A call for mod community support

  • Thread starter Thread starter Voodoovaj
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Rallywagon
While I agree that there should be more to tuning and to many variants of certain cars - even Kaz has agreed to this, and stated his reason for it - you won't see something like engine swaps in a game like this. They would never get a license for it from the car manufacturers. No way will Ford allow a GM engine swap, or toyota get a honda motor in this game.
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You're completely forgetting that there are already cars in the game right now that have had different manufacturer's engines in them. I'm talking about the same car different brand thing that is going on in real life but also in the game. The Subaru and Scion with a Toyota engine, or the Infiniti with a Nissan engine. Both have exactly the same engines but have different branding. So you can't say that manufacturer's won't agree to it. They're doing it anyway.

What about tuner cars? Hmm? They've basically done what the "hackers" are doing. A Nissan car but made better and named Nismo or a Mazda made better named RE Amemiya. Isn't this not what you're saying the manufacturer's would never agree to? I beg to differ.

There's so many manufacturer's in the game that are in partnership or are part of a greater company. So I don't see them having a problem with it. My dad's car in real life - a Nissan Note - bought from the Nissan dealer. And it has a Peugot engine . . .

If that's not an engine swap that the "manufacturer's would never agree to" then you need to reassess the automotive industry.
 
Voodoovaj
Here's some free professional advice for Sony and PD. It is in the franchise's best interest to support the mod community (if Sony is not doing so already).
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GT5 features licensed reproductions of real-world automobiles. These licenses are legal documents.

So you want PD to neglect it's legal obligations to these manufacturers, in order to support a few hex editors who broke the PSN Terms of Service/User Agreement.

Are you able to tell us what profession your free advice is qualified from?
 
jimipitbull
GT5 features licensed reproductions of real-world automobiles. These licenses are legal documents.

So you want PD to neglect it's legal obligations to these manufacturers, in order to support a few hex editors who broke the PSN Terms of Service/User Agreement.

Are you able to tell us what profession your free advice is qualified from?
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Well, PD can renegotiate with the manufacturer. It's not a one way street, you know...
 
iainoflo85
You're completely forgetting that there are already cars in the game right now that have had different manufacturer's engines in them. I'm talking about the same car different brand thing that is going on in real life but also in the game. The Subaru and Scion with a Toyota engine, or the Infiniti with a Nissan engine. Both have exactly the same engines but have different branding. So you can't say that manufacturer's won't agree to it. They're doing it anyway.

What about tuner cars? Hmm? They've basically done what the "hackers" are doing. A Nissan car but made better and named Nismo or a Mazda made better named RE Amemiya. Isn't this not what you're saying the manufacturer's would never agree to? I beg to differ.

There's so many manufacturer's in the game that are in partnership or are part of a greater company. So I don't see them having a problem with it. My dad's car in real life - a Nissan Note - bought from the Nissan dealer. And it has a Peugot engine . . .

If that's not an engine swap that the "manufacturer's would never agree to" then you need to reassess the automotive industry.
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Nismo is Nissan's Motorsports section, just like TRD is Toyota Racing Development. Infinity, Scion, Lexus are all subbrands of a parent company. In this case they would be Nissan and Toyota. Toyota GT86 has a Subaru engine because it was a joint venture between two companies to reduce production cost. Yes Re Amemiya is a specialized independent tuner which improved base specs of rotaties, they do the same thing you do. The important difference between modding and included game content is LICENSING. Are people really this dense and don't see the difference?

If you want a real live comparison: If you bring your freshly purchased RX7 to Re Amemiya and have it modified, you void your warranty on the car.

As for Mod support. Games need to be fully designed around a Mod support. Skyrim has no Online aspect, there a mod support is without any negative consequences to people trying to enjoy the game in its pure state. Starcraft/Warcraft have strong modding as well, but mods don't interfere to into league matches, they have dedicated sections (DOTA). Halflife->Counterstrike same story. World of Warcraft does not have a Mod support because it would intrude the gaming experience for people. Supporting a modding community is a choice of a game producer. The mod community taking things into their own hand and intruding a community, which has no way to separate itself and prevent modders from joining pure gaming intentions, is just plain rude.

If GT6 supports modding, so be it. All that needs to be ensured is that there is a separate, dedicated server/location where this can be done. The danger and possibility that a modder interferes in undesired situations is what ruins the game for many.

Under this aspect, I hope you can see why the demand for official mod support in GT5 is a bit outrageous.

Just to clarify. I do enjoy mods myself in games that support them. Changing skins on Skyrim armor is awesome and expands the game experience. The difference there is that I dont interfere with anybody. Human common sense can not be taken for granted sadly and people will try to ruin the fun for others by exploiting.
 
thewheelman83
PD has released a significant versions of GT5. They can always implement patches.
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What if a manufacturer doesn't want to renegotiate licenses for a 2 year old game? They can not remove a manufacturer from your game disc.

They can not patch legal documents.

They will not negotiate with cyber terrorists.
 
jimipitbull
What if a manufacturer doesn't want to renegotiate licenses for a 2 year old game? They can not remove a manufacturer from your game disc.

They can not patch legal documents.

They will not negotiate with cyber terrorists.
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So you saying I'm a cyber terrorist? :lol:
I had a hard time typing this reply...
Never say never.
As i said, it's not one way street, buddy.
 
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thewheelman83
So you saying I'm a cyber terrorist? :lol:
I had a hard time typing this reply...
As i said, it's not one way street, buddy.
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You should read the attacking comments on the news feed
 
thewheelman83
I've read the news feed, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, me included, theIynau.
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No need to be defensive I was merely pointing something out.

Opinions are fine attacking is not.

Might want to think about that before you mount that high horse
 
I'm new in here, and co-hosting the F10 Championship (weather + tuning).

This modding (actually in my point of view that`s cheating) kills the "driving simulator" aspect.

That is also why GT5 is no "game" to me - It's much more than that.
There are real people waisting their real lifetime using this.
You will notice that I didn`t mention the words "play" and "game"....

So:

Did I understand that correctly that if I want to keep hackers out of my championsip ( and show my will to do that to clean drivers) is:


  • -use a open lobby (because PD might check)
    -set to Ferrari F1
    -set PP`s
    -specify only 1 tyre-type

It is sad that some things are done because it they are possible and not detectable.
Lance was already mentioned.
 
CasNuerburg
I'm new in here, and co-hosting the F10 Championship (weather + tuning).

This modding (actually in my point of view that`s cheating) kills the "driving simulator" aspect.

That is also why GT5 is no "game" to me - It's much more than that.
There are real people waisting their real lifetime using this.
You will notice that I didn`t mention the words "play" and "game"....

So:

Did I understand that correctly that if I want to keep hackers out of my championsip ( and show my will to do that to clean drivers) is:


-use a open lobby (because PD might check)
-set to Ferrari F1
-set PP`s
-specify only 1 tyre-type

It is sad that some things are done because it they are possible and not detectable.
Lance was already mentioned.
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I agree it has gone to far from just a few people tweaking them to be realistic online lobbys do need to remain clear of hacks and hybrids.
 
thewheelman83
So you saying I'm a cyber terrorist? :lol:
I had a hard time typing this reply...
As i said, it's not one way street, buddy.
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You say freedom fighter, I say terrorist. They are the same thing, seen from different perspectives.

The 'mod community' ----> GT5 terms of service
North Korea -------------> Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons

As for realistic hybrids - Kim Jong Eun learned to drive at age 3. By 8, he could safely maneuver dirt roads at 75 mph
 
jimipitbull
You say freedom fighter, I say terrorist. They are the same thing, seen from different perspectives.

The 'mod community' ----> GT5 terms of service
North Korea -------------> Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons

As for realistic hybrids - Kim Jong Eun learned to drive at age 3. By 8, he could safely maneuver dirt roads at 75 mph
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Interesting on how this matter is involving North Korea and nuclear.
The mod community are not bad, they essentially revitalizing games, like for example other sim racing game on PC. And don't forget, the next PlayStation is using a similar architecture as PC.
 
jimipitbull
GT5 features licensed reproductions of real-world automobiles. These licenses are legal documents.

So you want PD to neglect it's legal obligations to these manufacturers, in order to support a few hex editors who broke the PSN Terms of Service/User Agreement.

Are you able to tell us what profession your free advice is qualified from?
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I used to be a creative director on the Battlefield franchise. I retired from the industry last year.

Since there are not actual "parts" in the game, there is nothing to sue for. There are no Toyota engines, or Porsche suspensions, or anything of the sort. There are only data files with number ranges. One engine file is pretty much the same as another. The same goes for all the "parts" that are swapped. Calling them parts is simply an easier way to communicate what is happening. Data file swapping is what is actually happening.

If an engine is moved from one car to another, the engine sound and power characteristics are transferred. There is no trademarked engines to speak of. Swapping suspensions is done for value range changes. There is no inherent benefit to handling by virtue of the simple swap. So, if I put a "Audi suspension" on another car, all I've done is give that other car the same setting range as that Audi.

The lawsuits happen all the time for reasons that the general public would consider trivial. They tend to happen most when a game is making far more than projected revenue and the licencors want a better cut. If modding created some sales condition that took the licencors out of the revenue sharing equation, then there's be a lawsuit.

The only item of licencor ownership are the trademarks and the vehicle likenesses. So, for instance, if I could take the wheels off a Toyota and put them on a Chevrolet THEN there would be a licencing issue. But, that is not possible.
 
jimipitbull
You say freedom fighter, I say terrorist. They are the same thing, seen from different perspectives.

The 'mod community' ----> GT5 terms of service
North Korea -------------> Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons

As for realistic hybrids - Kim Jong Eun learned to drive at age 3. By 8, he could safely maneuver dirt roads at 75 mph
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Here's a story of hated modders.

Little know fact: BF2 was not going to be set in modern times. The initial feeling was that modern warfare was too sensitive a subject.

Then there was this mod team that created Desert Combat for BF2 (A game that was not designed with mod community in mind btw). The popularity was so great that it changed the direction of BF2...and the rest is history.

History is written by the victorious.
 
As far as modding goes:

Cosmetic modding (deleting stock spoilers, alternate paints, etc.,) I'm completely fine with.

Modifying the cars' data (engine swaps, different frames/suspension for extreme camber, etc.,) not typically my cuppa tea, but I don't see a huge problem with it.

Even converting drivetrain layouts is not unheard of, but that's typically a LOT of custom fabrication work. For Formula Drift, Tanner Foust was (is?...) driving a front engine, rear wheel drive Scion tC, that had the rear-end out of a donor Toyota Supra. Another example would be the RWD drag Civic, owned by Stephan Papadakis (though, at that level of custom fabrication, it's pretty much "Civic" in name only.) As uncommon as that level of fabrication is, I'd need to hear a compelling argument as to why to include it in-game to be on board with the idea.

The 10,000 BHP cars, the "flying cars" and such should be right out, imo. If I wanted an arcade racer, I'd play one.
 
Here's a vid of what would be an unusual conversion: RWD Honda Civic, powered by a Nissan SR20DET. You will please note that the engine block is NOT sitting neatly in the engine bay. Looks like it was stuffed in with a shoe horn. =p




Kudos for this petrol-head, thinking outside of the box, but again, this certainly isn't ordinary enough that we should take it for granted that it not only can be done in real life, but IS done all the time. CAN it be done? Obviously, it can. But, if it were simple / easy enough to do, you'd see more examples of drivetrain swaps in car culture.
 
Stavingo
I shall 1 up you with that honda and give you...

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Comical. ;)

Yeah; it's one thing to just hoon around the track, having a good time, but I'd be interesting in seeing them trying to track the car for time, see what they say about handling. I can only imagine that the engine block out of the 'Vette would throw the balance WAY off. I'd imagine that it would either be mad understeer, or mad oversteer, punching the throttle.
 
Blank_Redge
Comical. ;)

Yeah; it's one thing to just hoon around the track, having a good time, but I'd be interesting in seeing them trying to track the car for time, see what they say about handling. I can only imagine that the engine block out of the 'Vette would throw the balance WAY off. I'd imagine that it would either be mad understeer, or mad oversteer, punching the throttle.
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Yeah the weight distribution would be pretty poor, in the video it already talks about how the chassis keeps getting twisted whilst drifting the car, I think the effects of engine/drivetrain swaps just needs to be better enforced within GT5 and how they affect the car. If you're gonna drop a ridiculous engine into a car like that then be prepared to suffer from chassis replacement all the time.
 
Hrm...

Can't be arsed to look it up right now, but I wonder how many units of Forza 4 sold, versus GT5? Or, however many Forza titles, cumulatively, have sold since GT5 hit the market.

Since the big thing that Forza is supposed to have that GT5 doesn't is extensive car modifying, I think that would be a better argument to gauge demand, rather than a significantly small contingent of GT5 customers (versus total units sold) voicing their concerns here on GTPlanet. (I do realize that there's other factors with Forza, such as brand loyalty to XBox, but I think it'd be the start of a better constructed argument for inclusion of car modification in the GT franchise.)
 
Blank_Redge
I can only imagine that the engine block out of the 'Vette would throw the balance WAY off.
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Probably would only add a hundred-ish pounds to the front. You'd more than make up that weight with the stuff you'd need to add to the rear to make it RWD (including the transmission, which would be mounted far further back than normal because of how much larger it is). It's still going to be fairly front-heavy, but not notably moreso than a regular Civic already is (it just doesn't matter much normally because it's FWD).
 
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Toronado
Probably would only add a hundred-ish pounds to the front. You'd more than make up that weight with the stuff you'd need to add to the rear to make it RWD (including the transmission, which would be mounted far further back than normal because of how much larger it is). It's still going to be fairly front-heavy, but not notably moreso than a regular Civic already is (it just doesn't matter much normally because it's FWD).
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Well, if the Hondavette up there is an EK9 hatch, I think the stock block was one of the B16 series; about 300 lbs.

The LS7 block out of a C6 'Vette would clock about 525 lbs., or the weight difference of one of your more stout mates.

I know that I can feel the difference in the handling of my car if one of my stout mates is riding along. Just sayin'. ;)

Though, to your point, yes; the rear tranny would probably help balance out the weight some.
 
Eh, 525 with the flywheel and clutch, maybe (but even that seems high). Fully dressed LSx block is more like 450-460 (depending on which one you use; LS1s were a bit heavier than all the newer ones), and likely mounted a tad farther back then the original engine was (though I honestly have no clue, with the changing to a transverse layout). Figure that that Civic doesn't have air conditioning installed and has the battery located in the back (plus the transmission), and that narrows the difference in weight balance further.




It probably doesn't handle that well, no, but a RWD Civic wasn't going to handle that well regardless considering how short the wheelbase is and how much weight is on the front no matter what engine you have in it.
 
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