750PP, TCS, and you!

[hornet_burnout]

Ahhh, the old "Speed Vs. Handing" debate, it will forever remain in motorsports as the question everyone knows, and at the same time doesn't know the answer to

Yup, and I love it :-)

30 MPH (I have no idea what that is in KM's)

About 50K. Just add 50% (it's x1.6)

RWD's shouldn't be competing with anything but RWD's, and the same should be said for AWD's and FWD's.

Again yes, I agree. But still, I love kikin' AWD but with a RWD :-)

I believe cornering is a priority, and I believe that AWD cars have the clear advantage in that department.

This I don't, at lest not completely. Only happens if you can't put the power down on a RWD and/or don't have well setup. If traction is not a problem, a RWD "rounds" the corner nicely, while a FWD or AWD tends to understeer. If power is too much a RWD is in trouble, oversteering.

Oh and if you take the same car, RWD vs AWD you can confirm this. A medium powered AWD loses (added weight, and slightly lower top speed come into play as well) when power is easy to put down on tarmack. But on ice or dirt, it will blow the RWD away...

What Michael is saying there at 3:25, is that he typically can out brake other drivers. He can brake later, while still hitting the apex. And thus the old saying: Brake to go faster. Words to live by.

Ok then, nothing to do with speed it self but slowing down later.

However according to Nurburgring lap times the GT-R is one of the fastest production cars in the world, so I have no problem with it's rediculous speed in the game.

The AWD Lancer Evolution X can handle better through the corners but it's engine isn't very good so most RWD cars can make the time up they lost in the corners on the straight.

I haven't driven or raced against many skylines so no comment on them.

I haven't studied it hard enough yet, but I think I read the GT-R transmission starts as a RWD, and uses FWD only when it needs to put the power down. It actually has a almost traditional RWD transmission, and then a secondary one brings traction back to the front again. That is called a transaxle, and the dual clutch lives inthe rear as well to optimize eight distribution. That and the most advanced difs and electronics make it almost a RWD/AWD as needed, and that makes it the fastest in the Nurburgring.

The 2 liter engines on Imprezas or Evos (WRC street versions are limited in this way) have no grunt to take on most 2.5 or more RWD cars, although max power output can be the same.

The skyline was a piece of crap (on GT4) as a AWD. I had the most awkward settings on it just to make it drift on all 4, as it kept understeering under power. That is why I haven't even tried it on GT5P, and why I don't like AWD's on tarmac.

 

[MrDuck1234]

This is another reason why I don't believe in mixing drivetrains for competition. Now, you can say what you want to, but a car such as the GT-R will out perfrom a Corvette any day of the week..

lol, this should have its own thread.

Well lots of factors are there other than what drivetrain you are using. What about mid engine cars, and like a porsche vs ferrari. (i hope porsche does get added) weight transfer has to play a big deal i would imagine. The gt-r has a very smooth body role. The vett i feel is not as tight. So it would lose a little more time. But than again, theres GM trying to shut down nisan on the RINg

 

[VanHelzer]

I raced against Sphinx yesterday and his EVO X was down to 717 pp(in the 750 pp class) and he drove the wheels off that car!--I personally think the designers are biased in making the EVO race more like a slot car. It is extremely easy to drive almost too easy. And I know there's a thread on the GT40, but I don't even know why they bothered putting that car in the line up. It's rediculous trying to get that car around Suzuka, it downright makes me angry that such a good looking/good sounding car can be barely driven at all. BTW--cudos to EARTH driving that concept like he does---Jedi skills that one. OH ya...Bring back the limited slip diff.!

 

[MrDuck1234]

I raced against Sphinx yesterday and his EVO X was down to 717 pp(in the 750 pp class) and he drove the wheels off that car!--I personally think the designers are biased in making the EVO race more like a slot car. It is extremely easy to drive almost too easy. And I know there's a thread on the GT40, but I don't even know why they bothered putting that car in the line up. It's rediculous trying to get that car around Suzuka, it downright makes me angry that such a good looking/good sounding car can be barely driven at all. BTW--cudos to EARTH driving that concept like he does---Jedi skills that one. OH ya...Bring back the limited slip diff.!

are you using a wheel or a pad. I think it makes a big differnce. Overstear is alot more easy to controle with the wheel. Also you can use it for your advantage. With the 111r or the s2k. I use the overstear on the first turn of suzuka to set me self up for the S's. It proly dosnt make sence. but, with the wheel. It does. IMO

 

[ofspunk7]

There are mid engine rear wheel drive cars that have similar coner and acceleration to AWD. yes AWD gets the most grip but lacks the turn radius. Therefore you can't always make a solid turn (depends on the driver) So i think there are advantages to both. I like racing both on the tracks because it gives me a challenge. If it was AWD only i would be racing only GTR and EVO X. Give me the challenge it only makes me a better driver!

 

[Threshold]

this is motorsports, you use whatever advantage you can get.

 

[Chadwicksracing]

umm no!....races are won on the straights. Its how you exit the turn. Why do you think nailing the Apex a big key in winning. People spend alot of time studying turns just so they get out of it faster. I dont know if you realized but the start/finnish is just one big straight...HP is a big deal. and than after HP its aerodynamics. Get your stuff right.

I always thought that the exit of the turn was still in the turn? So if you can't carry any speed off the exit, then you HP will get to your top speed? What about if you can carry twice the speed on the exit and then get to your top speed faster? Doesn't that make sense?



That also applies to any track and its turns. Just the zones will be in different areas. I think if you can go fast in the corner you can win a race. I rarely tune for power, simply because if the car can't handle the extra speed in the corner, then ways the point of having it? I think you need to get your stuff right, as it seems you have been lecured quite a bit already.

What Michael is saying there at 3:25, is that he typically can out brake other drivers. He can brake later, while still hitting the apex. And thus the old saying: Brake to go faster. Words to live by.

Lol Just read my signature!

 

[Delphic Reason]

The Ford GT LM Test car handles like it is driving on air at 750pp. The car's weight is almost all the way down to Le Mans limits at 960kgs, yet the wings only give you a fraction of a Le Mans cars downforce. Overall the driving feels unnatural with the light weight. The Original test car weighs 1300+kgs, and at 700pp I had it down to 1150kgs, but at 960 kgs the car loses all its feeling.

The car also has an extra 70 horsepower now, but that really isn't the problem for me in low speed corners, it's the car rotating too easily at the low weight which makes steering control very difficult

I could see you struggling with the GT. I was in a Mines R34 GTR. First time driving it, and first time entering a 750pp race. I was able to come out on top a few races, to my surprise. I need to find just the right car for the 750pp races, just as I have for the other classes. I just haven't quite found it yet. That Mines GTR is a beast to keep under control.

Oh, and so far I have yet to turn the traction control on for any of my races. The 750pp races make it a tempting proposition, but I think I'll stick it out. I've won about 60% of my 750pp races without TCS, so we'll see how much more I can increase that, in my favor, without the use of aids.

 

[VanHelzer]

are you using a wheel or a pad. I think it makes a big differnce. Overstear is alot more easy to controle with the wheel. Also you can use it for your advantage. With the 111r or the s2k. I use the overstear on the first turn of suzuka to set me self up for the S's. It proly dosnt make sence. but, with the wheel. It does. IMO

I'm using the wheel, and overall the wheel has made a great driver out of me. But my opinion of the GT40 remains the same. And everytime I think about it, it pisses me off that they made that car feel like its on a piano coaster. Other than seeing the carbon project(which is almost driveable for me) I've not seen one GT40 on the track that gave me good competition. In my opinion, the GT40 should be one of the 5 most competitive cars in the 750 pp class races. I understand that there are a couple drivers here that speak the language of that GT40, mad props, I'd love to see a replay of the GT40 actually win a 750 pp race worth mentioning(not the carbon version) like Suzuka( if there is one. I'm pretty sure it would be very rare).

 

[VanHelzer]

It's my experience AWD that if overpowered, they're are useless. An AWD car should rarely be bumped higher than 400hp(unless it was specifically designed for more) as too much wheel spin makes the car push in corners. They are great sports cars( I've had an opportunity to drive a Subaru STI with a full exhuast, dyno'd with down-pipe...That car was the funest car I've ever been in). Horsepower doesnt make a true sports car. Balance does. I've been guilty of looking at a miata and shake my head...the fact is if you took that car down the twisties on HWY 1 in CA, you'd have a ****-eating grin on your face, just as I know I would.

 

[Earth]

I'm using the wheel, and overall the wheel has made a great driver out of me. But my opinion of the GT40 remains the same. And everytime I think about it, it pisses me off that they made that car feel like its on a piano coaster. Other than seeing the carbon project(which is almost driveable for me) I've not seen one GT40 on the track that gave me good competition. In my opinion, the GT40 should be one of the 5 most competitive cars in the 750 pp class races. I understand that there are a couple drivers here that speak the language of that GT40, mad props, I'd love to see a replay of the GT40 actually win a 750 pp race worth mentioning(not the carbon version) like Suzuka( if there is one. I'm pretty sure it would be very rare).

The Ford GT '06 and Concept Ford GT LM Test Car are both terrible driving cars in this game without proper tuning. But even with turning I found them to be tougher then most of the cars out there with a basic setup.

The Ford GT '06 was fast enough to win 700pp races, but it doesn't stand a chance in 750pp at Suzuka. Why? Because the car is balanced more towards power then weight.

Ford GT LM Test Car
480 HP / 960 kgs

Ford GT '06
?600+HP? / 1220 kgs

Where is the ill handling GT going to use all that extra power at Suzuka?

I was using the normal Ford GT '06 at 700pp Suzuka and Fuji.

I won a few races and was competitive at Fuji

However I eventually quit using the car at both tracks.

Why you ask?

If you aren't driving a Nissan GT-R at Fuji 700pp you can kiss your chances at winning good bye. Use any car other then the GT-R and you can count on being behind half a dozen GT-Rs after the first turn. You're only hope at a win is for the leading GT-Rs to make a mistake. Sadly, I was molded into using a GT-R exclusively at Fuji 700pp

I found the Ford GT '06 a fun car to drive at Suzuka 700pp because it was so rare, and beating other drivers in it was fun...BUT, when I faced a tuned car or just a good (good as in ability to navigate the course half decently) driver, I always ended up in the kitty litter. I had to baby the car around the corners, brake early because of the weight, and because of that guys were just ramming my *** over and over AND OVER AND OVER.

After a couple of days of the nonsense I quit using the normal car and started using the Test car so they couldn't hit me as often because of it's better braking and handling. Sad I know. I came close to winning a race at Suzuka with about 8 cars in the GT '06, but because of my big lead the rubber band physics kicked in on the last lap and even with the highest degree of care through the esses the car just snapped around when I barely touched the gas coming out of a bend. Anothe race I had a large lead with the Ford GT '06 but sadly GTP_Sphinx was behind me and ate me alive. I'm sure I won some races at Suzuka 700pp in the Ford GT '06, but all I can remember is getting rammed over and over and over.

Oh and to make the GTs handle better just change the front toe to +0.05 and the rear toe to -0.05. Makes a world of difference.

 

[VanHelzer]

I haven't really driven the GT-R much. Been having fun with the tuned corvette(i know, don't flame me.lol) and the 600 pp tuned clio. that car is good fun! I'll have to give the GT-R some time. I also love that EVO X, a great car and I can trust it the corners. But everyone is driving it now and I need more flavor! Happy trails see you on the track...oh ya, I raced against you in the the GT40 project car I think last week...I sucked! I apologise for looking like a first grade rookie.lol

 

[Dbo129]

That Ford GT40 concept LM race car is a beast and very challenging at Suzuka 750pp. I gave it the ol' college try. WOW. Very difficult and challenging. I think it would be a good race if all the cars were the Ford GT40 concept LM race car. I bet the dust and tempers would be flying all over the place but I think the driver who is most patient and has the best finess will win that one. I would like to set that race up sometime.

 

[Nitrof1]

feeling sux that you are the only one who is driving with no aids...

 

[Joe43302]

feeling sux that you are the only one who is driving with no aids...

If by no aids you mean ABS-1 default, than you're not the only one. Feeling sucks when you drive like that and are only using R2's...

 

[SavageEvil]

Lol, man i've never seen soo many wall riders in one race. HSR forward, it's like a carousel. Lots of wild drivers and those who don't like to be passed, i just love to watch as they attempt to dive deeper into a corner only to pass them with grip, lol. Those elises are nice, but a tuned vette will eat them alive on this course. haven't seen any GTP'ers on there yet

 

[hornet_burnout]

(...)Those elises are nice, but a tuned vette will eat them alive on this course. haven't seen any GTP'ers on there yet

Alive you say... What PP race do you prefer?

Edit: just did a 750 with an Elise and no problems... But I'm EU region.

 

[yannc]

The Elise is still there, even in 750 points. I drive one and it is so much fun with a G25 (no assist). You need to be a little more gentle on the throttle when you exit the corner (compared to 650 and 700 points), but it's still a good match. You can really fly through the S curves, and can overtake the corvette right after the 130R (The Elise go through this corner at 250kph, and I don't think many cars can do that).

 

[MrDuck1234]

It's my experience AWD that if overpowered, they're are useless. An AWD car should rarely be bumped higher than 400hp(unless it was specifically designed for more) as too much wheel spin makes the car push in corners. They are great sports cars( I've had an opportunity to drive a Subaru STI with a full exhuast, dyno'd with down-pipe...That car was the funest car I've ever been in). Horsepower doesnt make a true sports car. Balance does. I've been guilty of looking at a miata and shake my head...the fact is if you took that car down the twisties on HWY 1 in CA, you'd have a ****-eating grin on your face, just as I know I would.

yes Sti i one of my favorit cars. I loved the short shift on it. I know most mags and car sites say the 0-60 is 4.5 But i swear i have hit under in it. I think its how you luanch the car. I remember reving to atleast 5 and just droping it. What a sensation that was. Grips like nothing else too,

 

[hornet_burnout]

The skyline was a piece of crap (on GT4) as a AWD. I had the most awkward settings on it just to make it drift on all 4, as it kept understeering under power. That is why I haven't even tried it on GT5P, and why I don't like AWD's on tarmac.

Well the Mines Skyline is an excellent machine on GT5P. Easy to set-up, rolls around corners rather nicely and overteers on demand... I'm convinced... I like it way, way more than any other AWD, the GT-R included.

 

[Div is back]

Put R compound tires on your vehicle, adjust your suspension settings, be gentle on the exists and don't floor it on 3rd -4th gear high speed turns and you'll be fine.

 

[hornet_burnout]

umm no!....races are won on the straights. Its how you exit the turn. Why do you think nailing the Apex a big key in winning. People spend alot of time studying turns just so they get out of it faster. I dont know if you realized but the start/finnish is just one big straight...HP is a big deal. and than after HP its aerodynamics. Get your stuff right.

Just to illustrate my point statin the opposite :-)

It's still possible to beat the Elise, but you have to drive better than the guy in the Elise (in this case me) and a lot better than those Ferrari chumps... the desperation in the beginning of lap 4 turned on the dirty tactics, but still I held it together:

 

[Laorin]

umm no!....races are won on the straights. Its how you exit the turn. Why do you think nailing the Apex a big key in winning. People spend alot of time studying turns just so they get out of it faster. I dont know if you realized but the start/finnish is just one big straight...HP is a big deal. and than after HP its aerodynamics. Get your stuff right.

Actually, you two are arguing about an essential feature of racing, and neither one of you is correct. The correct viewpoint is, both are essential.

Races can be won either in the straights or the turns. It all depends on how competent your team is and what your car is balanced for. You'd be a fool to say one or the other is the only way to win a race - the ideal car can both corner and get onto a straight like a bat outta hell, but you need to have a masterful grasp of tuning your car and a hell of a driver for it all to go together properly. People have been debating turns vs. straight line power forever, and the debate shouldn't exist. Both are vital.

And you'd also be surprised how many races are actually won not by having the fastest car but the most reliable. If your car can corner and go fast it won't do any good if your front axle decides to snap in half due to crappy engineering.

 

[hornet_burnout]

Actually, you two are arguing about an essential feature of racing, and neither one of you is correct. The correct viewpoint is, both are essential.

Races can be won either in the straights or the turns. It all depends on how competent your team is and what your car is balanced for. You'd be a fool to say one or the other is the only way to win a race - the ideal car can both corner and get onto a straight like a bat outta hell, but you need to have a masterful grasp of tuning your car and a hell of a driver for it all to go together properly. People have been debating turns vs. straight line power forever, and the debate shouldn't exist. Both are vital.

And you'd also be surprised how many races are actually won not by having the fastest car but the most reliable. If your car can corner and go fast it won't do any good if your front axle decides to snap in half due to crappy engineering.

Both are needed. But not in equal parts.

In a GT5P context, with limited Performance Points where you have to choose between both, better handling at the sacrifice of top speed wins races everywhere except Daytona Speedway.

In real life (with identical cars), I believe the same occurs. It varies from track to track, but top speed is always the other thing you look at after getting the corners right.

Obviously you can't sacrifice all your speed. And after having got the corners right, I work on top speed. Like this Elise for instance. I was flying over every corner but could not take corner 1 faster than 262K because I could not get there faster. Which was making me loose some races against GT LM's. So I worked the settings to get 272 on corner 1 and have almost the same lap times. And that helped me win races. But did not make me faster in terms of lap times.

If you take the F1 example again, it's just what I'm saying. Max speed is usually barely 320 in most tracks because of the downforce used for the corners, although it can go to 400 without wing.

So that sums up my view of the subject.

 

[Joe43302]

Both are needed. But not in equal parts.

This.

People need to find their own balance between what they can and can't drive and look at the track at hand. Some people can drive a fast car that doesn't handle that great, some people need a slower car that takes aim at cornering. The thing is though, when you strive one over the other, you usually end up paying (unless it's Daytona) in the end. Personally, I prefer my cars to be faster than have incredible cornering ability. This is just me, and I know there are weaknesses with this style, my cornering is severly limited, but this is my preference. I do tune for some cornering ability, you'd be a fool to think that you should spend all your PP on one or the other, but I spend less PP on cornering than I do with horsepower. Now if you put every bit of points you had in cornering, but the car can't do more than 130MPH, you're pretty screwed, right? Likewise if I take 100 extra points leftover and throw them all in power, I've got a car that hits 210MPH in the first corner, too bad it won't make that corner though.

This is the balance you need. If the car is too slow, it doesn't matter how good you can corner, but if the car can't turn, it doesn't matter how fast it drives.

Case in point is shown perfectly with the new 750PP races. Everyone had their set up that worked for them in the 700PP class, but you can see people in the 750 series having increasingly more trouble with their cars now. Why? Because I can assure you half the people decided to channel that extra 50PP in one or the other, speed or cornering, and not evenly distibuting it. What did I do with my Corvette? I jumped up the horsepower while at the same time upgrading to R2 tires and lightening the car. I was astonished at how well I performed in the first few days against other cars that, under 700PP rules, would have probably been a lost cause for me.

Balance is key. When you prioritize too much you're only asking for trouble.

 

[Laorin]

GT5P at this point is not a simulator and I wasn't really referring to it. I was just speaking on general principle, not exclusively in the context for GT5P.

 

[hornet_burnout]

This.

People need to find their own balance between what they can and can't drive and look at the track at hand. Some people can drive a fast car that doesn't handle that great, some people need a slower car that takes aim at cornering. The thing is though, when you strive one over the other, you usually end up paying (unless it's Daytona) in the end. Personally, I prefer my cars to be faster than have incredible cornering ability. This is just me, and I know there are weaknesses with this style, my cornering is severly limited, but this is my preference. I do tune for some cornering ability, you'd be a fool to think that you should spend all your PP on one or the other, but I spend less PP on cornering than I do with horsepower. Now if you put every bit of points you had in cornering, but the car can't do more than 130MPH, you're pretty screwed, right? Likewise if I take 100 extra points leftover and throw them all in power, I've got a car that hits 210MPH in the first corner, too bad it won't make that corner though.

This is the balance you need. If the car is too slow, it doesn't matter how good you can corner, but if the car can't turn, it doesn't matter how fast it drives.

Case in point is shown perfectly with the new 750PP races. Everyone had their set up that worked for them in the 700PP class, but you can see people in the 750 series having increasingly more trouble with their cars now. Why? Because I can assure you half the people decided to channel that extra 50PP in one or the other, speed or cornering, and not evenly distibuting it. What did I do with my Corvette? I jumped up the horsepower while at the same time upgrading to R2 tires and lightening the car. I was astonished at how well I performed in the first few days against other cars that, under 700PP rules, would have probably been a lost cause for me.

Balance is key. When you prioritize too much you're only asking for trouble.

You are both right when you say It's a good balance that gets you there.

I guess when I say not in equal parts, it's more in the ways of amount of top speed vs cornering speed influences lap times in this track, and how hard it is to get that setup right. Less 5 or 10 bhp, but better tires usually equals 1 second slower from straight line speed, but gain you 2 seconds from all corners. This difference diminishes the longer the straights become on other tracks and Daytona as pointed previously, it's top speed land, and it's pretty easy to setup your car for that.

 

[Joe43302]

Yeah Burnout, people fail to understand this though, and the debate will continue to rage on. When people look at a course like Suzuka the first thing they do is scrap all their PP they put in speed in favor of aerodynamics, weight reduction, and tires, but it's still not going to get you a win. I laugh pretty hard when people assume that every car needs R3 tires and 85% weight. It's great and all, but not needed if you spend just a little bit of care in your driving, and it's actually counter-productive for two reasons, and they are:

1.) It encourages bad driving habits. I intentionally tried out R3 tires on the Corvette with the 700PP Suzuka trial, and I can tell you now it's not only not needed, but I started driving like a maniac just because there wasn't much I could do to screw up. I made all kinds of moves that I would never have been able to do with R1, and even R2 tires for that matter, and they were moves that nobody should be doing. The driving was far too easy, and wasn't making me better in any way.

2.) The 16PP I wasted with R3's over R1's could have easily been spent on a speed boost. As I said, it didn't take too much to drive with R1's, just use care, caution, and common sense (which I will humbly call the "Three C's" from now on) and you'll be fine. Now is it really worth sacrificing all that speed just so you can drive like a maniac? I still only use R2's even after the 50PP boost, because you simply don't need to use anything higher. Even now, I could probably do without.

If you've got the right set-up, you'll still have to use the three C's of driving, but it won't overwhelm you, and you'll still have the speed to compete. People don't think about these things when they tune, and end up with obsolete cars when it's all said and done. Useless modifications are things that screw you. Those PP's aren't for looks, and never think that any of them are "Gift" points. The best racers on GT5 are the ones who make every last PP count, since none of them are givens.

 

[SavageEvil]

Alive you say... What PP race do you prefer?

Edit: just did a 750 with an Elise and no problems... But I'm EU region.

Im usually in 750PP races US region. I just race it to get money, lots of idiot drivers, when they can't out run me, they resort to stupid tactics, using my cars as a brake and trying to stop me from passing them. The tuned vette is pretty fun, I tried the Gt LM, what on earth is this monster, squrrely handling on sweeping corners, but it sure is fast. I've seen elises once in a while, but I always pass them, they tend to do wide turns: for obvious reasons, very interesting to watch, because i turn tight and i will catch them upon exiting the turns. hope to see you online sometime. Watch out for the morons.

 

[Delphic Reason]

As I said, it didn't take too much to drive with R1's, just use care, caution, and common sense (which I will humbly call the "Three C's" from now on) and you'll be fine.

All my 500pp cars roll R1 tires. I haven't had too much trouble yet (online). Been having a blast with my Citroen, Integra, and Mini.