950bhp "Bugatti Buster" Porsche planned.

[Dave A]

Does it? Can you show me a single article where they confirm the Gumpert Apollo has run the Ring in under 7 mins? also the Apollo has more than 450bhp, it's around 600bhp. Downforce slowss your top speed down, the FXX isn't geared to try and go that fast, it's all geared to accelerate as fast as possible to a speed usable on a track. The CCX was supposed to hit 250mph, but with the little wing they've added there's no chance of that anymore but without the wing it was supposed to be capable of it but we'll never know since there was no official run, at least none that I know of. Considering the CCR can go over 240 I don't see why a wingless CCX would struggle to hit the high 240's to 250.

 

[Poverty]

^^ Exactly, this supposed "bugatti buster" was only entitled so to gain people attention, and hopefully buy the magazine. In relaity this car will be a "FXX Buster".

 

[amp88]

Sorry I meant the 956 not 917.

The 956 is quicker than the 917. The 917 (in its 'standard' guise) had a 4.5 litre flat 12 non-tubrocharged engine producing roughly 520bhp and was introduced in 1969. The 956 had a 2.6 litre twin turbocharged flat 6 prodcing roughly 630bhp and was introduced in 1982.

13 years more technology and at least 100 more hp.

The non-turbocharged 917s did, over time, get the benefit of improved horsepower, up to over 600bhp by 1971, but as I said above, they were introduced with 520. If, on the other hand, you mean one of the turbocharged 917s (i.e. the CanAm cars - the 917/10K producing 900bhp or the 917/30 producing in the region of 1100bhp) then that's obviously a different matter altogether.

edit: On-topic - I don't see the reason to do this from Porsche's point of view. They have one of the best motorsport heritages so why build this just to take the Veyron's record? In their road car history they've never focused on top speed, if they were in that frame of mind they'd never have effectively limited the 959 to 198/199mph, they'd have added another 10bhp to push it over 200.

 

[Dave A]

^^ Exactly, this supposed "bugatti buster" was only entitled so to gain people attention, and hopefully buy the magazine. In relaity this car will be a "FXX Buster".

Possibly with the first part, but either way it won't beat an FXX, not in road legal form anyway. And can you show me where the Apollo ran the ring in under 7 mins?

And yeah, the 956 is faster than most 917s and theres not a chance IN HELL that a 950bhp road car will come remotely close to topping a 956 hot lap of the ring. I was pretty certain about a 917, but a 956 I'd bet my house on, I'd bet my partens house on it too.

Also the gentlemens agreement between thoes German manufacturers is because of the autobahn being unrestricted in places.

 

[McLaren]

You never know Live. While everyone thinks of Ferrari as technology kings, they forget the Stuggart boys are right on their heels.

 

[Dave A]

Yeah but were comparing a purpose built track racer which runs on slick tyres, has proper race tuned suspension none of this "race tuned" then compromised for raod use setups and it has proper race car running gear with a car that's going to be built to run on the road. The slick tyres alone give the FXX a huge advantage over any road car. The ammount of time racing slicks can cut off any cars lap times is phenominal, then you have the gearing on the FXX, like I said it's geared to accelerate as fast as possible to usable speeds on a race track, then you have the suspension, the FXX will be a lot stiffer a: because it has slicks the grip can cope with it, and b: because it's not being considered with any road use in it at all. Then theres other aspects of the FXX like it's downforce which will probably be higher than the Porsche as well. I wouldn't even be so presumptuos to say the TVR Speed 12 would keep up with an FXX, not in road legal form anyway.

 

[McLaren]

Eh, true, but we'll have to see considering the FXX is being used to develop the next "Enzo."

 

[amp88]

Well, AFAIK, the standard Enzo isn't run on the Ring due to fear of damage so there's no way the FXX would be run there so you could argue that even a standard Carrera would beat the Enzo or FXX round the Nordschleife, nevermind a Carrera GT or one with 950bhp.

You're right, l4s, though in that an FXX would be quicker than this 950bhp Carrera GT if it were to materialise.

 

[Dave A]

Not stricly true, telemetry and data is being used from the FXX to help with the next Ferrari hypercar, but the actual FXX iself is not the next Enzo test mule. The FXX itself isn't a road car, it's not road legal nor will it ever be so as a test mule for a road car it's useless, but you can take data from certain things and parts to help develop a fast road car.

With regards to the FXX at the Ring, it's a lot stiffer than the Enzo so theres a better chance the FXX wouldn't have a problem at the ring, the Enzo would hit the ground which in turn would potentially take the nose off, but if the FXX is stiff enough (and I see no reason to belive it's not) then it should tackle the Ring fine.

 

[Poverty]

Also the gentlemens agreement between thoes German manufacturers is because of the autobahn being unrestricted in places.

Then how come porsche never adhered? I have a article on reasons why the big 3 germans went along with the 155mph limit, and why theyre now thinking of scrapping it.

As for 950bhp CGT vs FXX, I dont think the CGT will be much of a road car at all. For all we know porsche hasnt got any plans to make a 950hp at all, but I reckon if they did, it would be coming with racing slicks, and slap the FXX silly.

 

[amp88]

I'd say the fact that it's so stiff would cause more of a problem than it'd solve. Not only is the FXX stiffer than the Enzo but it's also lower, so the undertray is imediately closer to the ground anyway. The stiff suspension wouldn't be compliant over the many bumps, combine that with poor ground clearance and, IMO, you've got a bit of a disaster on your hands. Raise the ride height 30mms, soften the suspension and I think you'd have a better chance of putting in a reasonable laptime.

As for 950bhp CGT vs FXX, I dont think the CGT will be much of a road car at all. For all we know porsche hasnt got any plans to make a 950hp at all, but I reckon if they did, it would be coming with racing slicks, and slap the FXX silly.

If they did make a 950bhp Carrera GT it seems they'd only do it as a PR stunt to take the Production top speed. In order to do that it'd have to be on road legal tyres, so slicks are immediately out of the window. Unless, of course, they made an uber-uber-Carrera GT with slicks.

 

[Dave A]

Because it was a gentlemens agrement and not a law, Porsche didn't have to adhere to it and because of thier sporting nature they didn't want to, so they never entered the agreement. The reason was because of the unrestricted sections of the autobahn, they made the agreement to prevent them from entering speed wars but not because of cost, because they felt they had a responsiblity to not promote stupid speeds on the autobahn.

Regarding the stiffer being worse, the problem with the Enzo was it's front overhang, they were worried that the nose would dip into the ground on the Ring because it wasn't stiff enough to accomodat the front overhang, if the suspnesion is stiff enough the nose wont dip. Remember F1 cars have raced at the Ring and they were stiffer and lower than an Enzo.

And Poverty, the second you put racing slicks on a raod car it's no longer a raod car so it counts as modified and as such negates any claims Porshe would be able to make regarding it's performance. Porsche has nothing to gain to build a 950bhp road car and supply racing slicks, theres no reason to think they would either. Think about it, no lap times with them on would be recognised, no car comparison tests would have them on, supplying them would simply add a few grand to the cost of building the car.

And when and where did the Gumpert Apollo run the ring in under 7 mins? Third time I've asked now.

 

[Poverty]

Because it was a gentlemens agrement and not a law, Porsche didn't have to adhere to it and because of thier sporting nature they didn't want to, so they never entered the agreement. The reason was because of the unrestricted sections of the autobahn, they made the agreement to prevent them from entering speed wars but not because of cost, because they felt they had a responsiblity to not promote stupid speeds on the autobahn.

There were two reasons for the agreement. First it was thought that it would preserve the unrestricted speed limit tradition of some stretches of Germany’s autobahns — something the car companies feared would be in jeopardy if they continued to make ever faster cars — and second it brought design advantages. If a car’s top speed is 155mph rather than, say, 200mph, it can have more comfortable suspension, require less aerodynamic work and use smaller brakes, lowering development and production costs. Manufacturers can also continue to improve acceleration times without commensurate increases in top speeds and the problems that brings.

Source:The London Times

And Poverty, the second you put racing slicks on a raod car it's no longer a raod car so it counts as modified and as such negates any claims Porshe would be able to make regarding it's performance. Porsche has nothing to gain to build a 950bhp road car and supply racing slicks, theres no reason to think they would either. Think about it, no lap times with them on would be recognised, no car comparison tests would have them on, supplying them would simply add a few grand to the cost of building the car.

I know, im callin BS on half the article factualness, I dont see why porsche would have any desires to build a car which can do 260mph. Its just not worth it.

And when and where did the Gumpert Apollo run the ring in under 7 mins? Third time I've asked now.

Im trying to find a source but have non at the moment. The apollo has definetly run the ring alot though with the production model. I will e-mail them and see if they will give me some details on it.

 

[Dave A]

There were two reasons for the agreement. First it was thought that it would preserve the unrestricted speed limit tradition of some stretches of Germany’s autobahns — something the car companies feared would be in jeopardy if they continued to make ever faster cars — and second it brought design advantages. If a car’s top speed is 155mph rather than, say, 200mph, it can have more comfortable suspension, require less aerodynamic work and use smaller brakes, lowering development and production costs. Manufacturers can also continue to improve acceleration times without commensurate increases in top speeds and the problems that brings.

Source:The London Times

Okay I can accept that, it's cost and the autobahn.

I know, im callin BS on half the article factualness, I dont see why porsche would have any desires to build a car which can do 260mph. Its just not worth it.

We agree that Porsche probably won't build the car.

Im trying to find a source but have non at the moment. The apollo has definetly run the ring alot though with the production model. I will e-mail them and see if they will give me some details on it.

I'm wondering if your thinking of the story near the bottom here.
http://www.autocarmag.com/FirstDrive_Summary.asp?RT=215463

A potential customer has managed a 9min 25sec lap of the combined Nürburgring circuits (GP track and Nordschleife) which would leave it at close to 7min 10sec over the Nordschleife alone. This would give the Apollo the production-car lap record if it were attempted.

So it's not under 7 mins, but maybe I was being a bit harsh in the way I was asking.

 

[Poverty]

I'm wondering if your thinking of the story near the bottom here.
http://www.autocarmag.com/FirstDrive....asp?RT=215463

Yeah Ive read that, but ive also read on another forum about a member who was at the ring, when gumpert came along with the prototype and finished product and did several laps. So im sure that they have a propper ring time, and hopefully they will tell me.

 

[Dave A]

If they have thats really good, be sure to let me know when they get back to you for my Ring times list 👍.

 

[harrytuttle]

I reckon this car could top 258 in theory, put porsche has never been about doing top speed runs. Theyre speciality is handling, and I could see this car topping out at 240mph.

It's not that they've never been about top speed runs, but they have made failed claims about top speeds and being the fastest of their contemporaries. The 959 was supposed to be the first road car to hit 200MPH. I don't think anyone ever got it up past 190. The Carrera GT was supposed to go over 220MPH, but I've not heard of more than 195.

If this article is anything more than complete fluff, then they author must have it confused. I would think a FXX-type makes much more sense, given their long motorsport history and on-road competition with Ferrari.

 

[Dave A]

The 959's offical top speed run saw 200mph it was officially recognised as the fastest production car in the world very breifley before the Ferrari F40 pipped by 0.something of a mph. The Carrarer GT's top speed is 205mph, not 220mph and that's a top speed that's been hit as well.

 

[Poverty]

They say that the unrestricted, the CGT will produce about 850hp in NA form, so I think this car would be NA.

 

[Dave A]

That's a lot of restricting goin on, but what's doing the restricting, or that much restricting. The car doesn't have restrictor plates or anything like that, and I can't find any info about unrestricted Carrera GT engines on Google. But to have an 850bhp, 5.7 liter, naturally aspirated engine is asking for a lot from the engine, I can't see you getting much reliability from it. I don't see any reason not to turbo the car, only benefits, that is unless the use a different engine altogether that would be less stressed per bhp.

 

[Poverty]

Well where I read it they didnt give any specific details, other than if the revs being restricted or something like that.

Seeing as it was to be a lemans engine to begin with, it could very well be factual.

 

[Dave A]

It doesn't rev much higher than the rev limiter, peak power is reached before the limiter, so I can't see ithaving one poeak and then another. And sure, the engine may well be capable of producing that power in racing tune, but the engine in the Carrera GT is not race tuned, and neither will it ever be sine a raod cars engine has to last a hundered to two hundered thousand miles or more, not a maximum of 24hrs before a re-build. The engine in the Carrera GT would need a lot to make it a race engine but it would be possible, but in the process it would lose it's reliability.

 

[Poverty]

Enzo has never been big on reliability itself, and to be honest most cars like this would usually have a engine rebuild at 60k miles, if they ever even reach that, which most of them never will.

 

[Dave A]

The Enzo hasn't been bad reliably, what a couple have broke down, so what, what about the 390+ that haven't. Even still, talking about an Enzo's reliablility and a GT racers is moot since theres still a huge gulf, I think you'll agree that you would not have to have a full engine re-build after every few days driving an Enzo. Race engines are streesed to and often over thier limits, road cars don't come close to this, that is why my Bora will do more than 150k miles but the Bora that racing in some South Ameican touring car league won't manage a couple of thousand miles before needing a re-build, and often would need maintenance during that thousand or two miles.

 

[Poverty]

If you didnt rag the enzo engine to its maximium capability it will do a whole lot more miles than say, if you took it to the race track everynow and again.

The same goes for my car and your car. If I drove mine like a **** it would either eventually blow up, give up, or require alot of expensive attention. Especially if I got it remapped for track performance.

 

[Dave A]

Even driving it fast on a track it will last a lot longer than a GT racer, and I'm not talking longer in the hundereds of miles, but thousands. The engines in road cars including the Enzo are relatively unstressed when compared to say a Maserati MC12 GT1 car or Aston Martin DBR9 or Cheverolet Corvette C6R etc.

 

[Kent]

On the racing engine note... Racing engines need constant work- they push too hard for anything less (and it's not safe to push an engine till it breaks!).
Daily road cars don't burn gas the same way or put out as much power as their "road-illegal" race car counterparts.

On the Porsche note...

Bugatti's Veyron sure is fast but I bet the 950hp closed coupe porsche will be faster on any track/road course.

Put both of them on the Nordschliefe completely stock and then test them both somewhere like the Top Gear track or Infineon- I bet the Porsche's times would show superior sports car potential.

It's still a matter of driver on tracks like the Ring.

None the less, my money would be on the Porsche. 👍
Veyron can run but I still haven't seen any sort of real racing out the Veyron (except rich-men's toying and legit straight line speed).... Porsche though, they have managed some amazing work with previous closed coupe "Le Mans style" supercars and more recently, created a great work with the 500+ Carrera GT.

950HP from Porsche should be very, VERY fast.

 

[harrytuttle]

The 959's offical top speed run saw 200mph it was officially recognised as the fastest production car in the world very breifley before the Ferrari F40 pipped by 0.something of a mph. The Carrarer GT's top speed is 205mph, not 220mph and that's a top speed that's been hit as well.

Really? Everywhere I've looked, the 959 is officially listed at 198, and I can't find any road test that goes over 186. Perhaps you're looking at Car & Driver, the same group who claimed the McLaren acheived 241 MPH, something that has yet to be repeated and officially tested. Or maybe you're referring to the US-legalized version, which is rumored to put out 650HP, not 450HP.

As for the Carrera GT, early quotes were 220+. I have the old issue of Evo from 2002 somewhere. I should dig it up....

 

[TheCracker]

Really? Everywhere I've looked, the 959 is officially listed at 198, and I can't find any road test that goes over 186. Perhaps you're looking at Car & Driver, the same group who claimed the McLaren acheived 241 MPH, something that has yet to be repeated and officially tested. Or maybe you're referring to the US-legalized version, which is rumored to put out 650HP, not 450HP.

I always thought that the 959's official top speed was universally acknowledged as 197mph. There is no US-legalized 959 either.

 

[Specialized]

Even driving it fast on a track it will last a lot longer than a GT racer, and I'm not talking longer in the hundereds of miles, but thousands. The engines in road cars including the Enzo are relatively unstressed when compared to say a Maserati MC12 GT1 car or Aston Martin DBR9 or Cheverolet Corvette C6R etc.

There is only one exception to this rule.......Alfa Romeo. The Alfa would have broken down at least 10 times before you get it to the track!

Spec....