Renault and Ferrari have massively out-developed them.

TenEightyOne
And we see Horner worrying that the engine's not strong enough this year and only this week semi-complaining that the promised upgrade will now come after the summer break. Again, they're still not in Honda territory but Renault's on-off woes (as a figure of speech rather than as in Honda's literally on-off engine :) ) show that it's not such an easy job.
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Yeah, we see people at RBR complaining regularly about Renault, but RBR complains about anything and everything when they aren't winning, so that's nothing new. But with that said, I completely agree that Renault have been on-off, and it's definitely not an easy job, but it's not meant to be. This is F1, so it should be really difficult. Ferrari have done a much better job during the last 2-3 years of development than Renault, but Honda has by far done the worst job of them all. My point was basically that Ferrari have proven that it was possible to overcome Mercedes' PU advantage, as they have done by coming from having the weakest PU in 2014, to roughly equal strongest by 2017. Honda, in the same amount of time, have made barely any progress, and are struggling to even tread water. With a stronger PU Mclaren would be fighting up there with RBR most likely, and they deserve to be up the front there, instead of finishing back of the mid-field, on the rare occasions they finish at all.
 
TheElbows
Isn't this the big Red Bull update?
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No it was suppose to be the Renault PU update.

sems4arsenal
This would explain last year's performance, but for two years in a row? that's farcical.

I know these engines are insanely complicated, but they genuinely seem like they have no idea what they're doing.
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They don't, for reasons at @TenEightyOne has said and as I said on the development thread, Honda's solution to fix problems they didn't solve with their previous design, was to restart from scratch and go a new route where the turbo wasn't housed in the V, and yet again copying Mercedes', with their own spark ignition innovation. Once again all things that one, they hadn't done, and two were going to clearly need more than just winter testing and some dyno runs to make sure worked.

Then again it could just be more McLaren bad luck as well, wouldn't it be something if Honda got it right under Sauber (especially with former Audi lmp tech director), for next year and beyond.
 
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LMSCorvetteGT2
Then again it could just be more McLaren bad luck as well, wouldn't it be something if Honda got it right under Sauber (especially with former Audi lmp tech director), for next year and beyond.
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I was thinking this just the other day. From the things Brown and Boullier have been saying lately, it's entirely possible Mclaren will switch suppliers for next season, leaving Sauber essentially the works Honda team. Then if by some miracle Honda get their act together, Sauber will be able to at least have a crack at best of the rest behind the top 3 teams. I've got a bit of a soft spot for Sauber, so I'd like to see that :D
 
Sauber murdered Manor in cold blood. Being stuck with Horrible Honda next season is their karmic justice.

Mighty Mugen would never have let things get this bad in the Honda camp :P.
 
Mike_grpA
I was thinking this just the other day. From the things Brown and Boullier have been saying lately, it's entirely possible Mclaren will switch suppliers for next season, leaving Sauber essentially the works Honda team.
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If you look back through the Technical/Constructors thread you'll see that a Mercedes switch has been on the cards for some time - there have been veiled hints and omitted denials since early in the season.

History could be about to repeat itself - the last time a team jumped from Honda to Mercedes they took a championship that nobody thought they would. Admittedly very different circumstances but F1 is IF backwards and all that :)

JayOTT
Sauber murdered Manor in cold blood. Being stuck with Horrible Honda next season is their karmic justice.
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Arguably that was Bernie's business model, Sauber had every right to fight for points - they're not racing to give charity, they could barely afford 2016 themselves.
 
Sauber are a racing team, fighting for monetary survival themselves. The whole point of motorsport is scoring points, why do you think the chief aim of every team in motor racing was a conspiracy to kill another team?
 
I thought the :P and the use of alliteration was enough to tip people off on my previous post being jovial in nature.
 
TenEightyOne
History could be about to repeat itself - the last time a team jumped from Honda to Mercedes they took a championship that nobody thought they would. Admittedly very different circumstances but F1 is IF backwards and all that :)
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I can't see Mclaren winning another title if they switch back to Mercedes. At least not any time soon. They won't beat Mercedes with the same engine, because Mercedes have more money, more staff, better staff, and better facilities. Not to mention they also have better drivers. Mclaren have one thing going for them, and that's Peter Prodromou. If they hadn't managed to pinch him from RBR in late 2014, their aero would be every bit as crap as their engine. Remember how (un)competitive they were in 2014 despite having the dominant Merc engine in the back? Despite having at least an 80hp advantage over Ferrari and RBR, they finished 35 points behind Ferrari, and a whopping 224 points behind RBR. They even finished the season 139 points behind Williams, who had the same PU, so that shows just how bad Mclaren's 2014 chassis was.

They'd do better with a top engine, but they wouldn't be challenging Mercedes or Ferrari, they'd likely be somewhere close to RBR. At some tracks they'd have a shot at podiums, but they wouldn't be suddenly fighting for the title. To be honest, I reckon they'd be over the moon to be able to fight with RBR for podiums at some circuits. However, I'd love to see Honda come good for Sauber, just because it's Sauber, and everyone loves Sauber :gtpflag:
 
Would Honda's corporate culture have anything to do with their performance? I've heard they have to do everything in Japan and that it takes a lot longer to get things done.
 
Mike_grpA
I can't see Mclaren winning another title if they switch back to Mercedes. At least not any time soon. They won't beat Mercedes with the same engine, because Mercedes have more money, more staff, better staff, and better facilities. Not to mention they also have better drivers. Mclaren have one thing going for them, and that's Peter Prodromou. If they hadn't managed to pinch him from RBR in late 2014, their aero would be every bit as crap as their engine. Remember how (un)competitive they were in 2014 despite having the dominant Merc engine in the back? Despite having at least an 80hp advantage over Ferrari and RBR, they finished 35 points behind Ferrari, and a whopping 224 points behind RBR. They even finished the season 139 points behind Williams, who had the same PU, so that shows just how bad Mclaren's 2014 chassis was.
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Now that I look back at that, I do find it extremely odd that even before there was a Honda in the back they managed to finish that poorly and that was literally using the same engine as the world constructors champions (unlike all Ferrari powered teams, who don't appear to use the same current PU as Ferrari). I honestly am starting to wonder if this issue might be more of McLaren's fault then Honda's. I mean both with AND without Ron Dennis, Mercedes power or Honda Power, McLaren have been horrid in this Turbo Era. The fact that the results have been more or less the same despite those changes (Admittingly with more mechanical failures), I'm starting to think this "Fork in the road" is yet another Red Bull style pointing of fingers directing blame away from what actually might be the REAL problem.
 
RACECAR
I'm starting to think this "Fork in the road" is yet another Red Bull style pointing of fingers directing blame away from what actually might be the REAL problem.
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Despite the McLaren being faster than many of its rivals through bendy bits? Sure, they had a crap 2014 but that was two full seasons ago. I'm not sure that really means anything for this season.
 
RACECAR
Now that I look back at that, I do find it extremely odd that even before there was a Honda in the back they managed to finish that poorly and that was literally using the same engine as the world constructors champions (unlike all Ferrari powered teams, who don't appear to use the same current PU as Ferrari). I honestly am starting to wonder if this issue might be more of McLaren's fault then Honda's. I mean both with AND without Ron Dennis, Mercedes power or Honda Power, McLaren have been horrid in this Turbo Era. The fact that the results have been more or less the same despite those changes (Admittingly with more mechanical failures), I'm starting to think this "Fork in the road" is yet another Red Bull style pointing of fingers directing blame away from what actually might be the REAL problem.
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I think it's pretty clear that 2014's poor showing was down to a crap chassis and aero. In 2015, they had Peter Prod with them since late 2014, so their aero was much better right away, but their chassis lacked mechanical grip, and the Honda engine was a turd. In 2016, their engine was still a turd, but was much more reliable and capable than their 2015 unit. However, their aero wasn't as good, so despite overall being stronger last year (mostly thanks to better reliability), their aero wasn't as good as it had been in 2015. This year they once again seem to have built a strong aero platform, but the engine is just as bad as it was in 2015 again now.
 

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