Abortion

[HenrySwanson]

Interesting report on whether we should consider foetal pain when performing abortions:

https://blogs.bmj.com/medical-ethics/2020/01/15/fetal-pain-and-abortion/

 

[BobK]

I would think that caving in the skull of a fetus in the birth canal and sucking the brains out would be painful, at least in the beginning.

 

[PocketZeven]

Interesting report on whether we should consider foetal pain when performing abortions:

https://blogs.bmj.com/medical-ethics/2020/01/15/fetal-pain-and-abortion/

I would think that caving in the skull of a fetus in the birth canal and sucking the brains out would be painful, at least in the beginning.

A foetus has not yet fully developed a skull or brain. The article does not address if a foetus actually does or does not feel pain, but just adresses it should be researched further. The article it references concludes it is unknown.

 

[HenrySwanson]

A foetus has not yet fully developed a skull or brain. The article does not address if a foetus actually does or does not feel pain, but just adresses it should be researched further. The article it references concludes it is unknown.

To be honest I don't think we will ever know if it does, although the authors conclude we should have a discussion about it which seems entirely reasonable.

 

[Danoff]

I don't understand what exactly pain has to do with the presence of human rights. Lots of things feel pain. Pain is used is assessing damage in a case where human rights are already determined to exist.

 

[PocketZeven]

To be honest I don't think we will ever know if it does, although the authors conclude we should have a discussion about it which seems entirely reasonable.

No, personally I dont think so. I dont see the benefit of knowing if a foetus feels pain or not benefitial to my life.

 

[Dotini]

A foetus has not yet fully developed a skull or brain. The article does not address if a foetus actually does or does not feel pain, but just adresses it should be researched further. The article it references concludes it is unknown.

When my brother's first child was born, the skull was prematurely knitted together, precluding normal growth of the skull. My brother insisted the physicians rectify this. They took hammers and chisels and broke the skull into the requisite number of pieces. The boy lived, attended but never graduated school, has spent time in and out of prison, and has been a constant source of pain, expense and worry for his parents.

 

[TexRex]

The boy lived, attended but never graduated school, has spent time in and out of prison, and has been a constant source of pain, expense and worry for his parents.

Have you spoken to him about meaning and purpose?

 

[Famine]

When my brother's first child was born...

... he stopped being a foetus and had no relevance to this thread.

 

[HenrySwanson]

No, personally I dont think so. I dont see the benefit of knowing if a foetus feels pain or not benefitial to my life.

I do for a few reasons:

1) We use anaesthesia for certain foetal procedures
2) We add a drug (Midazolam) for lethal injections to lower consciousness levels
3) Animals are (generally) stunned before slaughter

 

[PocketZeven]

When my brother's first child was born, the skull was prematurely knitted together, precluding normal growth of the skull. My brother insisted the physicians rectify this. They took hammers and chisels and broke the skull into the requisite number of pieces. The boy lived, attended but never graduated school, has spent time in and out of prison, and has been a constant source of pain, expense and worry for his parents.

What does that have to do with abortion and foetuses?

I do for a few reasons:

1) We use anaesthesia for certain foetal procedures
2) We add a drug (Midazolam) for lethal injections to lower consciousness levels
3) Animals are (generally) stunned before slaughter

1) Anaesthesia for the woman or the foetus?
2) Lethal injections? Like in the death sentence?
3) A foetus is not an animal.

 

[HenrySwanson]

What does that have to do with abortion and foetuses?



1) Anaesthesia for the woman or the foetus?
2) Lethal injections? Like in the death sentence?
3) A foetus is not an animal.

1) Both
2) Yes
3) Correct. It's a human life

 

[TexRex]

You establish that a fetus feels pain--or even merely suggest that it may--as a means to guilt women into not getting an abortion. More importantly, to guilt lawmakers into criminalizing abortion.

 

[PocketZeven]

1) Both
2) Yes
3) Correct. It's a human life

1) To my knowledge that is not true.
2) What does the death sentence have to with abortion?
3) Again what does animals being stunned for slaughter have to do with abortions?

 

[Danoff]

3) Again what does animals being stunned for slaughter have to do with abortions?

He's trying to say that in general it's humane to spare all animals (including fetuses) pain, even if they lack rights and are to be terminated. It's not exactly an argument for or against abortion, but around the implementation of abortions.

 

[PocketZeven]

He's trying to say that in general it's humane to spare all animals (including fetuses) pain, even if they lack rights and are to be terminated. It's not exactly an argument for or against abortion, but around the implementation of abortions.

When removing foetuses of animals are the foetuses stunned too?

 

[Danoff]

When removing foetuses of animals are the foetuses stunned too?

I don't really know how often non-human animal abortions are performed. It seems... niche...

 

[PocketZeven]

I don't really know how often non-human animal abortions are performed. It seems... niche...

I am confused. Is he still making the assumption that futeses feel pain?

 

[Danoff]

I am confused. Is he still making the assumption that futeses feel pain?

I think the concept proposed (disjointedly) was if fetuses feel pain, we should consider requiring humane measures for (human) abortion.

 

[PocketZeven]

I think the concept proposed (disjointedly) was if fetuses feel pain, we should consider requiring humane measures for (human) abortion.

Didnt the article he posted conclude that concept is unproven? I believe fetuses only begin to develop a brain after 24 weeks.

 

[Danoff]

Didnt the article he posted conclude that concept is unproven? I believe fetuses only begin to develop a brain after 24 weeks.

It's almost inescapably true that a fetus feels pain at some point in development. Babies don't develop the ability to feel pain after they are born. Premature babies definitely have a sense of touch. At what stage, and at what level, is left to be determined. It is also almost inescapably true that pain cannot be sensed before a certain stage in development. A recently fertilized embryo definitely lacks any ability to sense what we'd recognize as pain.

 

[HenrySwanson]

1) To my knowledge that is not true.
2) What does the death sentence have to with abortion?
3) Again what does animals being stunned for slaughter have to do with abortions?

1) It's in the actual paper (apologies I thought I linked to it as well as the blog post in the original post):

https://jme.bmj.com/content/46/1/3?...ampaign=jme&utm_content=toc&utm_term=15012020

The other points are addressed by Danoff

You establish that a fetus feels pain--or even merely suggest that it may--as a means to guilt women into not getting an abortion. More importantly, to guilt lawmakers into criminalizing abortion.

Maybe some, but I think it should be more a question of "should we provide pain relief during the procedure".

To not discuss it at all because of your fears is ethically wrong I'd argue

 

[PocketZeven]

1) It's in the actual paper (apologies I thought I linked to it as well as the blog post in the original post):

https://jme.bmj.com/content/46/1/3?...ampaign=jme&utm_content=toc&utm_term=15012020

The other points are addressed by Danoff


Maybe some, but I think it should be more a question of "should we provide pain relief during the procedure".

To not discuss it at all because of your fears is ethically wrong I'd argue

You are misreading again. Danoff did not adress it.

 

[HenrySwanson]

A few posts above basically says what I was hinting at, only more eloquently. We kill animals and execute criminals humanely - why not foetuses..

It's arguing about the process of abortion, not on if it's right or wrong

 

[PocketZeven]

A few posts above basically says what I was hinting at, only more eloquently. We kill animals and execute criminals humanely - why not foetuses..

It's arguing about the process of abortion, not on if it's right or wrong

Those are not comparable. I adressed the absense of developed brains.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Those are not comparable. I adressed the absense of developed brains.

If you read the full paper you'll see they discuss that (basically a fully developed cerebral cortex may not be necessary to feel pain)

 

[PocketZeven]

If you read the full paper you'll see they discuss that (basically a fully developed cerebral cortex may not be necessary to feel pain)

I read it. And no there was no conclusion that fetusses feel pain. You are misrepresenting the paper. Suggesting that fetusses might feel pain because it was "called in to question" on the basis of research on patients missing most of the cortical areas. In other words, research on fully grown human beings with brains.

It is good to do research about it, but "killing" animals is not comparable to an abortion and suggesting criminals are executed "humanely" is a whole other thread on itself.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Erm, how am I misrepresenting it. I never offered definite conclusions only suggested that we should have a discussion about it - something the authors concluded too....

 

[PocketZeven]

Erm, how am I misrepresenting it. I never offered definite conclusions only suggested that we should have a discussion about it - something the authors concluded too....

Then discuss the issue with possible pain in fetuses. Do not compare killing animals (for consumption) and executing a criminal (death sentence) with an abortion.

 

[HenrySwanson]

Why can't I compare those things, which were, if you remember, said in response to you stating that you don't see the benefit of finding out if foetuses feel pain.

Why should foetal pain (if it exists) in your mind be considered differently to those examples I presented?

EDIT: I thought more about your point of view and translated it to how we treat insects, eventually finding something (I found) interesting:


So, given that we can’t be sure whether insects experience pain, how should we treat these creatures? When I was teaching insect anatomy and physiology I insisted that the students anesthetized insects before conducting experiments that we would expect to inflict pain on a mouse. My rationale is two-fold.

First, it seems ethically obligatory to guard against the possibility that insects feel pain. If we use anesthetic and it turns out that insects don’t experience pain, the material cost of our mistake is very low (a few extra minutes to apply cold or carbon dioxide). However, if we don’t use anesthetic and it turns out that the insects were in agony, then the moral cost of our mistake is quite high.

Second, I think that treating insects as if they can experience pain cultivates an attitude of respect toward living organisms. And this seems like a good thing. We learn the methods of dissection through practices—and we also learn virtues such as compassion through practice. Perhaps we become overly careful in our actions by including animals that aren’t sentient, but a world that is more mindful of other beings than is strictly necessary is okay with me.


https://blog.oup.com/2011/11/bug-pain/