Is Cosworth Planning a Return to Formula One in 2021?

I'm in favor.

I'm also in favor of investigating the hybrid electric supercharger in lieu of the turbocharger. I imagine benefits in heat energy recovery, cost and particularly sound.
 
Liquid
Cosworths should be V8s.
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IMO, the three most important racing engines of all time are: The 1912 Peugeot 4 cylinder DOHC French GP winner, the 1922 Miller Indy-winning straight 8, and the 1967 Cosworth V-8 DFV.
 
F1 regulations have become way too controlling generally give them a capacity limit and a max aero surface area
and let the teams get on with it .
 
Dotini
I'm in favor.

I'm also in favor of investigating the hybrid electric supercharger in lieu of the turbocharger. I imagine benefits in heat energy recovery, cost and particularly sound.
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Well that wouldn't make sense, if you read the proposal for 2021 rules, the MGU-H is on the chopping block. So a more simplified hybrid unit can be done which is the MGU-K, like it was before the binary system we see now.

ZEROTHEKNIGHT
I don't know about Cosworths - but i thought they'll bring V10 back.
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Why would they do that, the FIA hasn't talks about bringing V10s back and Cosworth have made various F1 engines over the years. Winning with I4s, V8s, V10, and racing V6 turbos.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
Well that wouldn't make sense, if you read the proposal for 2021 rules, the MGU-H is on the chopping block. So a more simplified hybrid unit can be done which is the MGU-K, like it was before the binary system we see now.



Why would they do that, the FIA hasn't talks about bringing V10s back and Cosworth have made various F1 engines over the years. Winning with I4s, V8s, V10, and racing V6 turbos.
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I don't have a source for the FIA to know their next engines.
Cosworth aside - i thought the FIA would allow V10 again but looks like the dream is almost completely dead.
 
Shame, the MGU-H systems are the most interesting part of the current "powertrains", since it is effectively indirect turbo-compounding. I expect a bit of leeway on the packaging / configuration constraints would massively improve reliability - for example the requirement for a single shaft in the turbocompressor, or the requirement for a single turbine (!!).

Of course, lower entry costs and more manufacturers make things more interesting, but you can do that without getting rid of MGU-H.
 
ZEROTHEKNIGHT
I don't have a source for the FIA to know their next engines.
Cosworth aside - i thought the FIA would allow V10 again but looks like the dream is almost completely dead.
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There are plenty of sources, google 2021 F1 engine regs and/or draft of F1 engine regs. The current ideal condition is to make the V6 a twin turbo with a single hybrid unit rather than both KERS and ERS.

You still didn't answer the question as to why, the FIA would allow V10s back?

Griffith500
Shame, the MGU-H systems are the most interesting part of the current "powertrains", since it is effectively indirect turbo-compounding. I expect a bit of leeway on the packaging / configuration constraints would massively improve reliability - for example the requirement for a single shaft in the turbocompressor, or the requirement for a single turbine (!!).

Of course, lower entry costs and more manufacturers make things more interesting, but you can do that without getting rid of MGU-H.
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Well it might get difficult considering that it would no longer be a single turbo formula, but a twin turbo formula, and perhaps allow teams and manufactures to get far more experimental. Which is probably something the more smaller manufactures fear, considering how much current engines cost. I found the ERS system more interesting than the old Fly wheel energy harvest myself as well, and really don't like technology being abandoned that works, because other fans don't understand or like them.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
There are plenty of sources, google 2021 F1 engine regs and/or draft of F1 engine regs. The current ideal condition is to make the V6 a twin turbo with a single hybrid unit rather than both KERS and ERS.

You still didn't answer the question as to why, the FIA would allow V10s back?



Well it might get difficult considering that it would no longer be a single turbo formula, but a twin turbo formula, and perhaps allow teams and manufactures to get far more experimental. Which is probably something the more smaller manufactures fear, considering how much current engines cost. I found the ERS system more interesting than the old Fly wheel energy harvest myself as well, and really don't like technology being abandoned that works, because other fans don't understand or like them.
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I thought the question was placed as ... you know - the kind which is automatically answered by the questioner ( <<< maybe i worded it wrong )
Anyway - my answer is one word :
Sound :rolleyes:
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
There are plenty of sources, google 2021 F1 engine regs and/or draft of F1 engine regs. The current ideal condition is to make the V6 a twin turbo with a single hybrid unit rather than both KERS and ERS.

You still didn't answer the question as to why, the FIA would allow V10s back?

Well it might get difficult considering that it would no longer be a single turbo formula, but a twin turbo formula, and perhaps allow teams and manufactures to get far more experimental. Which is probably something the more smaller manufactures fear, considering how much current engines cost. I found the ERS system more interesting than the old Fly wheel energy harvest myself as well, and really don't like technology being abandoned that works, because other fans don't understand or like them.
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You could keep the single large turbo-compressor and run a second turbine for harvesting, but it's not clear how you'd get the anti-lag benefits that way ("torque-fill" from the traction motor instead?). Boost control would be more conventional, via a wastegate on the turbo-compressor unit - that decoupling of electrical harvesting and the driver's power demand might help reduce developmental complexity.

The same would be true of a twin-turbo setup, with or without with an additional generator turbine in the merged exhausts. I think the material costs of two conventional turbochargers would not be an issue over the existing MGU-H unit, and the bespoke generator turbine would be less fragile, if potentially less efficient (exhaust temperature). Despite the lower efficiency, it could be running in harvest more of the time, collecting more energy to use around a lap.

With the twin setup, there is the potential for a slightly rougher, more interesting sound, but it still depends more on the design of each manifold than how the branches merge, principally because of the uneven firing nature of the engines (although, without a merge, you're left with a much lower perceived pitch, like the old turbo-era cars).
 
Griffith500
You could keep the single large turbo-compressor and run a second turbine for harvesting, but it's not clear how you'd get the anti-lag benefits that way ("torque-fill" from the traction motor instead?). Boost control would be more conventional, via a wastegate on the turbo-compressor unit - that decoupling of electrical harvesting and the driver's power demand might help reduce developmental complexity.

The same would be true of a twin-turbo setup, with or without with an additional generator turbine in the merged exhausts. I think the material costs of two conventional turbochargers would not be an issue over the existing MGU-H unit, and the bespoke generator turbine would be less fragile, if potentially less efficient (exhaust temperature). Despite the lower efficiency, it could be running in harvest more of the time, collecting more energy to use around a lap.

With the twin setup, there is the potential for a slightly rougher, more interesting sound, but it still depends more on the design of each manifold than how the branches merge, principally because of the uneven firing nature of the engines (although, without a merge, you're left with a much lower perceived pitch, like the old turbo-era cars).
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While I agree with you, the problem teams face is cost. With KERS alone you avoid that massive cost hike but sacrifice all the possibilities you hinted at that essentially are f1.

I am curious though if the twin turbo setup will have a specified method or just be left up to teams like the current rules.
 
LMSCorvetteGT2
While I agree with you, the problem teams face is cost. With KERS alone you avoid that massive cost hike but sacrifice all the possibilities you hinted at that essentially are f1.

I am curious though if the twin turbo setup will have a specified method or just be left up to teams like the current rules.
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Indeed. My hope is that by reducing the complexity of the interactions between system components (and the driver), you can drastically reduce developmental costs, which surely is a large component of the total cost of these "powertrains" as-is. On top of that, selecting configurations that are less extreme in their demands on materials will also help on the cost front.


I think their focus on the MGU-H systems as they currently are was in the hope that development would prove useful in more commercial applications. I'd say it's looking more likely that a decoupled solution (a generator on a turbine, a separate motor on a physically separate compressor wheel, or a conventional turbocompressor) will be the favoured choice in the longer term, especially in hybrid applications.

The reduction in efficiency caused by converting mechanical energy to electrical and back again should be outweighed by the ability to match the turbine to the exhaust without worrying about the compressor side (overspeed, overboost), meaning more energy can be extracted from the exhaust more of the time - increasing the overall efficiency by collecting more of the otherwise unused energy in the fuel. A second, decoupled exhaust turbine was in the original plans, intended to be introduced at a later date for this very purpose.


Unfortunately, I don't think a purely decoupled electric turbo-compressor will be responsive enough on the compressor side for F1 - unless they go to small twins and allow the traction motor (MGU-K) to be mapped in permanently, like with the current crop of "hyper-cars", instead of only "deployed strategically". Running a conventional turbo with an additional decoupled generator turbine might be the better option.

Either way, leaning on the improved collection of thermal energy from the exhaust (the main energy loss) to top up the batteries can relax the collection of kinetic energy off the rear axle (for a given energy target per lap / distance) and ameliorate some of the spikier handling issues, especially when the electronic control systems get all wonky. This in turn makes said control systems require less development, and so hopefully cost less.
 

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