A Vector tuning theory for drift cars

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The__Ghost__Z
Part of my tuning involves using mathematics to aim tires properly with toe and camber angles. Here I will explain the theory behind it. You'll need to have already underderstood a vast majority of tuning to get this, and some linear algebra/calculus, but bear with me if you can. I would also like to use this as a promotional for my tuning garage, to demonstrate tuning skill.

Ghost Tuning Garage

Consider each tire as having a vector. This vector is comprised of the values for rotational speed and direction. For example, a car traveling at, say, 30 MPH has a rotational speed under the front tires of 30mph, and the rear tires at 30mph. Since GT5 does not give us wheel diameters (and rim diameters are different than wheel diameters) we cannot find RPM measurements at the wheels, but that is unimportant.

As a car turns, the angle by which it is traveling relative to the tangent line of the corner changes as well. At low speeds, the car travels as a tangent line to the driving line would, so at apex both the driving line and inside corner, have the same tangent line.

TangentLine_1000.gif


However, you have to remember, that is NOT the angle of the car. That is the angle of the path of travel. The car will be going in that direction when it reaches that point (P). The tires however, will not be pointed in that direction.

Why?

Two reasons. The first is that the car is on a continuum, so the tires need to be pointed in the direction of its ongoing path of travel, not the instantaneous one (which is what that line represents), the second is that the tires actually travel at a small slip angle to their path of travel.

So what ultimately determines that path of travel? Wheel Vectors.

A car has the following wheels:

[Value 1, Value 2]
[30, 0] FR
[30, 0] FL
[30, 0] RR
[30, 0] RL

These wheels are all traveling at 30 mph, with a 0 angle deviation from the tangent line. In other words, the car is traveling straight on a straight road.

As the corner comes up, the car starts to turn. The angle of the front two wheels change (Value 2), the inside one more than the outside to maintain the arc, and try to follow the tangent line. The outside wheel's rotational speed (Value 1) rises and the inside wheel's rotational speed lowers.

The rear wheels, because they do not turn, change rotational speed as well. However, if they cannot change rotation speed quick enough (say, they have an LSD that prevents deceleration, or an engine giving them power that keeps them spinning faster than the angle they are asked to go) then in order for them to travel along the same path as the car, they must slip at a higher angle. We have started the drift.

Now what is interesting is that the new path of the car while drifting is figured by the same basic calculations as before. Except that instead of the wheels being a rectangle that is tangent to the driving line, it is now a diamond that is tangent to the driving line. This means that while the vectors of tire speed and angle determining the path of the car (and how fast) they are in a new shape.

But these are not really 2 dimensional vectors. They are 3 dimensional vectors. Tire Grip is the last one, which is counteracting a large vector of cornering force so the car can maintain the equilibrium in the other two dimensions (speed, angle) if the tires cannot counteract that force, a new equilibrium (a change in angle, aka understeer, or a change in speed) is necessary for the car to maintain its equilibrium.

What is interesting is that the tires grip is not evenly distributed, and additionally, increases almost proportionally as weight over the tire goes up, so you can actually calculate the path of the car using vectors like these:

[V1, V2, V3] FR
[V1, V2, V3] FL
[V1, V2, V3] RR
[V1, V2, V3] RL

Where V1 is the speed of the tire, V2 is the angle relative to the tangent line of the driving line, and V3 is weight over the tire. The maximum cornering speed for a given angle will be found when the tire's relative angels (adjustable by toe) rotational speed (adjusted by LSD and driver input) and grip (adjusted by suspension and driver input) are all in harmony.

This is one of many mathematical models I use to tune with, and it is the one I am most proud of for its creation. Precise calculations are not here because I like to preserve my method, but I see no reason not to, especially after some time now, to share this with the community. If you like the concept or want to know more, you can check out my newly opened tuning garage, here:

Ghost Tuning Garage
 
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I think I just got mind f:censored:d. I don't really understand much of it. Not that I read it dot by dot but isn't this a bit too much for a video game? I mean you even added some algebra on it. :ill:
 
A very interesting read to be sure. I'm looking forward to seeing your theory put to work in "Reality"

Not that I read it dot by dot but isn't this a bit too much for a video game? 💡 I mean you even added some algebra on it. :ill:

I don't understand; why should one not apply knowledge and logic to a sport, regardless of the realm it is being partaken in?
Limiting yourself just "Because it's just a video game" seems nonsensical to me.

I can't speak for ghost but everything I do in GT5 is based on my real life study - Now that I've given up my car to live in an apartment with my partner that has become all the more prominent in my life.
 
I think I just got mind f:censored:d. I don't really understand much of it. Not that I read it dot by dot but isn't this a bit too much for a video game? I mean you even added some algebra on it. :ill:

Work hard, play hard.
 
Maybe it depends in the person. I've come to the conclusion that GT5 is like a rest of my other real life activities, where I can have fun and don't care about it. Basic KDF I don't take it serious because its simply a videogame. I drift because I have fun doing it. Its a hobby. Now however you guys want to spend doing in it and the amount of seriousness you input is variant to who you are, the time you spend on it, how busy you are ect.

After reading it a bit more carefully ot is a pretty interesting tunning base but again, in my opinion considering the busy life I have, its just a game for me.
 
Maybe it depends in the person. I've come to the conclusion that GT5 is like a rest of my other real life activities, where I can have fun and don't care about it. Basic KDF I don't take it serious because its simply a videogame. I drift because I have fun doing it. Its a hobby. Now however you guys want to spend doing in it and the amount of seriousness you input is variant to who you are, the time you spend on it, how busy you are ect.

After reading it a bit more carefully ot is a pretty interesting tunning base but again, in my opinion considering the busy life I have, its just a game for me.

Just because I put serious work into drifting - doesn't mean it's not fun or relaxing for me.. I'm not sure how you make that leap of logic.
 
Maybe it depends in the person. I've come to the conclusion that GT5 is like a rest of my other real life activities, where I can have fun and don't care about it. Basic KDF I don't take it serious because its simply a videogame. I drift because I have fun doing it. Its a hobby. Now however you guys want to spend doing in it and the amount of seriousness you input is variant to who you are, the time you spend on it, how busy you are ect.

After reading it a bit more carefully ot is a pretty interesting tunning base but again, in my opinion considering the busy life I have, its just a game for me.

I guess it isn't to say that I've spend hours upon hours on this game a week, I really don't, it has taken me years of occasional, casual playing to get to this point. In fact, this tuning actually lets me get better results with less time put in, because I can find optimal values for any car, at any angle, at any speed to maximize grip. This theory alone won't do it, but in combination with several other formulas, it can. This lets me do in thirty minutes what would otherwise be several hours of tuning, and best of all, its mostly theory that can be applied to real life driving.
 
I guess it isn't to say that I've spend hours upon hours on this game a week, I really don't, it has taken me years of occasional, casual playing to get to this point. In fact, this tuning actually lets me get better results with less time put in, because I can find optimal values for any car, at any angle, at any speed to maximize grip. This theory alone won't do it, but in combination with several other formulas, it can. This lets me do in thirty minutes what would otherwise be several hours of tuning, and best of all, its mostly theory that can be applied to real life driving.

#Dedication

@Husky, Did I ever said you are not able to have fun as you take the game serious???
 
where I can have fun and don't care about it.

I don't take it serious because its simply a videogame. I drift because I have fun doing it. Its a hobby.

While you never outright said anything like that, your wording certainly heavily implies that because I take drifting seriously and put real effort into the sport that it's no longer fun and relaxing :lol:
 
While you never outright said anything like that, your wording certainly heavily implies that because I take drifting seriously and put real effort into the sport that it's no longer fun and relaxing :lol:

Did you checked that one letter word that is part of the sentence you quoted? "I" makes a huge difference. :lol: Thats what GT5 is for me. I also clearly started my post with "It depends on the person"

Drifting is fun and relaxing. Tuning is the subject here.
 
Did you checked that one letter word that is part of the sentence you quoted? "I" makes a huge difference. :lol: Thats what GT5 is for me. I also clearly started my post with "It depends on the person"

Drifting is fun and relaxing. Tuning is the subject here.

No I did read that 👍 however, going on what you said - "I" does infact make a huge difference; in this sense it makes it appear that you think my thought process is different.

Wording makes all the difference :lol:
 
No I did read that 👍 however, going on what you said - "I" does infact make a huge difference; in this sense it makes it appear that you think my thought process is different.

Wording makes all the difference :lol:

It looked like it, after all you were accussing me of saying something I didn't. Ohwell, its clear now I suppose. :)👍
 
Another post by you like a novel about drift and tune theorys. I don't see how it is very useful or worth the effort not even talking about that this is a videogame, that significantly lacks in realism.

Can't hold myself back to ask you if you are an engineer or something similar? Otherwise... sorry but what the hell makes you spend so much time on something so irrelevant?
 
Quick question. You will need to calculate the RPM of the tires for this to work. Not impossible with a very good reading on the RPM gauge (then figure out the gears). But how would you get the COF of a tire in GT5?

And how would you get the LSD numbers? Or the steering angle?
 
The amount of problems with the GT5 physics and how the settings affect how a car handles, it's a bit of waste applying this much real life knowledge to a game that could react very differently to real life inputs.
 
Not to be a bad person but I study mechanical engineering and I really think it's a waste of time because it is a game, i use a guide and proven in real-drifting if Gran Turismo is a simulator should work, the truth is that to me it has worked quite well I can say that is very real.

I use a g27 with invert pedals (h-shifter and clutch always) and my level in drift is 7 (scale from 0 to 10)

Mike Kojima u are a pro!

Part1: http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_articles/id/2210/basic-drift-chassis-setup-part-1.aspx
I especially use the recommended values ​​coilovers for drifting by trademark like bc racing, stance suspension, megan racing, etc. example: S-chassis (front 8kg/rear 6kg) - '10 Camaro (8kg front/10kg rear) - Supra mk4 (14kg front/8kg rear)

Part2: http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_articles/id/2259/basic-drift-chassis-setup-part-2.aspx
Sway Bars front and rear (5 to 7)
my settings always (always) 5,60,60

Part3: http://www.motoiq.com/magazine_articles/id/2382/basic-drift-chassis-setup-part-3.aspx
my alignments - camber front (3-4) rear (0) - toe front (-0.10 to -0.20) rear (0.00)
 
Interesting, except if you're traveling at 30 mph, the speed where the tire meets the road is 0 mph and the top of the tire is at 60 mph.
 
From what i read. The point he's trying to make... is nothing. And a tangent involves a straight line. So if you were talking about the "tangent" of the cars line relative to the corner or the driving line, it's not actually a tangent if you are turning around a corner. You would have to stop at the top of the corner on the outside drive straight to the apex and continue in order to be an actual tangent. The tangent is the car itself being the straight line from bumper to bumper.

This would help
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Graph_of_sliding_derivative_line.gif

And there are also no grip values for any tyre on gt5 nor anyway to correctly determine those values.
 
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I think its actually easier to apply mathematics to GT5 than in real life, since it is simpler and has fewer factors you have to consider. Everything in here is modeled in GT5 (weight, tire direction, grip, speed) and are really simple variables, this is just using linear algebra and some calculus to figure out optimal numbers for cornering. So unless GT5 doesn't model, say weight or tire direction, which I doubt anyone can convince me of, it should work.

@carracerptp/LVracerGT: Speed of the wheel is a form RPM. They are interchangeable if you do the calculation knowing what the wheel's diameter. I mentioned this in the post, that I was using the speed of the wheel at its center as a moving point along a line. I should have clarified more that I was, since rotational speed of the tire is indeed different, but related, to the speed that the whole unit is going. Basically, put the GPS on the hubcap and clock its speed and direction that way to figure out the vector.

But I think quite a few of you seemed to have missed the point. I didn't talk a lot about calculating paths of travel or speeds because that is an entirely different discussion, but the basics were necessary. What I am emphasizing is using 2D vectors (speed and direction, and yes,

In other words, I should be able to guess what toe and camber is necessary for the largest contact patch and the closest vector of grip to the direction I want to go, for a car that travels at [number] degree angle higher than normal slip angles, and gets [number] grip coefficient. So that I can reach similarly higher speeds as angles increase by changing the settings. While drifting does reduce the total cornering speed, speed is lost slowest at the angle you want to drift at, and drops quicker leading up to and beyond, so that a car with a less optimal setup, at that angle, will not be able to follow the same path at the same speed.

@Drift-monkey: I am more than fully aware of this, and you might need to read my post again. If you calculate a tire's path of travel, its axis minus the slip angle is tangent to its path it goes at a given speed, just as the car is as well, since it is (in this model) comprised of four tires traveling four similar, but not identical, paths.
 
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Ghost you been here a while talking about setup....

Just post one.... I asked you for a chaser tune to beat mine or k1ngklick but never materialized :-/
 
Ghost you been here a while talking about setup....

Just post one.... I asked you for a chaser tune to beat mine or k1ngklick but never materialized :-/

This weekend my tuning garage will have a Datsun 510 for share on my account, as soon as I get time this evening to finish tuning it.

I'm considering putting up 1 car per month/2 weeks for share as a tuning demonstration while I do tunes for other people.

As for the chaser tune, I don't even remember that. It is possible I simply became too busy with stuff outside of GT5 to work on it at that time. Not to mention that it has been only recently that I've even opened up for offers to tune, limited as they are.

EDIT:

@MonsterGAUZ: Forgot a proper reply in my previous post, and got your post confused with someone elses. Like I said, work hard, play hard. I have more dedication to cars than it is healthy, Gran Turismo is just one way to get my fix.
 
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Ghost... Your write up is pretty decent, but I will just quote our old comrade Han...: "There's no 'wax on wax off' of drifting. You learn by doing it. The first drifters invented drifting out here in the mountains by feeling it. So feel it."
 
Gonales
Ghost... Your write up is pretty decent, but I will just quote our old comrade Han...: "There's no 'wax on wax off' of drifting. You learn by doing it. The first drifters invented drifting out here in the mountains by feeling it. So feel it."

Agreed, and awesome quote. I will give this a try ghost and see what I can get out of it. To be honest thought as the quote above suggests, just like any other motorsport in drifting you want the driver to be happy with how the car feels. A driver in a car that feels good to him will do better then a driver in a car that is setup to someone else's preference. I will provide feedback after I try that out sometime tomorrow.
 
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/perfect

Definition B, and maybe C.

If you know what you want you car to do, and it is possible, and you do it to the best extent, is that not perfect?

It's not a discussion I'm going to have here, but if a drift does what you need it to without fault, then it is, by all means, perfect. That is what I try to do.
it's all subjective... Your idea of "perfect" is not someone else's idea of perfect
 
it's all subjective... Your idea of "perfect" is not someone else's idea of perfect

So 'someone else' can set up their car to drift in the manner they consider perfect.

In the drifting world, we have several bases of comparison. Angle and Speed, Style, and Overall impression. If you do not want to get the most effect, if you do not want the best out of you and your drift car, then yes, maybe you do not want 'perfect'. But people who do not want that shouldn't be reading this thread, because this thread is about finding a method to approach it.

This tool allows you to tell me what you want that car to do, and if it is possible, I will tell you the setup that makes it able to do that with the highest possible performance, like any sport, provided you are skilled enough to use it.

Does that make more sense?

This tool is here, it is useful, and it works. If you want to argue why someone would use it, and not how, please do it somewhere else.
 
While I can appreciate the effort involved in determining a tuning path prior to even choosing the vehicle to be tuned, I would much rather do what I do already and purchase the bare minimum adjustable upgrades to set a baseline and gradually make changes as I find them necessary.
One of the particularly entertaining results of this method is seeing how my mood changed my driving style (because I use this method for all tuning) and how that in turn determined settings used. I actually have a pair of Z33s with identical upgrades and wildly different setups that lap Autumn Ring within one tenth of each other.
My main objection to the mathematical approach is that it can provoke a "my tune is perfect" mentality that can prevent the driver from adapting to different situations as they arise.
I accept that there are other methods and respect them when a genuine effort is made, I just wish others would take a similar stance rather than be categorically opposed to any view other than their own and not have the sense to keep quiet about it.
 
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So 'someone else' can set up their car to drift in the manner they consider perfect.

In the drifting world, we have several bases of comparison. Angle and Speed, Style, and Overall impression. If you do not want to get the most effect, if you do not want the best out of you and your drift car, then yes, maybe you do not want 'perfect'. But people who do not want that shouldn't be reading this thread, because this thread is about finding a method to approach it.

This tool allows you to tell me what you want that car to do, and if it is possible, I will tell you the setup that makes it able to do that with the highest possible performance, like any sport, provided you are skilled enough to use it.

Does that make more sense?

This tool is here, it is useful, and it works. If you want to argue why someone would use it, and not how, please do it somewhere else.
Like i said before ...your tune is not perfect. Stop advertising it to be.
 
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