$50K Question: Uber-Sedans and Super-Coupes

[IMADreamer]

Uh...14 seconds is fast for a Civic. Unless you're implying that the kid has modified it, which is relatively unlikely these days.

Well, the BMW M3 CSL is shod in some pretty modern rubber (track rubber, actually), and it's pretty close to the Charger's power-to-weight, only having to carry about a third of a pound less per horsepower.

Basically, it's got great tires and has a bit of a power-to-weight advantage. The CSL sprints to 60mph in a bit less than 5 seconds, and reaches the quarter mile in the low 13's. With modern rubber, but the same noodle chassis and parasitic drivetrain losses from the whole designed-in-1969 thing, I'd expect the Charger to do 60mph in about 5 seconds or so, and the quarter in the high 13's, at best.

That's not slow by any means, but the tires aren't going to drop an entire second from the quartermile time.

Actually you would be suprised at how much the difference is. I will try and dig up an article I have about some testing some magizine (R and T I think) did with the old two ply tires, 1970s drag tires, modern street tires, and modern drag tires on an old Hemi Cuda. The differences between the old and new were unbelievable. Basically the modern street tires were capable of the same times as the old drag radials. I think it was well over a second off the original quartermile time the magizine posted back in the 70s.

Ok, I have gotten this thing way off topic. Sorry. If I can hunt down the article I will make a thread about it. It's a really great read.

 

[YSSMAN]

...Yes tires do make the difference, I would agree to that. A good example would be to look at ALMS competion betweent he C6-R and the DBR9...

But, alas, the full-spec CSL was never offered in the US... Yes, we did get the Competition Package which from what I understand from ///M-Spec is essentially the same thing, it really isn't... I lacks the carbon roof, and the special tires...

Big difference? Not much, but it still isnt a CSL...

 

[Wolfe]

Actually you would be suprised at how much the difference is. I will try and dig up an article I have about some testing some magizine (R and T I think) did with the old two ply tires, 1970s drag tires, modern street tires, and modern drag tires on an old Hemi Cuda. The differences between the old and new were unbelievable. Basically the modern street tires were capable of the same times as the old drag radials. I think it was well over a second off the original quartermile time the magizine posted back in the 70s.

Ok, I have gotten this thing way off topic. Sorry. If I can hunt down the article I will make a thread about it. It's a really great read.

Well no offense, but maybe your casually-recited "14 seconds" that we're starting from here is wrong, because the '69 440 Charger is not going to be doing much better than that, even on modern tires. I would love to see that article, though.

I have to admit, I was so tempted by the M3, it really confuses me. If you would have talked to me about the 3-series even two years ago, there is a good chance I would have drop-kicked you in the throat for even meantioning the car... But after riding and driving a few 3-series', I have changed my mind substantially.

[short story]There is a dude who has an '05 with the competition package just around the corner from where I work. Every day that I see that car I have a very, very hard time not trying to go steal it. The car is simply perfect to look at. Jet black paint, big competition aluminum wheels, black leather with carbon fibre interior... It makes my pants get all tight and stuff[/short story]

I wouldn't say that I was hesitant to accept them myself, but I've watched many other people fall victim to the "BMW bug." There's just something irresistable about them.

 

[YSSMAN]

...It's that God Damned "feel" of everything that comes out of Germany, man! If GM could figure out what the hell BMW and VAG are going with their cars, I'm sure they could sell a helluva lot more than Toyota or Honda, as all you are "feeling" with their cars are rubber and plastic.

 

[JCE]

But, alas, the full-spec CSL was never offered in the US... Yes, we did get the Competition Package which from what I understand from ///M-Spec is essentially the same thing, it really isn't... I lacks the carbon roof, and the special tires...

Big difference? Not much, but it still isnt a CSL...

Don't forget the carboard floor. If the CSL was offered here I'd sell some secondary organs for one. The noise it makes is so intoxicating. Watch the TopGear where Jeremy tests it...the noise...THE NOISE!

Oh and McLaren...I thought the base 6-series coupe was about $58k. You mean to tell me it's $70k for a BASE 6-series? [just checked out bmwusa.com] HOLY ****! I'd rather save up the extra $10k and buy an M5. Ok, scratch the 6-series of the list and add the Z4 M Coupe', it starts @ $49k.

 

[McLaren]

Don't forget the carboard floor. If the CSL was offered here I'd sell some secondary organs for one. The noise it makes is so intoxicating. Watch the TopGear where Jeremy tests it...the noise...THE NOISE!

Oh and McLaren...I thought the base 6-series coupe was about $58k. You mean to tell me it's $70k for a BASE 6-series? [just checked out bmwusa.com] HOLY ****! I'd rather save up the extra $10k and buy an M5. Ok, scratch the 6-series of the list and add the Z4 M Coupe', it starts @ $49k.

Yeah, the 6 went up about $3-4,000 when it got an extra 50 hp (645-650Ci). Luckily, the M6's $100,000 went down according to BMW USA.

 

[YSSMAN]

...After reading the C/D review of the M6, I'm a tad bit underwhelmed by the car. Yes, it looks nice, and yes it is rather fast... But thats about it. Personally speaking, it is too damn expensive for what ya get, and the lack of a true manual transmission (although they are comming next year) is a real deal-killer.

I dunno. Maybe if I had hundreds of thousands of dollars to throw around, maybe I would think about it. The car would be a nice one to have as an every-day car, and when youre feeling frisky, press a button and head to the local race track.

 

[McLaren]

...After reading the C/D review of the M6, I'm a tad bit underwhelmed by the car. Yes, it looks nice, and yes it is rather fast... But thats about it. Personally speaking, it is too damn expensive for what ya get, and the lack of a true manual transmission (although they are comming next year) is a real deal-killer.

I dunno. Maybe if I had hundreds of thousands of dollars to throw around, maybe I would think about it. The car would be a nice one to have as an every-day car, and when youre feeling frisky, press a button and head to the local race track.

Are you kidding? I think that's a d*mn fine deal. Roundel already showed it can keep up with the Maranellos, and a little faster than the Gallardo, DB9, and Vanquish S.

Besides, it's worth every penny next to that overpriced XLR-V.

 

[JCE]

Are you kidding? I think that's a d*mn fine deal. Roundel already showed it can keep up with the Maranellos, and a little faster than the Gallardo, DB9, and Vanquish S.

Besides, it's worth every penny next to that overpriced XLR-V.

Agreed on the XLR-V. If I had $100k to throw around it would probably be spent on the M6, M5, or A8 L W12 for an extra $12k. 👍 I think the M6 is worth $100k. But conversely the base 6-series is NOT worth $70k.

 

[YSSMAN]

I look at it this way; For the price of one M6, I can buy two M3s, have twice as much fun, and quite frankly, have a much more intimiate expirience with my ride.

...As noted by myself several times, I'm not too happy with the way everything is computer-controled these days in so many cars. Sure, I find it acceptable in a full-size luxury sedan such as the S550 or 760iL, but generally speaking, it should NOT be in a sport sedan or coupe.

I was thinking about the $100K pricetag earlier today while I was working outside for a few minuites, and I came up with this:

For $100,000 I would probably be more likely to buy a Corvette Z06 and a used 2004 VW Passat W8 4MOTION. That way I've got the best of both worlds, and I've got two cars instead of just one...

 

[JCE]

I look at it this way; For the price of one M6, I can buy two M3s, have twice as much fun, and quite frankly, have a much more intimiate expirience with my ride.

...As noted by myself several times, I'm not too happy with the way everything is computer-controled these days in so many cars. Sure, I find it acceptable in a full-size luxury sedan such as the S550 or 760iL, but generally speaking, it should NOT be in a sport sedan or coupe.

I was thinking about the $100K pricetag earlier today while I was working outside for a few minuites, and I came up with this:

For $100,000 I would probably be more likely to buy a Corvette Z06 and a used 2004 VW Passat W8 4MOTION. That way I've got the best of both worlds, and I've got two cars instead of just one...

That's assuming you have ONLY $100k and no huge bank account. Assuming this, I'd most likely buy an A8 and a used LS2 GTO. 👍
So I see where you are coming from with this. And oddly we have a similar list...VAG+GM.

 

[YSSMAN]

I'm so sad that they killed the Passat W8. What a great car...

 

[opendriver]

CEE TEH ESS VEE ALL TEH WAY!!!!!!11
I love this car. I didnt have to read the rest of the choices in the poll, I just clicked it as soon as I saw it!

Im not sure on the price but id get the mid to higher grade model and then super chage it.

Figures like 500hp and 500+ftlbs of torque will rivial the ford GT and a fraction of the price and you get to have a smother ride!
I cant stand the Ford, they are really cheap(stock is aroun $7) in my opinion;

the "same" engine in 3 different vehicles:
SVT lightning
Ford GT
and now the Mustang GT500
Cutting corners are we?

Although, I might consider getting one of these

Base starts at 54,000lbs

 

[exigeracer]

Figures like 500hp and 500+ftlbs of torque will rivial the ford GT and a fraction of the price and you get to have a smother ride!
I cant stand the Ford, they are really cheap(stock is aroun $7) in my opinion;

There's no way you can compare the Ford GT with the CTS-V. It's not even apples and oranges, it's apples and propellars...

Thinking that the CTS-V is as quick as the GT is absurd.

Base Federal Elise - 42,990$, roughly 44,500$ with transport and Starshield.

Base Federal Exige - 51,990$, roughly 53,500$ with transport and Starshield.

 

[Keef]

I was stuck between the Vette, M3, and S4. The Vette is faster and handles far better than the other two. It also pretty practucal and usuable every day. But the tranny sucks and the steering is gay.
The M3 isn't as fast and doens't handle quite as well, but it is a BMW. That means it's fun as hell to drive, the steering feels good, the shifter goes in every time. Also, the transmission actually requires you shift it, whereas Icould drive the 5 miles to the Dayton Mall in first gear and never have to go into second. I want to shift a lot because I have to, not just to turn the noise down a little.
The S4 is more practical than both because it has four doors, a bigge trunk, and AWD, which means you can drive it all year. But it understeers like cow for that same reason--the heavy AWD--and it has a V8, which doesn't get my heart pumping like the good ol' I6.

I picked the M3.

 

[YSSMAN]

CEE TEH ESS VEE ALL TEH WAY!!!!!!11
I love this car. I didnt have to read the rest of the choices in the poll, I just clicked it as soon as I saw it!

Im not sure on the price but id get the mid to higher grade model and then super chage it.

Figures like 500hp and 500+ftlbs of torque will rivial the ford GT and a fraction of the price and you get to have a smother ride!
I cant stand the Ford, they are really cheap(stock is aroun $7) in my opinion;

the "same" engine in 3 different vehicles:
SVT lightning
Ford GT
and now the Mustang GT500
Cutting corners are we?

Although, I might consider getting one of these

Base starts at 54,000lbs

...I'm happy that you picked the CTS-V, but I need to correct you.

That same engine found in the CTS-V is the same engine that has been used in the Corvette, GTO/Monaro, Commodore siblings, SSR, Trailblazer SS, etc. That same LS2 shares its design with another 6.0L V8 down in Australia, and from what I understand the new 6.2L V8 in the Escalade and Yukon is a modified version of the LS2 as well.

So that means the same engine from GM is used in six different vehicles in the LS2 configuration, it's variants in quite a few different Holdens, and two SUVs... So I suppose that means GM is cutting corners.

I may not care much for Ford, but GM and DCX are just as guilty as they are for using the same technology over, and over again.

 

[IMADreamer]

I look at it this way; For the price of one M6, I can buy two M3s, have twice as much fun, and quite frankly, have a much more intimiate expirience with my ride.

...As noted by myself several times, I'm not too happy with the way everything is computer-controled these days in so many cars. Sure, I find it acceptable in a full-size luxury sedan such as the S550 or 760iL, but generally speaking, it should NOT be in a sport sedan or coupe.

I was thinking about the $100K pricetag earlier today while I was working outside for a few minuites, and I came up with this:

For $100,000 I would probably be more likely to buy a Corvette Z06 and a used 2004 VW Passat W8 4MOTION. That way I've got the best of both worlds, and I've got two cars instead of just one...

100k definately changes things. I think as far as bang for buck you can't beat the Z06 but I have liked Vipers for as long as I can remember so I would probably go with that eventhough I know the Z06 is a superior car.

 

[opendriver]

...I'm happy that you picked the CTS-V, but I need to correct you.

That same engine found in the CTS-V is the same engine that has been used in the Corvette, GTO/Monaro, Commodore siblings, SSR, Trailblazer SS, etc. That same LS2 shares its design with another 6.0L V8 down in Australia, and from what I understand the new 6.2L V8 in the Escalade and Yukon is a modified version of the LS2 as well.

So that means the same engine from GM is used in six different vehicles in the LS2 configuration, it's variants in quite a few different Holdens, and two SUVs... So I suppose that means GM is cutting corners.

I may not care much for Ford, but GM and DCX are just as guilty as they are for using the same technology over, and over again.

Damn
I guess im a little behind arnt I
How long has the 6.2L been out for? pops denali got the 6.0 in it and its an '03
GM is changing quickly...I cant keep up

 

[YSSMAN]

The new "LS9" 6.2L V8 just appeared in the 2007 Cadillac Escalade (400 BHP) and the GMC Yukon Denali (380 BHP). Matched with the new 6L80E automatic, they are pretty quick trucks, and get decent MPG if driven correctly.

The old Vortec 6000 H.O., now refered to as the "Vortec Max" can be found in the truck lineup, and I think it is the base engine in the Yukon.

 

[GT4_Rule]

The Vortex Max produces 345HP; The L92 produces 403HP. Wonder what they did to increase output by almost 60HP.

 

[YSSMAN]

First, I need to correct myself on the new 6.2L V8... It's called the L92, not the LS9! I could have sworn the engine stand at the Chicago Auto Show said LS9, but I suppose that does look a lot like L92. I need to get my eyes checked!

Secondly, the increase in power between the Vortec 6000 "Max" or LQ9 and the L92 is actually because of the leap in technology. Not only did the displacement increase by 200 CCs, but the casting switched to aluminum, compression ratios increased, and Variable Valve Timing has been added as well.

And of course we cannot forget about the new L76 V8...

Technically speaking, the new alloy V8 engine benefits from a range of changes when compared to the Gen III 5.7-litre LS1 engine that has powered the performance Commodore range since the VT Series II in 1998.

These changes include an all-new aluminium cylinder block casting, new flat-top piston designs, increased compression ratio (up from 10.1:1 to 10.4:1), increased capacity, revised high-flow cylinder heads, new inlet and exhaust valves, plus larger, 90mm single-blade throttle bodies, external knock sensors and a more powerful engine control unit (ECU).

...The new engine will be used in every Aussie model that was once equipped with the LS1, and the same engine will see duty in the American Chevrolet Avalanche and Suburban as well (Tahoe may get it too). Word is that the same V8 will be the standard fare in the new RWD Zeta cars (Impala, GTO, Invicta, etc.) in 2008, but nothing is offical there either. Oh, did I mention that the engine produces 355 BHP and 365 lb-ft torque?

 

[GT4_Rule]

That would be a nice thing for GM to do. So if they can fit it in such models like Impala, GTO, etc, then its manufacturing cost is pretty low, isn't it? Because I was about to suggest doubling the production of the LS6, detune it a bit, and then put it into the Zeta cars. Like Chevrolet did with Caprice, with its detuned C4 Corvette engine.

 

[JCE]

LS9

Mmmmm an LS9--9.0l of V8 goodness brought to you by GM (in a few years). That'd be one hell of an engine...9.0l V8. I don't care if it is a waste of displacement...can you imagine the NOISE it will make?

 

[Wolfe]

Mmmmm an LS9--9.0l of V8 goodness brought to you by GM (in a few years). That'd be one hell of an engine...9.0l V8. I don't care if it is a waste of displacement...can you imagine the NOISE it will make?

Sorry JCE3000GT, that's not how it works...

The LS9 is a 6.2L.

 

[YSSMAN]

Mmmmm an LS9--9.0l of V8 goodness brought to you by GM (in a few years). That'd be one hell of an engine...9.0l V8. I don't care if it is a waste of displacement...can you imagine the NOISE it will make?

...They allready offer an 8.1L Big-Block in the Silverado and Avalanche, and it does sound pretty good, but the engine is allready being outdone by the smaller 6.0L-ish units that are seeing duty in the new SUVs, and presumably the next-gen trucks that will be comming next year.

 

[JCE]

Sorry JCE3000GT, that's not how it works...

The LS9 is a 6.2L.

I know, I was being sarcastic. 👍 Maybe I used the wrong smilee. Perhaps i should just do a [/lame joke] tag next time eh?

 

[YSSMAN]

...Depending on how much this will cost after the removal of two doors...

This might become my ride of choise (VE/Zeta Commodore, GTO, etc.)

 

[rovens]

Well im going to have to vote other i'd take either an elise or the new 'non S' Cayman that is coming out, i think that should be under $50k.

Off the list though i would take the M3, shame its not £50k then i could have an RS4.

 

[///M-Spec]

But, alas, the full-spec CSL was never offered in the US... Yes, we did get the Competition Package which from what I understand from ///M-Spec is essentially the same thing, it really isn't... I lacks the carbon roof, and the special tires...

Big difference? Not much, but it still isnt a CSL...

I did??

If I remember right, we were talking about the UK marketing special M3 CS (aka M3 Club Sport). Not M3 CSL.

M3 CS (UK marketing name) = M3 Competition Package (US marketing name)

M3 CSL = Nothing else. The CS/ZCP doesn't come close to a CSL. The suspension peices are different. Geometry is different. The body shell is different --most exterior panels are different. The CSL airbox is unique and the motor makes more power. Even the wheels --which may LOOK the same on both cars are different--the CSL's are forged. The CS/ZCP are cast.


M

 

[Rogue Ssv]

YSS, is that an Impala or a Saab> Do you know?
GT4Rule, I take it you finished your exams?