A few odd inconsistancies between the game and real life

[Deutsch Rennen]

Ok so Kaz is Japanese so I can deal with the stupid amount of Japanese cars. But can anyone understand why he made many of the Japanese cars much faster than in real life and the European cars slower. A perfect example is the Sauber Mercedes C9 which holds the record at 247mph in real life can be outrun by a Toyota GT-one which in real life could not eclipse 230mph. Also it takes a turbo upgrade on the c9 to get it within 200hp of its real HP and 500hp short of qualifying HP close to 1500hp from most sources. I don't know what the power of the GT-one is in the game but I know irl it is less than 1000hp. Another problem is a 750hp GTR hitting 225mph how? That is more than impossible in real life. I think they threw realism out of the window just so the Japanese cars would win. It just makes the game seem fake to me and just as comparable to real life as midnight club when it comes to certain cars.

 

[Sum1s2pid]

We must be playing different games. For me, this game is the ultimate in realism. When I drive in real life, the cars around me drive as if I wasn't there. When I drive offline in A-Spec, the cars around me drive as if I wasn't there. When I drive online, the cars around me drive as if I wasn't there. It's so real it's scary.

 

[BrettTheThreat]

We must be playing different games. For me, this game is the ultimate in realism. When I drive in real life, the cars around me drive as if I wasn't there. When I drive offline in A-Spec, the cars around me drive as if I wasn't there. When I drive online, the cars around me drive as if I wasn't there. It's so real it's scary.

</endthread>

 

[andersbratlie]

One thing I've noticed, and is quite baffled about is that the Volvo 240 Estate whith ALL the weight reductions installed in the game, is heavier than a standard 240 is in real life..

 

[Shinzah]

Ok so Kaz is Japanese so I can deal with the stupid amount of Japanese cars. But can anyone understand why he made many of the Japanese cars much faster than in real life and the European cars slower. A perfect example is the Sauber Mercedes C9 which holds the record at 247mph

This is true. At least for the Sauber it is.

in real life can be outrun by a Toyota GT-one which in real life could not eclipse 230mph.

The Gt-One ran at least one top speed run of over 235 iirc. Its not 247, but its pretty fast.

Also it takes a turbo upgrade on the c9 to get it within 200hp of its real HP and 500hp short of qualifying HP close to 1500hp from most sources.

PD didn't have every technical specification for this car. If they did, it would have been a premium. Also Qual weight and power would not be reflected in a game that lacks qualifications.

I don't know what the power of the GT-one is in the game but I know irl it is less than 1000hp.

The GT-One was 700hp @ 6000 RPM in 1999.

Another problem is a 750hp GTR hitting 225mph how? That is more than impossible in real life. I think they threw realism out of the window just so the Japanese cars would win. It just makes the game seem fake to me and just as comparable to real life as midnight club when it comes to certain cars.

Depends on the GTR. I believe the R33, R34, and R35 have all broken the 200mph barrier at some point.

 

[Deutsch Rennen]

I am not talking about the gameplay physics! I'm talking about how pd decided to make certain vehicles inconsistent in terms of power and tip speed to their real life counterparts. Not to mention a 750hp 1300+kg awd car with a .27 drag coefficient achieving 225mph is NOT possible in real life and I am 100% positive of this.
Please don't react with illogical posts talking about the gameplay physics other than what I'm describing just because you enjoy conflict online and want to somehow contradict my post.

Note: This is directed towards som1s2pid's response. Nice name BTW.

 

[Zenmervolt]

The Sauber C9 hit 248 mph on a qualifying tune. It did not hit that speed in race trim. The C11 (the successor to the C9 which used the same M119 engine) was rated at 950 hp in racing trim, very far from the "1,500 hp" you're claiming.

The GT-one was a LeMans Prototype (very different from the Group C regulations under which the Sauber C9 was built) and in low-downforce race trim it could clock 235+ mph despite having less hp than the C9 due to superior aerodynamics. Remember, the C9 is originated in 1987, the 1989 models, while tweaked and having the newer M119 engine, were not examples of state-of-the-art aerodynamics by the time they were racing. The GT-one is ten years newer and the amount of aerodynamic knowledge gained in those 10 years was HUGE.

As far as a 750 hp car hitting 225, that's absolutely possible with the right aero setup. The base GT-R with 480 hp hit 195 mph for Motor Trend. I realise that the power required to go faster increases with the square of speed, but it's not at all inconceivable that 270 more hp than stock could result in an extra 30 mph.

These "odd inconsistencies" are, in reality, neither odd nor inconsistent.

 

[Joker-GTBR]

A perfect example is the Sauber Mercedes C9 which holds the record at 247mph in real life can be outrun by a Toyota GT-one which in real life could not eclipse 230mph. Also it takes a turbo upgrade on the c9 to get it within 200hp of its real HP and 500hp short of qualifying HP close to 1500hp from most sources. I don't know what the power of the GT-one is in the game but I know irl it is less than 1000hp.

Why? Settings. You must be making something wrong that prevents your Sauber of reaching a higher speed than the GT-One

 

[Zenmervolt]

Not to mention a 750hp 1300+kg awd car with a .27 drag coefficient achieving 225mph is NOT possible in real life and I am 100% positive of this.

Drag coefficient alone is WORTHLESS. Without also knowing frontal area, it is impossible to compute total drag. You're basing your assumption on an (apparently) woefully inadequate understanding of how drag is measured.

Also, weight has absolutely nothing whatsoever to do with top speed. Nothing at all. Unless you're driving uphill. On level ground, total drag and gear ratios are the be-all and end-all of top speed. Weight simply doesn't come into the equation.

 

[niky]

The R33 and R34 need a boatload of power to break 200 mph in real-life, but the R35 is more streamlined and a 750 hp R35 doing 225 mph is quite believable. Switzer's P800 has hit 220. It's not inconceivable that with the right gearing and on the right track, 225 is possible.

I groaned when I saw the first post in this thread... Thought to myself: "Not another GT is biased towards Japanese cars" rant. Then I searched... can't find one for GT5. Stays open... for now.

Cries of "bias" have been around ever since the first GT. But it's mostly noise. I mean, really... those of us cursing at the insanity of RM Corvettes (USA), unbeatable Lotus Elises (UK) and the online plagues that are the Veyron (French... German... okay, French) and the X2010 (Red Bullian)... who'd seen the absolute domination of the Elise (UK) and Clio (French) back in GT5P online... we know there's a bias in the game. And it's this:

Good cars are faster than bad cars.

Shame on you PD. Make that playing field level, dammit!

 

[Shinzah]

Also, the air in videogames is more dependant on fluid dynamics then in real life. Its an approximation of a wind tunnel, and therefore a more aerodynamic car has more speed potential. Whatever your argument against the Gt-One, it is the more aerodynamic of the two.

 

[Deutsch Rennen]

The Sauber C9 hit 248 mph on a qualifying tune. It did not hit that speed in race trim. The C11 (the successor to the C9 which used the same M119 engine) was rated at 950 hp in racing trim, very far from the "1,500 hp" you're claiming.

1500hp or thereabouts in qualifying trim is a well documented number given by the race team in many 1990's interviews, ill provide you the links. Whether they over embellished or not is not for us to judge as I'm sure neither of us has had anything to do with the cars engineering and development.

The GT-one was a LeMans Prototype (very different from the Group C regulations under which the Sauber C9 was built) and in low-downforce race trim it could clock 235+ mph despite having less hp than the C9 due to superior aerodynamics. Remember, the C9 is originated in 1987, the 1989 models, while tweaked and having the newer M119 engine, were not examples of state-of-the-art aerodynamics by the time they were racing. The GT-one is ten years newer and the amount of aerodynamic knowledge gained in those 10 years was HUGE.

I'll put more research into the GT-one but what I've been reading gives a 230mph top speed.

As far as a 750 hp car hitting 225, that's absolutely possible with the right aero setup. The base GT-R with 480 hp hit 195 mph for Motor Trend. I realise that the power required to go faster increases with the square of speed, but it's not at all inconceivable that 270 more hp than stock could result in an extra 30 mph.

I'm trying to find a calculator for this but what I do know is that a 1000hp viper with a .28 cd and lower frontal area went 225mph in the late 90's. I've found formulas but not an easy calculator. So ill do the math just for you. I'm using 6.8 sq ft for the frontal area. Don't try and talk like I don't know what's taken into account when measuring terminal velocity. Just because I didn't site every variable Eros not mean I'm not aware of them. People have a huge problem with wanting to debate when they don't even have the grounds for it. Since your such a physicist why don't we both run the math and then agree to who is right or wrong.

These "odd inconsistencies" are, in reality, neither odd nor inconsistent.

Look above

 

[Deutsch Rennen]

The R33 and R34 need a boatload of power to break 200 mph in real-life, but the R35 is more streamlined and a 750 hp R35 doing 225 mph is quite believable. Switzer's P800 has hit 220. It's not inconceivable that with the right gearing and on the right track, 225 is possible.

I groaned when I saw the first post in this thread... Thought to myself: "Not another GT is biased towards Japanese cars" rant. Then I searched... can't find one for GT5. Stays open... for now.

Cries of "bias" have been around ever since the first GT. But it's mostly noise. I mean, really... those of us cursing at the insanity of RM Corvettes (USA), unbeatable Lotus Elises (UK) and the online plagues that are the Veyron (French... German... okay, French) and the X2010 (Red Bullian)... who'd seen the absolute domination of the Elise (UK) and Clio (French) back in GT5P online... we know there's a bias in the game. And it's this:

Good cars are faster than bad cars.

Shame on you PD. Make that playing field level, dammit!

Where is this information coming from? The highest claim I've found for the p800 is 217mph with most at 215mph. At those speeds 1mph could come at a 50hp cost. According to top gears Veyron test talking about speeds above 220mph.

Secondly I was not talking about who wins online races or any broad spectrum complaint. I am talking specifically of the c9, GT-one and GTR.

 

[Russianmule]

A mountain bike can beat a moped, given the right gearing. Thankyou.

 

[nyyellowtaxi]

Take a deep breath and epeat after me. It's only a video game... it's only a video game... it's only a video game...

 

[Tornado]

The GT-one is ten years newer and the amount of aerodynamic knowledge gained in those 10 years was HUGE.

The TS020 also very notably was a state of the art design when it came out, particularly the 1999 version. I'd need to look up the specifics of the Sauber before I can comment more on it, but I will note this:

Another problem is a 750hp GTR hitting 225mph how? That is more than impossible in real life.

I think you need to show some work here. There are several cars in the past 15 years that have exceeded the 225 mark with far less than 750 horsepower. These include the McLaren F1 and the original Koenigsegg CC8S, and you don't have to spend a lot of money to make a bog standard Corvette do the same.

 

[xNEVER-ONEx]

I think the game for the most part is fairly realistic, except that the GTR feels way to fast off the line. Maybe its the launch control.

 

[Sum1s2pid]

Note: This is directed towards Sum1s2pid's response. Nice name BTW.

Hey thanks.

There are some things in the game that are a bit... off. On the plus side, you can make allowances for these differences, and come very close to real-world performance.

I'm not sure why, but PD decided not to give the C9 the numbers it had when it shattered the speed record for Mulsanne Straight, but it's not really that big of a deal to tinker with the car yourself. It's a race car -- not a production car. Its performance numbers and the like are not set in stone.

Half the fun is messing around with stuff. Hop to it. I expect a full report of your tests at the top of the hour.

 

[gman07]

For the 750hp GT-R question:

Drag force increases as square of speed. Thus drag power increases as a cube of speed. If the stock GT-R (lets say it makes 400hp at the wheels) can hit 193mph, and assuming it hits that speed at peak power, the product (Cd*A) is 8.329 sq. ft. Using this drag area and 638 wheel hp (750 crank hp * 85%), the theoretical top speed would be....

225mph.

Granted, there are a lot of variables (actual GT-R whp, actual drivetrain power loss, etc), but this approximation would show that 225mph is not entirely unreasonable.

 

[Zenmervolt]

Look above

Nothing you posted above addresses any of the points I've made. You claim the cars are inconsistent in terms of power and top speed. I've shown that they're not. It's as simple as that. You're pissed that PD modeled the Sauber in race trim (950 hp) rather than qualifying trim. I suppose they could set it up to model the qualifying trim and have the engine explode midway through the 7th lap or something, but otherwise it's just plain ridiculous to suggest that they were wrong to model it in race trim.

As for the math on the top speed, by your math, the stock GT-R with 480 hp can't reach the documented 195 mph that Motor Trend achieved. Since the Motor Trend 195 mph number is verified, as is the stock 480 hp power output of the car, that leaves your math as the piece that must be wrong.

In short, you're simply pissed because it's now obvious that you were FOS.

 

[Shinzah]

For the 750hp GT-R question:

Drag force increases as square of speed. Thus drag power increases as a cube of speed. If the stock GT-R (lets say it makes 400hp at the wheels) can hit 193mph, and assuming it hits that speed at peak power, the product (Cd*A) is 8.329 sq. ft. Using this drag area and 638 wheel hp (750 crank hp * 85%), the theoretical top speed would be....

225mph.

Granted, there are a lot of variables (actual GT-R whp, actual drivetrain power loss, etc), but this approximation would show that 225mph is not entirely unreasonable.

Man I love physics.

 

[ahwaijai]

We have many smart people on this forum. 👍

 

[niky]

Where is this information coming from? The highest claim I've found for the p800 is 217mph with most at 215mph. At those speeds 1mph could come at a 50hp cost. According to top gears Veyron test talking about speeds above 220mph.

Secondly I was not talking about who wins online races or any broad spectrum complaint. I am talking specifically of the c9, GT-one and GTR.

The thing is, you are suggesting that this somehow shows a bias for Japanese vehicles. I am putting this info out there as evidence against. Along with the fact that my last two GT titles have had an American car and a German car on the cover...

The claimed top speed of the P800 is 220 mph. I am not quite sure if that is with the standard box or the custom transmission Switzer sells its customers to go with the power package... A local owner is said to be importing a kit... Can't wait to see it.

RE: wheel hp for calculation... Nissan claims a 10% drivetrain loss... which suggests that gman's calculation is a bit conservative.

Not to say that GT5 is 100% accurate, but it's not like they pick these numbers out of thin air.

 

[TenEightyOne]

The problem with 'top speeds of sports cars' is the same problem that you have with the 'top speeds of F1 cars'.

It depends on the track because teams change bodies, aero, brake ducts, rad intakes, diffusers, tyre widths (where allowed) etc. etc. to optimise the car's performance.

The fastest speed that a car attains in a given season will be it's record speed (obviously) but it may never be able to reach that speed in its configuration at every other track during that season.

In games the coders only have one chance to create a car and more often than not they go for the mid-range setup. This means that people say "Hey, the ABC car had a higher top speed then the XYZ car!" when in reality it only had it once and at one track.