3D PS3 Titles Will Suffer Visual Downgrade, GT5 a Casualty?

[Devedander]

• Two Identical 24" 1080p monitors
• Both set to identical colour temp, contrast & brightness levels.
• PS3 Video settings on each console set identical
• Identical HDMI cables
• ONLY hardware changes made was for 1080p 1080i & 720p
• Each image was captured and only trimmed
• Picasa was used to auto adjust colour & contrast
• Both images then placed top/bottom as single image saved and uploaded

First off the only way to do comparisons with a camera is to lock all settings in full manual mode as exposure compensation can change a pictures look.

Also a camera taking pictures of a display will soften and blend the pixels making fine detail detection pretty much impossible not to mention jpg compression artifacts blending pixels.

Then your images are far too small to compare, they would have to be at LEAST 1080 lines tall to even give it a chance and then considering it's a photo of a display it would take way more to realisticly be meaningful and never really be accurate.

And you use picasa to adjust them which will alter color saturation which is one of the most important factors in getting a good picture and could easily skew the overall appearance of an image.

Basically those shots are useless in making the call you are asking for.

Then you get the true issue of 1080i which comes from your de interlacer. Theoreteically a 1080p/30 source can be interlaced to 1080i/60 and then back to 1080p/30 perfectly with no loss of information (since 1080i 60 times per second is exactly the same number of pixels as 1080p 30 times per second). So if your deinterlacer is up to it, you should be getting an identical final result. However if your deinterlacer is not, you open yourself up to all kinds of issues with 1080i.

Note 1080p/60 would have to be deinterlaced to 1080i/120 to maintain all info and I am not sure if that's possible in the given circumstances so a 1080p/60 signal cannot be interlaced to 1080i without losing information.

 

[Lion-Face]

@Devedander

Pretty much took the words out of my mouth.

Here is my take on it. This is what I did.

Camera - Sony DSCW300 Manual mode. No settings were altered between pics. Was set to 2megapixel widescreen shots, basically 1920x1080 resolution at 3x optical zoom.

TV - Sony BRAVIA KLV46V300A (KDL46V3000 in other parts of the world) calibrated as per this thread - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=118469 - (just have to plug my thread when I get a chance ) with brightness turned down 10notches and backlight turned right down, my camera doesn't handle the TV too much brighter, so the only reason I turned the brightness down was to take these pics.

Resolution - The camera resolution was set to 1920x1080, 2megapixels. The camera's full resolution is 13.1 megapixel.
The TV resolution is 1366x768.
The PS3 was set to 720p and 1080p resolutions only.

Between each shot I quit the game, set it to the resolution and loaded it back up. All shots were taken with the Nissan R35 GT-R, cockpit view, Daytona Oval in Arcade mode, Time Trial. As soon as the Time Trial started, I held full brakes+accel and didn't touch any other buttons on the controller to try and get as close to the same position on the track as possible.

Took the shots, uploaded them here. No processing has been done between the shot and being loaded up here.

Only issue with these shots is my manual mode had 'increased noise reduction' set on from last time I used the camera, and I didn't check this before I started taking the photos. All photos have the same setting, but I don't know how much variation between shots that this setting may or may not have. So take that how you will. I will need to do this again and have more time to do so to get better shots, but I think these have a better representation of the difference between 720p and 1080p.

EDIT - Playing with picture size, apologies in advance if its a bit large. I'm trying to preserve picture quality for this comparison.

 

[Mr Latte]

.......

I used the hardware and camera available to me.
Im not a photographer but did my best to produce the best from what I had.
They are certainly more accurate than the photos previously shown and at least on the same hardware taken all the same way.
Sheer accuracy was never going to be possible but consistancy isnt bad on this effort.

Regards colour accuracy the camera I have is not always accurate anyways.
It's NOT ideal or conclusive in anyway and it was never going to be. Besides various displays will have better/worse and bigger/smaller differences in how they handle various resolutions and the ability of their de-interlacing. I did say however I would do a photo comparison and so I have.

At the time of even taking the photos their was very little difference on these 24" 1080p monitors when the game was running side by side. 2 Other people were asked to point out areas of differences and they were wrong more times than right to guessing the resolutions. If readers here dont believe that they can do tests of their own. I think the photos reflect that it would be hard to determine anything on this test and these 24" monitors. The difference was mostly added sharpness or fine detail but minimal improvement with jaggies.

If you or any others want to take you own photos (like above) by all means go ahead your welcome to do so.
The more the better really....

My own view on the matter is while 1080p mode can offer a better image, the benifits of it are in some cases quite small and perhaps these 1280x1080 games get overrated a bit with their 1080p branding and marketing. I still say if the games used 1920x1080 then the visual improvements in the game would be much greater but they fall quite short of that. People that upgrade or compare a new better spec 1080p TV to an older 720p model will get probably more differences in the capabilities of the TVs than from the actual increased resolution.

EDIT: Bold used to highlight important factors... Also Live game playing test was done with 2 other people during the comparison.
Test was still inconclusive in correctly guessing the resolutions.

 

[TokyoDrift]

• Two Identical 24" 1080p monitors
• Both set to identical colour temp, contrast & brightness levels.
• PS3 Video settings on each console set identical
• Identical HDMI cables
• ONLY hardware changes made was for 1080p 1080i & 720p
• Each image was captured and only trimmed
• Picasa was used to auto adjust colour & contrast
• Both images then placed top/bottom as single image saved and uploaded

I can't believe this debate is still going on...

So, let me get this right - you went to all that trouble, despite identical monitors not really being identical, and then took PHOTOGRAPHS of each one?!

1. You cannot guarantee the camera capture being equivalent each time, and by using a camera, you soften the image straight away and introduce lens distortion.
2. You saved the images as JPEG, introducing all manner of compression artefacts on top of that.
3. You then save both 720p and 1080p photos to 1024 x 871, a resolution LESS than even 720p, let alone 1080p. So, on top of the softer image, lens distortion and JPEG compression, you effectively introduce anti-aliasing into the equation by shrinking them down.

The net result is a pointless comparison, because any finer detail in the 1080p image is completely lost.

To get a definitive comparison, you (not you per se, anybody) should capture the frames direct from source, and upscale both images to 1920 x 1080, saved with as little compression as possible.

Something else people seem to be forgetting is that when differences are admittedly small, one static frame may not show the benefits as well as the eye perceives them in motion.

Anyway, a friend has borrowed Prologue, and I only have a crappy camera phone with me right now, but what I have just done is loaded up GTHD on my 46" BRAVIA, first with the PS3 set to 720p, and again with the PS3 set to 1080p. Now, withut wanting to go into "how much better" arguments, the 1080p image was definitely sharper with more refined detall. However, I will say this - there are clearly parts of the game that are jaggy no matter what resolution the game is run in (shadows for example), but everything from the dash overlay (bumper cam), to the rendering of the car was sharper with a bit less shimmer.

This is fact, something that I can clearly see with my own two eyes, and does not need photographic images to back up. Yes, the difference is small and not consistent throughout the game, but it's there. Now, if you want to choose 720p mode with 2xAA or 1080p mode with 4xAA, that's entirely up to the individual playing the game and what looks best on their equipment woth their own eyes.

 

[Devedander]

Lion Face isn't your TV less than 1080p so all other points aside not displaying 1080p anyway?

 

[eSZee]

@Devedander

Pretty much took the words out of my mouth.

Here is my take on it. This is what I did.

Camera - Sony DSCW300 Manual mode. No settings were altered between pics. Was set to 2megapixel widescreen shots, basically 1920x1080 resolution at 3x optical zoom.

TV - Sony BRAVIA KLV46V300A (KDL46V3000 in other parts of the world) calibrated as per this thread - https://www.gtplanet.net/forum/showthread.php?t=118469 - (just have to plug my thread when I get a chance ) with brightness turned down 10notches and backlight turned right down, my camera doesn't handle the TV too much brighter, so the only reason I turned the brightness down was to take these pics.

Resolution - The camera resolution was set to 1920x1080, 2megapixels. The camera's full resolution is 13.1 megapixel.
The TV resolution is 1366x768.
The PS3 was set to 720p and 1080p resolutions only.

Between each shot I quit the game, set it to the resolution and loaded it back up. All shots were taken with the Nissan R35 GT-R, cockpit view, Daytona Oval in Arcade mode, Time Trial. As soon as the Time Trial started, I held full brakes+accel and didn't touch any other buttons on the controller to try and get as close to the same position on the track as possible.

Took the shots, uploaded them here. No processing has been done between the shot and being loaded up here.

Only issue with these shots is my manual mode had 'increased noise reduction' set on from last time I used the camera, and I didn't check this before I started taking the photos. All photos have the same setting, but I don't know how much variation between shots that this setting may or may not have. So take that how you will. I will need to do this again and have more time to do so to get better shots, but I think these have a better representation of the difference between 720p and 1080p.

Umm, how can a 720p TV with a 1366x768 resolution display 1080p?
Also, 2mp camera pictures are poor quality. I would assume you should've used 13mp to show full detail of the screens.

 

[Zer0]

Umm, how can a 720p TV with a 1366x768 resolution display 1080p?
Also, 2mp camera pictures are poor quality. I would assume you should've used 13mp to show full detail of the screens.

A lot of 720p tvs can handle a 1080p mode, the native frame is downscaled to 720p.

A cropped 2mp photo is enought to see some things:

 

[eSZee]

A lot of 720p tvs can handle a 1080p mode, the native frame is downscaled to 720p.

A cropped 2mp photo is enought to see some things:

If 1080p is downscaled to 720p, it's not 1080p. So you just compared 720p vs 720p. The downscaling will still depend on the TV itself, which your gif proves.

 

[Lion-Face]

So 720p upscaled to 1080p = 1080p then?

It doesn't matter, the problem is people are fixated on resolution where it matters little in the scheme of things. I can take the same photos on a 1920x1080 TV and produce the exact same results. The TV resolution matters little. The native resolution of the game has more of an effect on the picture than the TV resolution, but even then its slight. You can see the difference that the resolutions offer in my pics, that was what I was out to prove, in GT5Prologue, there is a difference between the two resolutions and that 1080p is the better of the two, regardless of HDTV resolution.

 

[eSZee]

So 720p upscaled to 1080p = 1080p then?

lol
In your pictures, 1080p certainly doesn't look better. Less detail, blurred edges.

 

[Zer0]

If 1080p is downscaled to 720p, it's not 1080p. So you just compared 720p vs 720p. The downscaling will still depend on the TV itself, which your gif proves.

720p native vs 720p downscaled from 1080p, a big difference. About the tv downscaling(or deinterlacing, or hardware enhacements) that is the reason because every setup will display the game in its own form, contrary to pc games played on monitors.

lol
In your pictures, 1080p certainly doesn't look better. Less detail, blurred edges.

A downscaled image makes things more antialiased but more detailed and defined.

Notice the door gap line:

The more defined dial numbers:

The more detailed fences:

*First images 1080p downscaled, second 720p native.

 

[Mr Latte]

lol
In your pictures, 1080p certainly doesn't look better. Less detail, blurred edges.

Yeah thats the effect of the scaling really and in general for many a disadvantage to image quailty but an advantage to reducing jaggies...
For image quality Id say avoid scaling altogether so if you have a 720p native display run with a 720p output. If a 1080p display run with 1080p output. Using 1080 scaling on a 720p display will often have a slight improvement in the jaggies but at the cost of a less sharper image. This is not always the case though...


Now having people criticising my effort and talking big things about using professional cameras and modes to provide a proper test.
Yet we have here a test that isnt even capable of showing 1080p native, come on, pot calling the kettle black or what. I may not of been able to produce in photos fully credible evidence of my own test and it wasnt meant to be but that doesnt mean the test wasnt done with a degree or effort.

At least I experienced first hand having in front of me running in realtime not just based on photographs taken between modes.
Comparisons were in realtime using 3 different relolutions of the game. Has anyone else here done this 1:1 using other people to help verify? When they do they can challenge my opinion if they think its biased or an untrue account. I dont appreciate people trying to discredit the work I did by going on about camera technicalities and then falling foul to similar limations in the photo evidence they provide.

3x identical 1080p native monitors / 3x identical settings on each display / 3x PS3 running at 1080i / 1080p / 720p
Each closely compared in realtime and with two other people used to compare or verify differences.
Sorry this has been a "waste of time comparison" as some of you commented.

1,2,3 proof tests were carried out on 3 consoles.

Once you realise what changes in the display each mode produces then it becomes easier to determine which is which.
I found on this test on this hardware the changes are more to do with actual image sharpness and colour differences in the different modes. Doing this test proved to me again that GT5p does not have major benifits in its 1080p 1280x1080 mode. The biggest factor is a moderate increase in sharpness. If myself with 2 others couldnt correctly determine which was which thats conclusive enough for me that the improvement is minimal. Indeed 24" screens arnt big and may make noticing differences harder but then you could factor in viewing distance to a bigger display to counter this.

Is 1080p really a major benifit for GT5?
My opinion is not really, but with some benifit however its more to do with Sonys marketing.

3DTV on the other hand is different as it can offer a whole new experience and I look forward to trying the game in that mode to discover if it enhances the game or is just like 1080p limited in its benefit and more marketing hype than anything else.

 

[evilfoxhound]

It depends 100% on the TV/monitor used.

I have a native 720p 42" LG TV. It can accept and downscale 1080p.

I can tell you that with this TV, GT5P looks MUCH, MUCH sharper and detailed in downsized 1080p than it's native 720p.

I guess LG just are just very good at scaling.

 

[Zer0]

For image quality Id say avoid scaling altogether so if you have a 720p native display run with a 720p output. If a 1080p display run with 1080p output. Using 1080 scaling on a 720p display will often have a slight improvement in the jaggies but at the cost of a less sharper image. This is not always the case though...

Have you ever experienced GT5P in a setup like that? the image is similar to supersampling antialiasing not a blur layer over the image. In a big screen the game look almost flawless.

I don't see a 720p advantage over 1080p in those setups(maybe a slighty less input lag?) also if you want you can always adjust the image sharpness in your tv but not increase the detail or antialias.

 

[Mr Latte]

Have you ever experienced GT5P in a setup like that? the image is similar to supersampling antialiasing not a blur layer over the image. In a big screen the game look almost flawless.

I don't see a 720p advantage over 1080p in those setups(maybe a slighty less input lag?) also if you want you can always adjust the image sharpness in your tv but not increase the detail or antialias.

Different displays are going to differ in how they use scaling.
Some like the person above reckon they get the best image using downscaling. That doesnt mean however a user couldnt tweak their preset controls to make their 720p input more vibrant/sharper etc to maybe match how the 1080p image appears.

I guess on some displays they can enchance the video output to make it stand out more with a 1080p source. A 720p display cant show more detail than its native resolution but indeed its not impossible for TV manufacturers to make sure a 1080p input produces the best looking image on the display.

Lets wait and see how this 3D mode compares graphically to the 2D version...
It could suffer in texture resolution or drop some graphical effects and may have its own disadvantages at the expense of 3D.

Will 3D also work with head tracking?
Will headtracking work in triple screens?
Are triple screens really going to be fully supported in online and races?
Perhaps 2D 1080 will offer the best appearance from the game

 

[Lion-Face]

My softer picture could be due to both my TV settings, which runs 0 sharpness, and jpeg compression. It doesn't look that bad on my TV, the difference between 720p and 1080p is greater than my pictures represent. My pictures were there to provide evidence that there is a difference between 720p and 1080p, even if its 'only' on a 720p TV, and I think for the pictures produced, they do that argument justice.

I still can't believe people are getting hung up on TV resolution. A 'FullHD' set would provide the same results.

I dont appreciate people trying to discredit the work I did by going on about camera technicalities and then falling foul to similar limations in the photo evidence they provide.

I used the same Camera, same settings and on manual mode, same distance, same car positioning, same TV, same picture settings and didn't touch the pictures from the camera to the upload. If you change any of those settings, you are altering the outcome of the comparison.

The biggest and easiest thing to note between 720p and 1080p modes is the rev counter on the in-car or behind car views. The rev counter is made up of a series of bars. In 720p, a lot of the bars mash together and don't appear to be separate, while in 1080p mode, the bars are all separate and theres no mashing together of the bars. In your pics you provided, its very hard to tell that the rev counter is made up of bars or not. Look at the close up shots of mine in the bottom right corner to see what I mean.

I'm sorry to argue this point, I didn't want to turn this into an argument over who's photos are better etc as this isn't what the argument is about. But I do believe you deserve a better explanation as to why I questioned your method and results. I have provided my explanation as to why I don't think your pics are reasonable and fair for this comparison. I don't doubt you did it with 3 monitors and other people there for an unbiased opinion, thats all fine an good, but the more variables you add into a comparison, the less fair it becomes and the murkier the outcome is.

 

[boy123]

Thank you for your contribution! I like it and I think you make a good point.
Thank you for taking the time to share this with us

 

[toMsonsLLC]

3D blows and should stay out of games. It's a fad, and not needed. Just useless delays with that garbage!

 

[TheROADKRAKEN]

PS3s outputting 240hz are interpolating half the frames, which appear softer because of this.

 

[terminator363]

Yup, 3d is the new Virtual Boy, a month after release there will be recalls and suits for Seizures and Eye problems.

let's hope so, I hate the 3D tvs.

 

[BitCypher]

yeah i went from a gaming PC to ps3... you can't downgrade me much more...

1080p +8x AA + 16x AF @60-120fps

I'm coping fine it doesn't bother me that much until you get the wise ass idiot
that says "ps3 has better graphics than a pc"

 

[White & Nerdy]

GT5 visual downgrade has been debunked right?

Sorry but I don't feel like reading through this right now.