A welcome surprise about slipstreaming

[baldgye]

The point with the Megane analogy is that the rapid spread of its use is a reflection of the sheer quantity of races and number of players vs. the rate at which PD apply a BOP means that given a choice or option, one outcome will become very dominant very quickly, and this the leads the community to get all antsy about it. And, this is something that is simply not comparable to real-world racing - there are not thousands upon thousands of races taking place between BOP adjustments.

Can't speak for the Gr.3 races, I've only done one Gr.3 daily out of a measly total of sixteen sport mode races (one was a N200? race, the rest have all been in Gr.4)... and in the Gr.3 race, about half the grid was 911's at the start, and the top 5 was 911's. I've no idea if this is still the case, but that race didn't strike me as much different to the Gr.4 situation with the Megane.

I understand the analogy, but the reason I don't think it's helpful is that the game was unbalanced, clearly. If GR3 was in the same situation, you'd see the same number of threads. Instead all I can remember there being (post launch) was one thread asking about the 911 GTR3, in which, most people concluded that it wasn't necessarily the fastest out right.

I think it would be fascinating for them to do from vehicle dynamics simulation standpoint, and it'd be somewhat representative of real-world championships that have tyre-wars... however, I don't believe that given the physics simulation limitations, putting additional variables in would do much for the game - I accept that in the real-world it can make a big difference, but in a limited physics simulation, it simply acts as one variable in a relatively simple equation that ends up having a predictable outcome quite quickly, thanks to the thousands of races taking place each day. From the game point of view, it becomes little more than a nuance, IMHO. With a more detailed tyre simulation model and handling, sure, there'd be more value, more again with a more detailed suspension model, even more again with a more detailed track model, yet more again with a different environmental effects model... ... but personally, and I'm sure others would disagree, whilst accelerated tyre wear has to be a thing, it's less about realism, and more about entertainment anyway (and I'm alright with that btw).

I don't disagree with this, but just because the physics model is relatively basic doesn't mean it would have little/no value.
I also don't think a 'tyre war' type series would be the only application. I think that if the game pushed the idea of tyres being different and having different characteristics, it would help people be better drivers, learn that braking zones aren't binary and that tyre wear is important and can be managed/helped.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

How so? How can you make things not equal and get rig of advantages/disadvantages?

I do know from RL track experience on two wheels that brand a "A" DOT race tire would be fully up to racing temp by turn 7 on a particular course while the brand "B" equivalent rubber compound would take a full lap to to reach the same initial level of grip.

Also brand "A" required a different rear suspension set up to prevent cold tearing from brand "B" and manufacturer recommended air pressures would be different as well. Over a race distance there was not a lot of difference in grip life of the two tires but there were definitely a difference in the feedback feeling between the two tires and some racers preferred one over the other.

Carcass construction and differences in stiffness of such has about as much to do with different brands of a tires behavior in a certain "class" of tires between tire manufacturers as does the difference in the actual comparable soft, medium and hard rubber compounds between the brands.

No doubt the degree of degradation you see will involve the tyre type and Tyre Wear setting.

Yes, actually the only unscientific test I have done have been on the racing hard compounds on cars with BoP engaged as that is what is prevalent in the current crop of Sport races. I would expect a a major spin of at least 2 complete 360 degree rotations to have more of an effect on tire life as would be experienced in the real world but I in no way saw evidence of such in my runs initiating such intentional abuse.

With RH tires the amount of difference I saw in tire life from driving flat out late braking hard on the throttle out versus easier in, smoother through with gradual throttle out to eliminate what should be the tire killing "squeal" that is all the game gives as an indication of pushing grip levels was not enough to warrant the easier driving style for just a factor of improving tire life and nothing else.

This was just what I felt in my playing around only and does not go further than that. Trying the same type of things with different cars within a class I could plainly see the difference in tire wear over a period of laps between cars but again not so much in difference in driving styles on the same car.

It may have made a minuscule amount of difference but no where near the difference it should make.

Even abusing the tires constantly running up on curbs and so forth versus not doing such should greatly affect tire life and grip and again it does not seem to make a difference within game.

I find that to be a disappointment because a driver that drives a style that takes care of his equipment is not adequately rewarded for the smooth driving over a driver that employs a "drive it like you stole it" say over the 10 lap distance which is the currently longest sport race we have.

With exaggerated 9x tire wear employed in the 10 lap races conserving tire by driving styles should be noticeable as well.

It does appear that a very simple tire physics model is what is prevalent in this game as compared to some other titles I have played in the past where a 1/2 lb of difference in air pressure affected grip, car handling characteristics,tire temps at race pace and overall tire grip life.

 

[MatskiMonk]

I think that if the game pushed the idea of tyres being different and having different characteristics, it would help people be better drivers, learn that braking zones aren't binary and that tyre wear is important and can be managed/helped.

The game already does this in a fashion that caters to the majority of players with the different compounds they offer now. I'd wager it's likely that the only people who would notice and understand subtle changes between manufacturers across similar compounds, would be the same people that would also see straight past GT's tyre model and still want other things like pressure, temps, cross/bias ply modelling etc. etc., Without those things and a more detail tyre simulation to use them, I still believe that it would have little, to no value. It's just my two cents - but then I am quite cynical.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

The game already does this in a fashion that caters to the majority of players with the different compounds they offer now. I'd wager it's likely that the only people who would notice and understand subtle changes between manufacturers across similar compounds, would be the same people that would also see straight past GT's tyre model and still want other things like pressure, temps, cross/bias ply modelling etc. etc., Without those things and a more detail tyre simulation to use them, I still believe that it would have little, to no value. It's just my two cents - but then I am quite cynical.

Tires are the only contact of the car with the ground; they're just as important in setting up as a suspension. However, I think that more tire manufacturers are redundant and inconsistent with PD's way of thinking. If tire manufacturers would be added, then why not a variety of race transmissions as well? (AHEM fully customizable H pattern manual AHEMAHEM) Or a variety of brakes? (If they even add the option to upgrade it) Another inconsistency is that we'll probably have access to only one of the manufacturers in Sport mode as it stands now. But the option of tire settings would be great- imagine how much more refined the tunes of tuning legends like praiano and motor city hami would be!

 

[ASH32]

Similar thing, but more extreme - I'm reasonably sure that I've been pulled off track by someone going off in front of me. A couple of times at Sheene Curve at Brands Hatch for example - I guess it doesn't take much to be dragged a little wide on the exit there, and it's quite a fast corner. Even maybe once at Stirlings Bend, although that may have been more a case of monkey see monkey do It seems to happen when someone goes off at high speed, having totally missed their braking point - it's not very common at DR A, so catches me out when it happens.

So... I'm not sure if any understeer is down to dirty air, or just slipstream effect.

Yes it happens, I once even went off when I had come off the accelerator completely, following the other car into the gravel, my car sped up and just wouldn't turn. I've also had the steering go all weak causing me to spin many times when behind cars sliding all over the place. Lag probably factors in here too, the handling is definitely worse when near low bar players.

 

[Shottah072]

I dont think ive ever seen a sim with different tire brands. Tire models are very complicated and in most sims they make continues changes to it. Making different tire brand models is gonna make it even more complicated. IMO better stick to one 'brand' and just focus on improving that with different grip and wear levels and what not.

 

[MatskiMonk]

But the option of tire settings would be great- imagine how much more refined the tunes of tuning legends like praiano and motor city hami would be!

An option is only as good as the simulation behind it.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Tires are the only contact of the car with the ground; they're just as important in setting up as a suspension. However, I think that more tire manufacturers are redundant and inconsistent with PD's way of thinking. If tire manufacturers would be added, then why not a variety of race transmissions as well? (AHEM fully customizable H pattern manual AHEMAHEM) Or a variety of brakes? (If they even add the option to upgrade it) Another inconsistency is that we'll probably have access to only one of the manufacturers in Sport mode as it stands now. But the option of tire settings would be great- imagine how much more refined the tunes of tuning legends like praiano and motor city hami would be!

What we actually have here is a game where currently in the online racing the only actual personalization or improvement allowed to the car driven is the ability for a custom paint job or livery. Otherwise under the current system we have no control over settings which can affect handling or even a simple choice of which in game currently available tire compounds to employ which in 10 lap races with exaggerated tire wear could greatly come into play for an individuals race strategy.

The game has its good points but its simplicity and lack of allowing a gamer to tweak and change things within class rules is also making the game elevate itself to being in a premature state of being the same old thing day after day and and boring to the levels of choosing a different game to play instead of spending the hours enjoying tweaking to make a car better for your driving style at a track you like for the next online race.

Shame really as there is so much potential behind locked and unavailable settings of content already in the game.

 

[kilesa4568]

I was going to make a new thread for this but it fits (sort of...) OK here. Sorry for the OT.

On the subject of tires, do the four tire indicators change colour when you heat them up? I'm colour blind and can't see any difference in them when I spin the tires up or lean on them too hard.

 

[Scaff]

An option is only as good as the simulation behind it.

Indeed.

GT needs to get some of the basics of the tyre model right before throwing different brands with different characteristics into the mix.

Give us tyre pressures, correct heat cycles, flat spots, and differing tyre compounds that actually work as they should (so soft tyres that don;t just give more grip under all circumstances, but soft tyres that overheat and get eaten at a stupidly high rate when the track temp is too high).

I dont think ive ever seen a sim with different tire brands. Tire models are very complicated and in most sims they make continues changes to it. Making different tire brand models is gonna make it even more complicated. IMO better stick to one 'brand' and just focus on improving that with different grip and wear levels and what not.

Forza had them back in either the original or FM2, however it was simply a cosmetic thing.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

I was going to make a new thread for this but it fits (sort of...) OK here. Sorry for the OT.

On the subject of tires, do the four tire indicators change colour when you heat them up? I'm colour blind and can't see any difference in them when I spin the tires up or lean on them too hard.

No they just show overall tire wear, no indicators in game regarding tire temps.

 

[kilesa4568]

No they just show overall tire wear, no indicators in game regarding tire temps.

Seems a strange omission but thank you for the answer.👍

 

[zzz_pt]

I do know from RL track experience on two wheels that brand a "A" DOT race tire would be fully up to racing temp by turn 7 on a particular course while the brand "B" equivalent rubber compound would take a full lap to to reach the same initial level of grip.

Also brand "A" required a different rear suspension set up to prevent cold tearing from brand "B" and manufacturer recommended air pressures would be different as well. Over a race distance there was not a lot of difference in grip life of the two tires but there were definitely a difference in the feedback feeling between the two tires and some racers preferred one over the other.

Carcass construction and differences in stiffness of such has about as much to do with different brands of a tires behavior in a certain "class" of tires between tire manufacturers as does the difference in the actual comparable soft, medium and hard rubber compounds between the brands.

I understand that in real life motorsports some drivers might feel safer and more comfortable with a progressive tire. But in a game, why choose the tire that will only be up to race temperature after 15 corners when you can have one that will have the same effect at corner 7?

I think compounds are more than enough in GTS tbh. If PD didn't manage to make a decent tire model and FFB with only one type of tyre (with several compounds), I can't imagine the mess it would be with several tire brands with different characteristics.

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Seems a strange omission but thank you for the answer.👍

I agree as the game has been fun but now after several months the omissions of such important information, the locking down all tuning, even tire compound choices in pit stop races to keep things so simple "a cave man can do it" mentality and the penalty and matchmaking systems that that needs many adjustments and changes to remotely work as intended is relegating this game to being played less and less by many that actually really enjoy racing games as the simple repetition only keeps interest for so long.

Shame really, a lot of potential in the concept originally offered up.

 

[Alpha Cipher]

An option is only as good as the simulation behind it.

Good point

 

[VFOURMAX1]

I understand that in real life motorsports some drivers might feel safer and more comfortable with a progressive tire. But in a game, why choose the tire that will only be up to race temperature after 15 corners when you can have one that will have the same effect at corner 7?

Because if that tire choice that takes 15 corners to come up to full temp will give you full pace grip without dropping off a full 8 laps in a exaggerated x9 tire wear race of 10 laps over the tire that is fully up to temp in 7 corners is only giving that same full grip level for 5 full laps then that 8 lap tire will have much less drop off in grip over full race distance and the difference without a pit stop while the second tire requires a pit mid way through the race may be much closer.

Does the quicker full grip in the first lap warrant the earlier extra drop off and the time lost on track in the pits?

Get even more interesting is a third option soft tire that is up to temp turn 1 and good for about 3 laps max before fully shagged, combine the second full lap to temp tire option and a late stop with 2 laps left for full out drive it like you stole it pace to the end, what strategy do you pick then?

Adding options for different strategies gives cars and drivers with different traits and styles more options to attempt to contend to the end, longevity of any game depends on remaining interesting not falling into a same old thing routine and getting stale to warrant not keeping the interest level higher for longer.

The original post was really an answer to your post of " How so? How can you make things not equal and get rig of advantages/disadvantages?"
Every advantage in one area has to come with a cost of being a disadvantage in another area to equal each out over the long haul. Even the RL example given even though different in many characteristics over a full race distance both of those tires were capable of giving the same performance and end results over a full race distance.

What examples I propose would not require different tire brands and could well be implemented with just differences in compound choices IF the tire physics model was advanced enough in nature to take into account the abuse a tire was subjected to enduring overheating by driving styles and abuse of spins , curbs ect.

Without those factors affecting a tires grip life and longevity you will never have anything close to representing true differences of on track performance which includes driving style and abuses to the tire or lack of such as would be represented in the real world.

I do not think currently the tire physics model used in GTS shows the capabilities for this by what has been shown so far.

 

[baldgye]

An option is only as good as the simulation behind it.

Yeah this is a pretty solid point.

But I will point out that the races I’ve done in Sport mode with tyre wear have have people doing various strategies. With different levels of success (least from my limited first hand experience). I did a couple at Suzuka and managed to win one and get a podium on the other for doing the opposite strategy to the people in front of me.
While I agree that people could brute force the best path, if these races are only up for a day and each time they slightly change, it’ll give advantage to the person who understands the tyres they are using, rather than simply ‘which is the best’.


With that said I agree with you and @Scaff in that the physics aren’t the best and the fact there is almlst no tyre data available makes it harder.
But even the poor tyre physics in older F1 games played some part of the racing.

 

[Outspacer]

I've noticed this, but I feel like it is monkey-see-monkey-do. People making mistakes causing mistakes of people trailing them trying to follow their line too closely.

Most times I'm satisfied to put it down to that, particularly if we're both on the racing line and I'm expecting them to make the corner. But sometimes it just seems that that can't explain what's happened completely.

Yes it happens, I once even went off when I had come off the accelerator completely, following the other car into the gravel, my car sped up and just wouldn't turn. I've also had the steering go all weak causing me to spin many times when behind cars sliding all over the place. Lag probably factors in here too, the handling is definitely worse when near low bar players.

I'll have to watch out for the lag bar... I've certainly noticed that some are easier to follow closely than others.

 

[zzz_pt]

Because if that tire choice that takes 15 corners to come up to full temp will give you full pace grip without dropping off a full 8 laps in a exaggerated x9 tire wear race of 10 laps over the tire that is fully up to temp in 7 corners is only giving that same full grip level for 5 full laps then that 8 lap tire will have much less drop off in grip over full race distance and the difference without a pit stop while the second tire requires a pit mid way through the race may be much closer.

Then the second tire brand is useless and everyone would use the first brand (we were talking about different brands of tires). That's the point. And for those differences we already have different compounds.

Does the quicker full grip in the first lap warrant the earlier extra drop off and the time lost on track in the pits?

That's basically different compounds, is it not?

Get even more interesting is a third option soft tire that is up to temp turn 1 and good for about 3 laps max before fully shagged, combine the second full lap to temp tire option and a late stop with 2 laps left for full out drive it like you stole it pace to the end, what strategy do you pick then?

I fail to see how this is any different than allowing all the compounds in a race. Again, we were talking about each brand o tire (of the 8 or 10 that are in the game) to have different characteristics for each compound. That's a lot of variables that, IMO, are ridiculous when you can get pretty good and challenging tire strategies with the compounds that already exist in the game. That combined with how you take care of your tires, can make a stint last for 7 or 12 laps depending on how you drive.

Adding options for different strategies gives cars and drivers with different traits and styles more options to attempt to contend to the end, longevity of any game depends on remaining interesting not falling into a same old thing routine and getting stale to warrant not keeping the interest level higher for longer.

Any other sim does it? I don't think so. Different compounds, if available in Sport Mode would allow people to make various different tire strategies. If races were 50% longer that would be even better.

The original post was really an answer to your post of " How so? How can you make things not equal and get rig of advantages/disadvantages?"

I was referring to different tire models for each compound for each brand. If a brand had better soft tires for a particular track/race, everyone who wanted to be competitive would use it. It happens with cars already.

Every advantage in one area has to come with a cost of being a disadvantage in another area to equal each out over the long haul. Even the RL example given even though different in many characteristics over a full race distance both of those tires were capable of giving the same performance and end results over a full race distance.

What examples I propose would not require different tire brands and could well be implemented with just differences in compound choices IF the tire physics model was advanced enough in nature to take into account the abuse a tire was subjected to enduring overheating by driving styles and abuse of spins , curbs ect.

Without those factors affecting a tires grip life and longevity you will never have anything close to representing true differences of on track performance which includes driving style and abuses to the tire or lack of such as would be represented in the real world.

I do not think currently the tire physics model used in GTS shows the capabilities for this by what has been shown so far.

But I was talking about different brands(!). Key word being brands. If PD just added another sub group of Soft Tires (say, RS-a, RS-b and RS-c) that's another conversation. That would work for every brand (the brand is there just as decoration).

 

[VFOURMAX1]

Then the second tire brand is useless and everyone would use the first brand (we were talking about different brands of tires). That's the point. And for those differences we already have different compounds.

I understand that in real life motorsports some drivers might feel safer and more comfortable with a progressive tire. But in a game, why choose the tire that will only be up to race temperature after 15 corners when you can have one that will have the same effect at corner 7?

I think compounds are more than enough in GTS tbh. If PD didn't manage to make a decent tire model and FFB with only one type of tyre (with several compounds), I can't imagine the mess it would be with several tire brands with different characteristics.

What examples I propose would not require different tire brands and could well be implemented with just differences in compound choices

Basically you answered every aspect of my post with the exact same answer that I had already put in the post which was about the only part of my original post you seem to have left out!

That different brands were not needed only different compounds with different characteristics.

My answer to you was to the question of why a person would not choose the tire that was up to temp in 7 corners and instead choose the tire that was up to temp in 15 corners.

The conversation was then of why someone may possibly choose 1 tire over the next. Not once did my answer refer to brand x or brand z only to tire a or b which I clearly stated in my answer only required different compounds not brands.

Whether you want to list a different tire option of being brand x, y or z or just call the same options compound hard, medium or soft other than the names the results remain the same.

 

[Manasseh257NSX]

I actually like the idea of different tire brands having differences in car characteristics. However, I believe that would be difficult to implement and as Scaff said, it would be unwise for PD to jump to something that complicated without doing the basics..

Showing tyre pressure, Tyre temperature, flat spots, etc. Etc.

Not to mention, people would just abuse the most grippy set of tyres in Sport mode (As others have said) due to the fact that Sport mode prohibits any tuning of any kind even though tuning and tweaked settings will bring a more diverese field and argubly even faster times since people change settings to better accommodate their driving style and the track they're racing on.

 

[lav01]

I would like to see tire temps and not just red wear. You can overheat your tires in real life. Also, since they already have certain 'make' races, they could do specific brand tire events also (read: sponsorship $). I would assume there is some type of contracts with manufacturers, TAG (worthless in my opinion), etc.... already. Have a bridgestone, good(bad... b/c their tires suck in real life, one heat cycle and they are junk, but I digress) year, yokohama, firestone, etc.

A data logger would be great, there is just so much in previous versions that they just left out. Cars, tracks, tuning options, racing options. The main thing I personally dont like is almost all the race cars are close to the same, they just look different. They are really lacking on non-race cars also.

 

[John Crellin]

It's a rectangle around the tire icon that goes in a gradient from blue when cold <- grey when optimal -> red when hot.

I found this in another thread. I haven't noticed before. I always thought it was just a traction indicator.

Is this true?

 

[kilesa4568]

If there's a rectangle around them, it must be hair thin as I haven't seen it.

I thought there might be one though as Kaz tells Hamilton he needs to back off on one of the reference laps in the Nurb video. I figured it was experience telling him the tires were hot, not an indicator, as all I saw were the tire icons staying white.

It looks like I'm out of luck with that feature if it's true.

 

[John Crellin]

If there's a rectangle around them, it must be hair thin as I haven't seen it.

I thought there might be one though as Kaz tells Hamilton he needs to back off on one of the reference laps in the Nurb video. I figured it was experience telling him the tires were hot, not an indicator, as all I saw were the tire icons staying white.

It looks like I'm out of luck with that feature if it's true.

Have you noticed the red boxes that flash when the tires lose traction and spin? I am at work so i cannot confirm if they are blue or grey ever. I only notice them when i lose control at full throttle.

 

[Scaff]

Have you noticed the red boxes that flash when the tires lose traction and spin? I am at work so i cannot confirm if they are blue or grey ever. I only notice them when i lose control at full throttle.

I can confirm that they do flash red from time to time.

It's a functional but very basic feature, what we need is details of pressure for each tyre, and temps for the three zones of each tyre.

 

[John Crellin]

I can confirm that they do flash red from time to time.

It's a functional but very basic feature, what we need is details of pressure for each tyre, and temps for the three zones of each tyre.

I guess that answers my question.... so no blue or grey? bummer...

 

[kilesa4568]

Have you noticed the red boxes that flash when the tires lose traction and spin? I am at work so i cannot confirm if they are blue or grey ever. I only notice them when i lose control at full throttle.

I'm probably too far (10 feet) from the TV to see it but if there's no colour change happening, there's no real disadvantage. I can live with that.

Cheers bud.

 

[MatskiMonk]

and temps for the three zones of each tyre.

Out of curiosity, is that a thing in the real world? I know you can get live temp/pressure monitors, and I know post race tyre temp checks can tell you basically anything, but does this represent a real feature, or just one that is in other games?

 

[Scaff]

Out of curiosity, is that a thing in the real world? I know you can get live temp/pressure monitors, and I know post race tyre temp checks can tell you basically anything, but does this represent a real feature, or just one that is in other games?

Yep, but only in reality for the bigger boys.

https://www.highpowermedia.com/blog/3908/tyre-temperature-sensors