A Sports Car For a First Car?

  • Thread starter Thread starter LeadFootLiam
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Can I put my question in here? I'm 14, and looking at either a stock 89-93 MX5 or a RenaultSport Clio. I am planning on occasional trackdays, but I need it cheap to buy and run. Are these good plans?
Every track day I've attended in the UK has required you to hold a full UK driving licence, as such at 14 you are pretty much out of luck.

Now you may mean something other than a track day...........
 
Every track day I've attended in the UK has required you to hold a full UK driving licence, as such at 14 you are pretty much out of luck.

Now you may mean something other than a track day...........
I mean when I can drive in 3 years' time, hence why we're talking about first cars :lol:
 
I guess you need someone to hold your hand through it.

You told Liam he should stop convincing people he's a qualified driver. Not in terms of experience he's not just as you aren't. You then decided to intend qualified by what the govt. defines it as, which Toronado explained nicely doesn't mean anything in the US. A qualified driver for a M3 is someone with years of experience, something Liam isn't, just as I'm not qualified to buy a GT3 & start tracking it without any sort of experience behind such a car.

Continuing to ignore the rest of my post shows me you're still too young to understand it either.

Why do you keep comparing the WRX to high powered RWD sports cars? He isn't going to be driving The Caparo T1, hes going to be driving a AWD 4 cylinder.

This thread is getting more and more ridiculous...
 
Remember: A driving licence is merely a certificate that says you're now allowed to practice without adult supervision.
I mean when I can drive in 3 years' time, hence why we're talking about first cars :lol:
MX-5s are cheap to buy (they're bottoming out now, so get one while you can) and run, but I think you forget about insuring one.
 
I mean when I can drive in 3 years' time, hence why we're talking about first cars :lol:
Then you should have been a little clearer (given that you can have a first car before you can hold a licence).
 
MX-5s are cheap to buy (they're bottoming out now, so get one while you can) and run, but I think you forget about insuring one.
Sorry, but read the whole previous page. Insurance is all we've been talking about, and i've explained my situation.
Then you should have been a little clearer (given that you can have a first car before you can hold a licence).
It's in the thread title.
 
Sorry, but read the whole previous page. Insurance is all we've been talking about, and i've explained my situation.
I did. Didn't see anywhere where you'd got a quote for the future 17 year old you for a Mk1 MX-5. In my experience, as an MX-5 owner, you can forget about insuring a Mk1 MX-5 at 17 in the UK.

To put it another way, if we both had a £3k pot to buy and insure a Mk1 MX-5, I could buy and insure two of them in pretty good nick (in fact I could buy and insure two identical to the one we already bought and insured) because I'm very old. I'd be surprised if you could buy and insure one, unless you managed to find one in a scrappy with a blown engine and not recorded as Cat D for £150. Which is a good way of learning some mechanical skills too.
 
I said that it's been discussed within my family, and they're open to quotes that aren't ridiculous. I think a Clio will be my choice though, because it's probably cheaper.
 
It's in the thread title.
A thread you didn't start and could have been posting off-topic in.

A word of advise, rein the attitude back in a little, in particular when people are being polite to you.
 
A thread you didn't start and could have been posting off-topic.
True, true, a lot of these threads go to pot quickly. I don't mean to insult or be rude to mods at any time though.
 
You're going to have to define "ridiculous" - because I think you're going to end up north of £3k at any mainstream insurer that gives you any sort of reasonable service. You might nudge underneath it, just, at Screwem & Hard's Honest Insurance Company (or Adrian Flux), with a big enough excess.

I have a fictional 17 year old I use for insurance comparison purposes. I recall his best ever quote was something like £400 on a brand new Citroen C1 and as the cars got older and cheaper so the premiums accelerated into the stratosphere - £2k for the newest possible Saxo, £4k for a Mk3 Fiesta and suchlike.
 
How does that even make sense? :lol:
It makes perfect sense. Insurance is a bet on how likely you are to have an accident. The insurers set the ante based on the odds they'll lose and have to pay you. Being a young (male) driver increases the likelihood they'll lose and have to pay you.

But it's also a bet on how big the accident will be - and the insurers set the ante based on the odds that when they lose, they lose big. Being in an up-to-date car decreases the likelihood that when you crash, you die or have serious injuries requiring lengthy recuperation or loss of body parts. That crap's expensive - much more expensive than a brand new car in most circumstances. You're talking a quarter million or so for a loss of life, so for a car with four kids in it (and kids like to drive around in packs) it can easily run you into millions.

A kid driving a Mk3 Ford Fiesta will be pate after a 55mph collision a kid in a modern, 5-star car can walk away from with a sore neck. So what's more risky to the insurer, and thus attracting a bigger premium as a result of the increased risk - a £400 Fiesta or an £8k Citroen?
 
Can I put my question in here? I'm 14, and looking at either a stock 89-93 MX5 or a RenaultSport Clio. I am planning on occasional trackdays, but I need it cheap to buy and run. Are these good plans?
Don't you need a driving licence for trackdays? Nevermind, I just read Scaff's posts and I got my answer.
I race RC cars, that's a proper money pit. I want to do the Ginetta Junior Scholarship this year, I guess i'll learn the cost of real track driving then.
You mean radio controlled cars, right?
 
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Why do you keep comparing the WRX to high powered RWD sports cars? He isn't going to be driving The Caparo T1, hes going to be driving a AWD 4 cylinder.

This thread is getting more and more ridiculous...
It's not the cars being compared, it's the lack of experience. Maybe when you're able to drink a beer legally, your brain will be able to comprehend.
 
Why is this thread still up? The OP didn't want several pages of back and forth quarreling. Just drop it, an agreement will never be reached.
 
@hsv010 GET A MIATA. the weight balance is perfect, steering is precise, and it handles like a go kart. If your planning on doing track days, you will have more fun in the Miata then you will in the Clio. Plus the Miata is easy to work on and great in gas
 
@hsv010 GET A MIATA. the weight balance is perfect, steering is precise, and it handles like a go kart. If your planning on doing track days, you will have more fun in the Miata then you will in the Clio. Plus the Miata is easy to work on and great in gas

It was already stated that Miatas are prohibitively expensive to insure, and that's assuming you've found a company who will bother giving you a quote...

MX-5s are cheap to buy (they're bottoming out now, so get one while you can) and run, but I think you forget about insuring one.
I did. Didn't see anywhere where you'd got a quote for the future 17 year old you for a Mk1 MX-5. In my experience, as an MX-5 owner, you can forget about insuring a Mk1 MX-5 at 17 in the UK.
 
Why is this thread still up? The OP didn't want several pages of back and forth quarreling. Just drop it, an agreement will never be reached.

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@hsv010 GET A MIATA. the weight balance is perfect, steering is precise, and it handles like a go kart. If your planning on doing track days, you will have more fun in the Miata then you will in the Clio. Plus the Miata is easy to work on and great in gas
Is your opinion based on ownership experience or through GT6?
 
An NB MX-5 cost $200 USD a month in insurance for me. In comparison it costs $300 USD for my parents to get insurance for a Mazdaspeed Miata, Fiat 500 Abarth, BMW 330i ZHP, and NA 300ZX. Getting insurance for an MX-5 Miata at 16/17 is crazy.
 
You don't need ownership experience to know that the Miata is one of the best cheap sports cars you can buy.
Possibly - but you made it sounds like you had a few solid years of ownership experience, which is seems you do not. How would you know it's easy to work on for example. How do you know the steering is so good - Chris Harris found the steering less than precise on the one he drove, and that was semi prepared for track, and he has a bit more of a basis of comparison.

I hate it when people pass their opinions off as anything more than that.
 
I understand that there's a language barrier, so I'll try my best to correct misconceptions where there may be any. You may already know some of what I said in Dutch, but just not expressed correctly in English; in which case, I apologize. Note that I am (and has been) very specifically speaking about oversteering not due to increasing engine output (putting your foot to the accelerator pedal).

If you have a car with 50/50 AWD, the force on the tires are distributed 25% on each of the 4 wheels, when a 50/50 AWD is driving in a straight line. With a FWD or a RWD, the forces on the tires are ditributed over only two wheels.

With "forces" I mean the force applied from the engine power.

With that last caveat, I guess that's a fair generalization. I think something like "engine forces" will be a better term because just "forces" is too general. Technically gravity is exerting a downward force and the road is exerting a normal force that is equal and opposite of gravity (assuming the road is flat). Just because the two forces don't cancel each other out does not mean that they don't exist. There are more forces acting upon a tire than just forces due to engine output.

As I said, the speed of a WRX in a corner is higher without losing grip than with a FWD/RWS.

Why? (Let me give you a hint, if two cars are identical in every way other than one is 2WD and the other is 4WD, then the maximum force that a tire can handle without sliding is the same)

In that case, because the speed is higher, the forces are higher and you will exceed the sideway forces a tire can handle faster than you think.

It's really not the speed that is higher that's causing the forces to be higher. It's that a higher speed (vector-less, direction-less) causes a higher acceleration in order to maintain that speed, thus the higher acceleration that is causing a higher force.

If you say that changing larger velocity causes a larger force, then that is correct, as the change in velocity (directioned vector) is acceleration.

Btw, physics wise, acceleration is a vector with a direction. If I'm traveling straight at 100kph, then turn left 90 degrees while maintaining 100kph, then keep traveling left at 100kph, I would have accelerated, and my velocity would have changed, but my speed wouldn't have.

However, with that said, the whole thing is based on the premise that the WRX will automatically be able to go through a corner faster, which isn't necessarily true.

Don't forget that in my previous posts, I mentioned shifting the weight of the car onto the front tires, which makes the rear tires lose grip even faster.

True.

So, you can definitely oversteer a WRX easily, as long as the speed is high enough (that was my argument in previous post ==> showing off to friend etc.... ).

Yup again. No argument about this.

Let's take one wheel of the front suspension for instance. Driving straight forward, there is only one force on the tire.

Only one net force. There are multiple forces acting on the tire, which aren't too important when traveling at a constant velocity, but they do get very important very quickly as soon as you accelerate.

A force in a straight line. If you turn a secondary sideway force is applied to the tire. If the sideway force exceeds the straight forward force and the tire isn't designed to cope with this sideway force, this tire will lose grip and you have understeer.

I'm not 100% sure if you are saying what you said up there, but ummm...

So if you turn, a "sideway force" is indeed added, but it's the sum of the "sideway" and "straight forward" force that matters. If the sum of the two forces exceed the tire's maximum static friction (the tire's grip capabilities), then the tire will start to slip.

When presented with two forces that are at 90 degrees to each other, then you can sum them up by essentially drawing a diagonal across the rectangle that the force vectors makes. In real life, that's not necessarily the case as force vectors may not necessarily be at right angles to each other, but we'll simplify it so that they are.

If the forces are applied 25% on each wheel, it takes longer for the forces to exceed the forces a tire can handle thus making a 50/50 4WD more grippy than a FWD or RWD with all the engine power on only two tires instead of 4 tires.

It's not that a 4WD car is "grippier" than a 2WD car. The two have the same amount of grip at the tires. The maximum amount of static friction a tire has does not change whether it is 2WD or 4WD. It is that a 4WD car can put a greater amount of power to the ground when accelerating out of the corner without slipping than a 2WD car because as you said, the forces are distributed to four wheels instead of two.

But then this is untrue during lift off oversteer as there's no engine power at that time (technically there's engine braking, but let's ignore its effects for now).

The above example is theoretical and not entirely correct because I didn't mention the mechanics of a differential, the suspension in general etc... .
I don't know anything about the mechanic's and electronic's of a car. :guilty:

Those don't matter. It only matters that we assume two cars are exactly identical except one is 2WD and the other is 4WD. This doesn't happen in the real world, so the practical effects may be slightly different, but as a thought process, one must assume that the only difference is the number of drive wheels, otherwise, one would be unable to attribute what caused the difference in vehicle behavior.


@Doog In the states do you have to be a legal adult to buy a car under your name, over here you don't.

Yes, in the US, you must be a legal adult (or be an emancipated minor) to own a car in your name, as with any other property. When you're not a legal adult, technically everything of yours is owned by your parent(s)/legal guardian(s).

I highly doubt that property can be owned by a non-legal adult in Canada.
 
One of the reasons I want a Renault is so I can walk around with all this stuff:
CategoryRenaultsportRange.jpg
 
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