A Proposal for How the Online Racing Interface Should Be Organised.

[Robin]

As it stands I think the way PD have laid out the interface for online racing is really poor. Its over stylized and not very functional.

Here are the problems that I have found with it and below that is a recommendation for how it could be done better.

- Using little pictures of cars to denote class is confusing, the colours don’t really tell you anything and its too small.

- It’s the same with the difficulty helmet icon, chevron, stripes, no stripes!! I can’t be bothered with that, plus no one listens to it anyway people just go on the track they want. As for the ‘how many people’ icon that is so useless, looks like the big brother eye! Does it mean good or bad!

- Why is pretty much all of the screen not used in the online menu? It’s a thin strip in the centre and it really is too small. Yes the globe thingy with all the streaking lines is nice but really, you only need it in the connecting stage.

- When its searching or connecting or whatever its doing its not really clear, a progress bar is the worst kind of thing for this as it speeds up slows down and sometimes freezes altogether meaning you need to reset you PS3. Or it could just come up with the stupid error after about 5 mins usually because it can’t find anyone else!

- You then have further loading in the grid screen waiting for more people to join, this can take ages and you usually end up starting at the bottom, it seems the faster you join the higher up the grid you are. Sometimes it will load with half the grid not occupied or even worse just yourself!

- Then your racing, that im not going to cover, it seems ok, The graphics are very nice but I still hate the penalty system and the fact that the cars steer like Scalextrics but that’s for PD to sort.

Now here is how I would lay out the Online Interface.

- You click online from the My Home Page.

- You then are faced with the list of tracks available which fills the screen properly.

- Big letters denote the class of car required A,B,C and the difficulty is shown by a green, yellow and red helmet.

- The connection health is shown by a mobile phone signal style level. This screen will also show you how many are in the que for the next race and the time till it starts…

- You THEN choose your car for the track you want (instead of having to exit then go into your garage!).

- You select the race and are brought into a waiting lobby. There will be a countdown clock to when the next race starts (usually the time the previous race will take to finish).

- In this time players can opt to do a qualifying lap. If there is not enough time to do one lap your online raking time will be taken as the position.

- The game in the mean time is doing its connecting in the background, because players have queued it means the server doesn’t have to find them and create or order the race on the fly.

- When the clock time is up the game will go to the grid screen where it will wait a bit longer for other players to join, after about 10 seconds it will go to the race regardless. It will never start a race with 1 player only in the game.

The benefits of this system are.

- A simpler information screen will help find what they want to play and what car they need a lot quicker.

- The players come to the server not the other way round, they organize the race rather than the server having to search and create races as it goes which means less waiting for an error!

- A Lobby means that the likely hood of the full grid is higher because people will fill up the spaces. You can qualify whilst you wait with helps kill the time and gets you a better spot.

- A countdown clock means that people can turn to watch TV, make a cup of tea, eat a 4 course dinner whilst they wait and they know the time, they won’t come back to find the race has started and there car has slammed into the wall (many times I have seen the race start with cars adrift).

- Now with this system it may seem a lot longer but by having an ordered queuing structure you will have a fuller grid, less annoyances and a lot more fun.

Of course you could also have all the private rooms stuff that PD will probably do anyway.

If you can’t imagine what this would look like think about how FPS online screens are structured, like GRAW2 for example…

What worries me is that PD are going to just tweak it a bit but leave the overall style of the interface the same and it may even be like this in the full game which would be tragic!

It’s a bit wordy but what do you think of this proposal?

Robin

 

[nasanu]

All PD needs to do is to learn from one of the great many xbox live racers from the past 5 years. How to setup an online interface is well established, PD simply chose to ignore it.

 

[The--Beast]

The Toca 3 online setup on the ps2 was good and I hear Forza 2 is good as well although I haven't seen it my self.

I'm hoping the events are only half of the online system.The other half been something like Toca3 where you see a list of community hosted servers and the ability to create your own server and controlling all the options. If this or something similar is not incorporated or at least coming in the future my only hope left for a sim on the ps3 is Ferrari Challenge .

 

[J-PaP]

replies about your points on the current system

1. how far away from the screen do you sit? i'm about 1.5 meters away and can clearly see which car is which.

2. i think the helmet clearly shows what difficulty level the race is. again i havent read anywhere where it says which 1 is which but you can clearly tell they are different.

3. i'm guessing because not everybody has a hdtv. i bet on a crt outputting 576i the online menu is most likely full screen. if its not then you have a point

4. i dont think theres anything too bad about it. it shows something is happening and i think the japanese words do change and mean something. so theres more to it than just a bar.

5. it seems to connect you in the order you joined. if you are on your own it means all the lobbys are full so made one and others will join. yes it takes time but its normal...

6. thats a ping issue. we're playing on servers halfway across the globe. ive found that games go from 100% smooth, to "scalextric style" on a lower ping then smoke everywhere random racing on a bad ping


about your new system

i agree they need to change the way races work. however if you allow users to choose any track and any class you get too many combinations and then not enough people per race. it might work better when gt5 is global but atm it would probably lead to empty races and not out of any error. the car selection screen would be better to come later in the race selection process but if you start introducing more options post chosing an event its more likely the server you chose would be full if you are to chose a specific race rather than be randomly put into one as pd does atm.

the idea about a qualifying lap is great but unless every driver is forced to do a qualifying lap then nobody will have time to finish a lap or one -two people will have time to do a lap and force others who dont have time to do a lap to wait for over a minute at least which adds more lag than there is atm.

either way i still think pd is just using this set up atm to see if it all actually works hence it is all so simplified. as you can see even from the offline way the game works it is totally different from what a full release gt game is. and its been like that for all the prologue games.

 

[PopIsDeadUK]

As long as people realise we are BETA testers, its all good.

Nice post, with some nice thoughts.

 

[fasj6418]

when asked by reporters if he had ever played other racing sims, kaz said that he never played any other racing game. that he only needed real life to be his inspiration.

well, enter online. there's no real life to tell them how its supposed to work and it's clear that they don't know what other games are doing.

i like the idea of having specific races made by PD, that helps centralize, but they need to add the option for private rooms and just regular pick your car/track options.

they could have a timer, like dirt. they could have voice chat, like so many games. qualify, like F1 CE. we also need stat tracking, deep and meaningful like NBA 2K, so we could know how many wins and losses our oponents have, if they quit often, if they get penalized often, you know, important stuff for online play.

they technichal issues i expect them to be ironed out, and even tough i know i'm participating in a beta program, i'm afraid we end up with "tweaks" instead of a remodeled online mode. there's good stuff, there's bad stuff, and we can see judging by the updates that PD is aware of the problems.

best we can do is discuss, come up with ideas and hope that PD listens.

 

[The-BNA]

As long as people realise we are BETA testers, its all good.

Nice post, with some nice thoughts.

Yes I agree. As soon as it becomes complaints it's just annoying, cause it's pretty clear PD did not focus on the interface first time around, which is something they'll do in an update. I'm 98 % sure about that 💡

 

[thesuperfunk]

i like the idea of having specific races made by PD, that helps centralize, but they need to add the option for private rooms and just regular pick your car/track options.

this will no doubt make it into the full game or maybe even as an update to prologue ... it's just a matter of time.

 

[RC45]

Has anyone considered that GT5P is aimed at the Japanes market, and that the onscreen Japanese text probably answers all the silly and pointless complaints, quesitons and jabs being brought up -- just a thought

Not only that, the little icons ar eperfect - to anyone who has a legend as to what they are, and considering no-one here has one whats the problem?

Has anyone bothered to have the News seciton translated - there may be very useful bit so finformaiotn the english readers are missing

By the time the retail product comes ou , the instruciotn manual will have a legend as to what all the icons mean, where to go and what to expect - in the mean time, quit yer whining - you're beginning to sound like the French hehe

 

[The-BNA]

Not only that, the little icons ar eperfect - to anyone who has a legend as to what they are, and considering no-one here has one whats the problem?

That's just stupid. Then all icons in the world are perfect to anyone who has a legend. It's so easy to create icons that don't confuse even without reading the manual, the fact that they have not done that is not something to defend.

 

[RC45]

That's just stupid. Then all icons in the world are perfect to anyone who has a legend. It's so easy to create icons that don't confuse even without reading the manual, the fact that they have not done that is not something to defend.

And you have I take it read all the Japanese text alongside each race icon correct?

Has it occured to anyone that this online test is NOT directed at english speakers - but rather at the Japanes market?

So - again - if you have read everything and still have no idea whats going on, then you have grounds to complain - until then you don't

The Japanese speaking and reading folks don't seem to be having the problems understanding the online interface the english readers/speakers do - might that not explain anything?

Did anyone bother the read the little box on the BD they purchased For Japanese Market Only.

 

[The-BNA]

Why make icons that require text, when you can make some that don't? The only one that could be hard is the icons for how full the grid for a given event is at the time.

I realize the game is for the Japanese market, and I wouldn't really complain about icons that can be understood with some text somewhere else on the screen, but to say that they're perfect...

 

[kingcars]

Whil RC45 has a great point, the sign of a great interface is that the user does not have to read a manual or legend to use it. Everything should be intuitive and clear, with no need to be clarified. Great interfaces are able to do that.

 

[The-BNA]

Exactly!

 

[RC45]

Whil RC45 has a great point, the sign of a great interface is that the user does not have to read a manual or legend to use it. Everything should be intuitive and clear, with no need to be clarified. Great interfaces are able to do that.

This is true... however, have you ever known a GT franchise interface to be naturally intuitive? They have always required one to play around, read some text, recognise some common icons, check in the manual - then suddenly it all clicks and you realize whats going on - and yo uare off

All I am getting at is I would wait for the english translated interface to show up before I complained, that's all.

I mean, if after we RTFM and we still don't understand it - then sure, complain away, but you better take a number - because I will be at the head of that complaint queue

 

[The-BNA]

The only thing I don't understand with Gran Turismo, is something that I could never find in the manual. What's the little red + and a number that comes up when you need to change gear?

 

[kingcars]

I've never had issue with GT's interfaces. Hopefully once we get an English version, we'll smack ourselves for being so stupid .

@BNA - I think that's the gear the game recommends for wherever youre at on the track

 

[ontologicalshoc]

Here's a simple suggestion: autosave after online races so I don't have to exit to the main menu to do it (or risk losing all my credits).

 

[Tenacious D]

I actually prefer first come first placed ordering over some kind of qualification system. The reason being, real life races work well that way because the races are usually extremely long, and the environment of the long race and it's hazards (damage and such) are much different from the short track day set up that GT5/Prologue gives us.

If qualifications are used, almost or all races will consist of a few leaders that simply wave bye and shoot to victory, leaving the rest of the pack with no hope of ever seeing a winning finish. In fact that might encourage more first turn ramming from frustrated players.

I don't want to deny it as an option, since leagues and clans will no doubt want that kind of thing, but I do think that a good number of public servers should be placed by order of arrival to give even the weenies a chance. I'd also think some of the experts would like the challenge. I actually like being back in the grid, especially since the way online works now, that first turn becomes a demolition derby.

 

[Robin]

.

 

[nickg07]

online lobby's, private games etc that is whats needed. i really think that GT5 online could be the biggest driving thing ever...

 

[Robin]

1. how far away from the screen do you sit? i'm about 1.5 meters away and can clearly see which car is which.

2. i think the helmet clearly shows what difficulty level the race is. again i havent read anywhere where it says which 1 is which but you can clearly tell they are different.

3. i'm guessing because not everybody has a hdtv. i bet on a crt outputting 576i the online menu is most likely full screen. if its not then you have a point

4. i dont think theres anything too bad about it. it shows something is happening and i think the japanese words do change and mean something. so theres more to it than just a bar.

5. it seems to connect you in the order you joined. if you are on your own it means all the lobbys are full so made one and others will join. yes it takes time but its normal...

6. thats a ping issue. we're playing on servers halfway across the globe. ive found that games go from 100% smooth, to "scalextric style" on a lower ping then smoke everywhere random racing on a bad ping

1. About the same as you, if not a bit further.. Yes your right im on a 21" SD-TV.

2. See, thats why the icons are confusing, that you feel the need to find out what they mean, I will come back to that later..

3. No the online menu is not full scren in SD which is why everything looks to small and the icons are a blur, still, it doesn't need to be this small even in HD (ive seen it in HD also).

4. Yes the Japaniese will probably be telling me something I don't understand but the whole point of things nowadays and something which PD is very good at is intuitiveness.

5. I hate always starting at the bottom of the grid because I joined from the UK hence probably always last to connect... no one wants to race on their own although a 2 cars race once was quite fun.

6. I never thought about that, good point!

about your new system

Ive read your feedback and you make very good points. After all it is a demo so there will be things that are a bit off but still PD could have done a much better first effort at online seeing as some PSN demos have better online play and they are free!

As long as people realise we are BETA testers, its all good.

Nice post, with some nice thoughts.

Thanks 👍

That's just stupid. Then all icons in the world are perfect to anyone who has a legend. It's so easy to create icons that don't confuse even without reading the manual, the fact that they have not done that is not something to defend.

I have to agree with The BNA on this because you should never NEED a manual or legend to figure out things, even maps are designed so that you can look at it and guess what the icon is trying to warn off (like steep slopes). Yes its for Japan and they will know that chevron icon means learner but still there was really no need to go so in detail on something which is trying to convey basic info!

Anyway here are the two examples below, you seriously cannot deny that the traffic light one I bashed up is easier to understand!

 

[Rocket Punch]

+rep for the shear amount of typing.

I think we now have more posts and threads about menus and hand animations than anything else (reverse light is a close third). I think we should start a new discussion direction on operable windows and in car CD changer.

The more important stuff like the broken online penalty system can wait.

 

[The-BNA]

What the hell are you talking about, working heated seats are far more important!

 

[fasj6418]

Anyway here are the two examples below, you seriously cannot deny that the traffic light one I bashed up is easier to understand!

just looking at the PD screens it looks like:

first helmet - 60's, vintage racing.
second helmet - 80's, retro racing
third helmet - 2000's modern racing

like, judging by the helmet styles.

i know this is nitpicking and stuff, but robin has a point. some of the things they are using could be simplified. all we're doing right now is giving them constructive feedback, i don't see this as a "complain".

we're just saying what's good and what's bad.

i'll come back with a more elaborate post later:tup:

 

[J-PaP]

personally i don't see how green/yellow/red in any way shows easy medium hard. all i see is traffic lights. really the only way you are going to be clear on such info is to have the actual words easy medium hard. i can see the angle pd is taking though with their difficulty icons. each helmet dictates a level of motorsport where the first helmet is clearly what would be allowed for amateur racing whereas the final helmet seems to show a proper helmet with designs as most racers have.

 

[RC45]

Yes its for Japan and they will know that chevron icon means learner but still there was really no need to go so in detail on something which is trying to convey basic info!

I am just guessing here, but you have not had much exposure to the Japanese fascination with minute details then?

I actually enjoy these types of details. Take a tour of some Japanese websites about model building or car tuning or bike restoration etc - you will be overwhelmed with the apparent minutia - so culturally these detailed icons make perfect sense.

Again, this is the Japanese release of the game, not the culturally lazy western version

Anyway here are the two examples below, you seriously cannot deny that the traffic light one I bashed up is easier to understand!

Not really - its too simplistic and does not do justice to the rest od the level of detail that has gone intp the entire platform.

These little touches, like icons loading screens etc - are full of superfluous detail - but that is what makes the GT Franchise great - it is NOT a commitee focus group compromise, it is Kaz's game platform - period

I hop ehtey don't change the great detail touches visible everywhere.

 

[nasanu]

Anyway here are the two examples below, you seriously cannot deny that the traffic light one I bashed up is easier to understand!

To me it seems like I can enter the first race fine, but there might be some problems with the second and I should not even try the last (red means stop).

 

[ChadSpeed]

All PD needs to do is to learn from one of the great many xbox live racers from the past 5 years. How to setup an online interface is well established, PD simply chose to ignore it.

Well said. The other problem that may be unique to players of 360 and PS3 is the huge difference in online play and service. If you only own a PS3 than you have a free online service and are probably pretty happy with it, but if you have Xbox Live than you know that it could be so much, and much easier. I hope someone at PD will make sure that the online is as good and well thought out as the other current games that are online on both the PS3 and 360. That's the replayability factor for a game, once you beaten the single player, at least a big part of it.

 

[zaptruder]

There are quite a significant number of problems with the GT online interface.

I quite love the idea of been able to do practice laps or qualifiers while waiting for other players though.

That said... I'd like a much more comprehensive leaderboard in GT. At the very least meet the functionality that's already in Forza 2; the ability to see times close by, as well as the best times, and especially sort by friends list times.

To add to that kinda functionality; the ability to sort via car, track, tyres is great... but they do need an 'all' function for the car and tyres.
Most importantly; they should show you a bell curve of the overall player spread; show you how well you perform relative to the userbase. This kind of information is most handy, especially when you're comparing your times against thousands if not tens of thousands of other players (as will be the case in the full release).

Of course, other inadequacies that need to be urgently addressed is the ability to invite friends into races, and of course the lag; which can vary from ok to terrible. The way they sort the race order also needs to change (they sort it off lag; I know, because I've started last, every single time).